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Post by randy on Mar 16, 2019 17:20:51 GMT -6
I am going to say this.... I have researched the pedigrees and researched the pedigrees of the carriers... I cannot even begin to speculate on a single origin source. My intuition says that it is much deeper seated in the breed than anyone might think. I have a hunch that there possibly may be multiple branches of the original origin. Branches that might be 20-40 generation apart.
Breeders are testing cattle in volume to find the source. I feel sorry for those that are having to test volumes of cattle. Every breeder is in this together and need to work together to eliminate it from the breed...
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 17, 2019 14:45:09 GMT -6
Getting a little tiresome ya'll trying to pawn all the problems off on the polled breeders, wouldn't even be a Polled Hereford if it wasn't for the lying no count horned breeders, no doubt the root of some of todays problems. Titan's now a polled problem, funny! It is what it is.....apparently the Polled cattle will be affected to a MUCH larger degree than any Horned Cattle......Like it or not, that's the facts...... I don't have a problem with that, probably gonna be that way moving forward, just so many more using polled today in the mainstream. However, no mention that OnTarget double bred 23D. We will probably never really know, just another polled problem I guess. |
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 17, 2019 14:48:16 GMT -6
Yep, just the Shaw stock that's been sold to other breeders gonna make a real mess for some. Looking through the list at some of the less to me recognizable pedigrees of carriers Titan7777 shows up back there on quite a few of them, is it the same Largent that looks like they have big problems that owned Titan7777 back in the day. Answering your question as far as S Titan 7777. No it is not the same Largent. David Largent and family are L3 Texas then Montana and now Wyoming..... The cattle in question are of Roy or Rust Largent in Texas... Which happen all to be family. Largents In Texas have had both Herefords and Mini Herefords... Ok... For those of you that maybe were not around back then... There are multiple Links to Titan 23D sire of 7777 and many others that were used in the breed.. Those Titan cattle link to a huge number of cattle and some of the most popular cattle today. Thanks Randy! |
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 17, 2019 15:14:48 GMT -6
Then if you dig a little on some of those MSUDC pedigrees that don't seem to add up. L1 Pacesetter pops up, and back checking who used him alot, low and behold it's Shaws, check out the Dams side on a lot of those carriers at Shaws. Yeah I know it's a polled problem.
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 17, 2019 15:21:42 GMT -6
As far as how it entered the Hereford breed, my opinion is the Shorthorn infusion in the polls in the southeast US in the 60s and 70s. That is why it follows the pattern it does. Fixed to what it should have read. As far as how it entered the Hereford breed, my opinion is the Shorthorn infusion by the Horned breeders to get polls in the southeast US in the 60s and 70s. That is why it follows the pattern it does. Question: Why would a polled breeder want to use a Shorthorn, I don't see any benefits. |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 17, 2019 15:26:36 GMT -6
Personally, I’ve always avoided Pacesetter. Even though I’ve like some descendants. And my avoidance has ZERO to do with MSUD. Lol..... like
I said in the ‘tag along breeders’ thread, any success or FAILURES in my (or yours or his or her’s) breeding programs fall on us. Unless you are such a ‘tag along’ that you completely place blame with your personal messianic breeder.
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1780
Fresh Calf
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Post by 1780 on Mar 17, 2019 16:00:44 GMT -6
If you are wanting to know where MSUD came from, quoted below is the preface of a paper written in 1965 which I attached to a previous post (page 2 of this HT thread). If you can identify the carriers referred to in this paper I suggest you will be able to determine how wide spread the disease is. I am sure it can be done but is virtually impossible to do from Aus. If somebody in the US will pick up the challenge I will be very interested to learn the result. THE ORIGINAL HEREFORDS DID NOT CARRY THE DISEASE. As for Jack Wards comment about it being an old Hereford disease. That is BS if your mind is Open enough to accept the breed is supposed to have maintained its breed integrity for nearly 200 years now.
"During recent years we have encountered among newborn Hereford
calves a distinctive neurologic condition characterized clinically
by extensor spasms and inability to stand. Lesions, although varying
in severity, consisted of widespread edema of terminal portions of
myelinated fiber bundles. Access to breeding records of 2 herds has
permitted genetic analysis identifying the disease in those herds as
being of an autosomal recessive mode of transmission. The clinical and
pathologic identity of cases in 8 herds suggests that all be the same genetic
entity".
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 17, 2019 17:30:28 GMT -6
Personally, I’ve always avoided Pacesetter. Even though I’ve like some descendants. And my avoidance has ZERO to do with MSUD. Lol..... like I