Historical pics

[elkwc]

Jul 30, 2017 16:11:16 GMT -6 Glenn said:

Jul 29, 2017 17:32:21 GMT -6 Carlos (frmaiz) said:

More recent History.


MSU BT ADVANCER 056

Particularly Ugly. Typical of getting eggheads involved with cattle breeding..

My thoughts also Glenn. I had decided to stay quite. This bull is an example of why Herefords lost ground and sadly I see some similar today. Those who breed by what the paper shows them turn out animals similar in stature. 

[tartancowgirl]

Jul 30, 2017 14:40:31 GMT -6 woodford said:

A few years ago, a Hereford Breeder's daughter was here for a visit. She was a retired school teacher and had been away from the Hereford breed and rural life for 20-30 years. She was feeling nostalgic, and asked to see a Hereford World so she could see examples of the breed.

 After looking for about 30 seconds, she looked up and exclaimed, " My God, if we had raised something like that, we would have butchered it as soon as possible!"

I might suggest the same for some of the above.

Many modern Herefords in the UK trace back to at least one of those....

[Glenn]

I believe this is a foundation cow at Miles City. Not 100% sure.

Gray Field Nell 4

Attachments:

[Glenn]

[larso]

Aug 11, 2017 8:32:35 GMT -6 Glenn said:

Glenn, could you also put up the comments that LL made about this cow and the program of L1's , it was a interesting read and I wondered what HT members would think of it? Obviously only if you want to .

[Glenn]

I don't think Larry made any comments on this cow. Mike Keeney made a comment(s) about the L1 program but not this cow specifically, I don't believe.

[Glenn]

And he incorrectly spelled the name (perhaps on purpose?) so it took a bit of digging to find the actual name in the Hereford database.

[Glenn]

Here is the whole thing from FB, on rereading it, perhaps he is relaying what Larry said. Not super clear.

>>After Brent McClayland sent me this picture of Greyfeld Nell, circa 1925, I searched out these comments again from LL regarding fertility, selection, and closed herd breeding...a longer read, if you are a cattle breeder, you have time
We know that during their formative years, Herefords, Angus and Shorthorns were primarily bred for" beef", but cows must've been important or keeping track of cow families would not have been initiated. .For those of you who couldn't attend the last KC gathering at Miles City, please know I was especially intrigued by one of the very first slides presented to us at the Fort Keogh Research Station. It stated that the initial purpose in the 1920's and 30's was to develop lines for crossing in order to produce higher yielding hybrids similar to the successful methodology then being practiced by corn breeders. Whatever their initial selection criteria was in each of the several lines, the only line that survived to date were the Line 1's and 80 or 90 years later, to my knowledge that initial purpose has not been implemented. Could it have been their selection criteria?
However, we were shown maps that illustrated the infusion of the Line 1's is in over 50% of the Hereford breed's ancestry today.....some think the Line 1's were the major contributor to the salvation of the Hereford breed in North America. Without question to that extent, the Line 1's have been very successful in serving a purpose. Are they going "too far"? Today, the research team at Ft. Keough still maintains the first priority of selection which is maximizing yearling weight.....but the current team expressed their concern with the lowering trend of fertility and increase in birthweights.....we were told that less than 80% of the cows are getting rebred. Fearing possible extinction, the current team is trying to ascertain whether the problem is management or genetic. I had to smile when we learned that the "management teams" salary was based on the sales of the cattle, that they wouldn't breed their own cattle "that way".
Based on my observations of many different cattle over the years, I believe the problem is simply the natural consequence of the "Line 1" selection priority. However, while we were told the YW trend is still going up after 80 years. I am convinced that the SURVIVING females tend to slow down the advances in "growth" contributed by the males and that the Line 1's would become extinct before they could ever reach the maximum limits of the Line 1's growth potential.
Losing strong sexual distinction between the sexes, they have had to rely on sustaining variation in this ongoing battle which allows nature to uphold reproduction from the functional females within the variance of the distributions..... these surviving females become fewer and fewer over time, thereby lowering their average conception rates. I've also experienced this natural reaction in my herd....so from the 80 years of research results of constant selection criteria, Fort Keogh has at least reaffirmed that much.
My limited observations of the surviving Line 1 cow herd was as expected, that they were quite acceptable functional cows. What would have been much more interesting to see would've been all the non-survivors over the years....
By the way, has anyone noticed the industry has recently created new EPD for stayability ......I wonder why?<<

And I am almost 100% sure that Danny Miller was present at this event so he could perhaps give his take.

[Glenn]

And as far as selection criteria, I have asked several people there and can't get a straight answer. I don't think it is as simple as "maximizing yearling weight".

In fact originally the stated purpose was to "maximizing post weaning gain" which is not EXACTLY the same as "maximizing yearling weight".

But in modern days, the best answer that I get is "the current needs for the station's ongoing research projects", and as we know these cattle are used in several projects that have to do with crossbreeding and with pasture and feed management experiments so there could be myriad selection criteria.

[redgem]

Frist question I'd have would be how much of the fertility problem is feed related when that's part of there research and how much is genetic.

[mrvictordomino]

Aug 11, 2017 14:58:14 GMT -6 Glenn said:

Here is the whole thing from FB, on rereading it, perhaps he is relaying what Larry said. Not super clear.

>>After Brent McClayland sent me this picture of Greyfeld Nell, circa 1925, I searched out these comments again from LL regarding fertility, selection, and closed herd breeding...a longer read, if you are a cattle breeder, you have time
We know that during their formative years, Herefords, Angus and Shorthorns were primarily bred for" beef", but cows must've been important or keeping track of cow families would not have been initiated. .For those of you who couldn't attend the last KC gathering at Miles City, please know I was especially intrigued by one of the very first slides presented to us at the Fort Keogh Research Station. It stated that the initial purpose in the 1920's and 30's was to develop lines for crossing in order to produce higher yielding hybrids similar to the successful methodology then being practiced by corn breeders. Whatever their initial selection criteria was in each of the several lines, the only line that survived to date were the Line 1's and 80 or 90 years later, to my knowledge that initial purpose has not been implemented. Could it have been their selection criteria?
However, we were shown maps that illustrated the infusion of the Line 1's is in over 50% of the Hereford breed's ancestry today.....some think the Line 1's were the major contributor to the salvation of the Hereford breed in North America. Without question to that extent, the Line 1's have been very successful in serving a purpose. Are they going "too far"? Today, the research team at Ft. Keough still maintains the first priority of selection which is maximizing yearling weight.....but the current team expressed their concern with the lowering trend of fertility and increase in birthweights.....we were told that less than 80% of the cows are getting rebred. Fearing possible extinction, the current team is trying to ascertain whether the problem is management or genetic. I had to smile when we learned that the "management teams" salary was based on the sales of the cattle, that they wouldn't breed their own cattle "that way".
Based on my observations of many different cattle over the years, I believe the problem is simply the natural consequence of the "Line 1" selection priority. However, while we were told the YW trend is still going up after 80 years. I am convinced that the SURVIVING females tend to slow down the advances in "growth" contributed by the males and that the Line 1's would become extinct before they could ever reach the maximum limits of the Line 1's growth potential.
Losing strong sexual distinction between the sexes, they have had to rely on sustaining variation in this ongoing battle which allows nature to uphold reproduction from the functional females within the variance of the distributions..... these surviving females become fewer and fewer over time, thereby lowering their average conception rates. I've also experienced this natural reaction in my herd....so from the 80 years of research results of constant selection criteria, Fort Keogh has at least reaffirmed that much.
My limited observations of the surviving Line 1 cow herd was as expected, that they were quite acceptable functional cows. What would have been much more interesting to see would've been all the non-survivors over the years....
By the way, has anyone noticed the industry has recently created new EPD for stayability ......I wonder why?<<

And I am almost 100% sure that Danny Miller was present at this event so he could perhaps give his take.

Glenn, you are correct, I was with the KC gathering that included the station visit. I had an allergic reaction to some beef I had ate in Miles City before the trip to the station (I have the alpha-gal allergy, can't eat any mammal protein anymore) so I was a few minutes late when the slide show started.....Didn't see the cow slide. My opinion on the fertility issue I believe was or is management. I talked to some of the employees on the side and the protocol after A.I. was to turn the cows out into the very large pastures and have only one clean up bull with them. Now these pastures were huge and the cows are scattered pretty much. I just don't think an individual bull could cover that area with the cow herd scattered like they could be. They were going to try and manage a little differently with smaller groups/pastures and see if it helped the conception rates. I don't know of any improvements or conclusions since I have never followed up on the issue. The cow herd I saw back then was very good uddered and functional in my opinion.

[mrvictordomino]

Aug 11, 2017 16:52:44 GMT -6 redgem said:

Frist question I'd have would be how much of the fertility problem is feed related when that's part of there research and how much is genetic.

Just my take, the cow herd sure didn't have anything extra to eat....Pretty hot and dry when I was there. Certainly not pampered.

[Carlos (frmaiz)]

Looks to me that Miles City L1's is pretty much single trait selection. One would expect lower perfomance in others.

[strojanherefords]

Aug 11, 2017 19:12:28 GMT -6 Carlos (frmaiz) said:

Looks to me that Miles City L1's is pretty much single trait selection. One would expect lower perfomance in others.

I have a theory as to why the Hereford breed lost popularity.  Around 1980, there was away from an all around selection, replaced with a single minded emphasis on performance ratios. With this newfound focus on performance, L1 cattle became popular because of the single trait selection for growth and isolation of the rest of the breed.  This worked fine for the first cross but when it was time for the L1 cattle to be mothers things didn't go well and cattlemen found different breeds to use. 

[picketwire]

Havent posted on here in a while as my schedule is about as insane as some of the thinking going on in the world today. I plan on making this short and sweet. I do not plan on defending what Ft Keough has done mgmt wise vs what they have not. I do strongly suggest however that before anyone pass judgement on what they 'think' is going on, or what they 'hear' is going on or even if they have decided they 'know' what is going on, they better consider putting their boots in the 'stuff' at the location and 'see' for themselves what is really going on!

[timbernt]

I couldn't agree more with picketwire. Just because you think you know about an operation doesn't mean you really do. If ou are close to a Hereford breeders, allow a little extra time and stop. We are all proud of what we do and would love to show you around. I have been to some well promoted herds that I felt offered me nothing after seeing them up close. Other herds I didn't expect much really impressed me. If you haven't seen the herd in person, you probably are just gossiping.

[Glenn]

Aug 12, 2017 10:55:47 GMT -6 picketwire said:

Havent posted on here in a while as my schedule is about as insane as some of the thinking going on in the world today. I plan on making this short and sweet. I do not plan on defending what Ft Keough has done mgmt wise vs what they have not. I do strongly suggest however that before anyone pass judgement on what they 'think' is going on, or what they 'hear' is going on or even if they have decided they 'know' what is going on, they better consider putting their boots in the 'stuff' at the location and 'see' for themselves what is really going on!

Is this aimed at me?

[Glenn]

Because my statement was based on phone conversations with 3 direct employees of the station. None of the three could provide me with the herd bull selection criteria. They said it varied from year to year based on the needs of the station's research projects.

[Glenn]

I do find all the "hate" of the research station and their cattle as funny however and the Taylor Swift song quickly enters my mind......

[Glenn]

A couple of things to add that I thought of today regarding Miles City. In my conversations with Station employees, it was stated more that once that one issue in sire selection is doing their best to slow the ever increasing inbreeding coefficient. So a bull may have "higher performance" or better of whatever trait they are looking at but be passed over for a bull that doesn't add as much to the inbreeding coefficient of the progeny.

Another thing that has been repeated to me various times by VARIOUS sources is that the remaining herd is truly a "survival of the fittest" situation. With the management and environment stacked against the cattle the ones that "survive" are truly "survivors". Cream if you will. They have risen to the top over decades of being in the program.

I really should just drop it but am really amazed be the vitriol that some level against the station and the Line Ones. The fact is they are tremendous maternal cattle in spite of (or perhaps because of) the "survival" aspect of the environment/management. No matter what other bloodline you see, when things start going "a little sideways" they all use L1 cattle to "right the ship".

[redgem]

Weather they like the L1 or not they are an out cross that can be used to add genetic diverseity.
The Holstein now in North America almost all trace to 2 bull and they have a small amount of relationship. Part of the problem with cleaning receive out of the breed.
Herefords at least have the L1 to clean up issue. You don't have to like them to know they have a important role to play in future breed development. Don't think I'll ever breed straight L1 but I'm not going to say no to a good bull if theres some L1. Just my opinion.

[Carlos (frmaiz)]

LHR L1 Domino 244

[tff]

Would be interested in pictures of King Ten and Achiever 8403

[Glenn]

Aug 15, 2017 12:34:36 GMT -6 Carlos (frmaiz) said:

LHR L1 Domino 244
View Attachment

Cover bull of 1980 Herd Bull Edition.

[Glenn]

Aug 15, 2017 12:34:36 GMT -6 Carlos (frmaiz) said:

LHR L1 Domino 244

I'd like to see some pics of some Mark Piegan cattle.

This bull in the picture goes on the bottom side to a Mark Piegan 13 who is sired by a Piegan Prince 77.

To tie that to my herd, one of my best cow families goes on the cow line to a double bred Mark Piegan 17, Mark Piegan 17 was also sired by Piegan Prince 77.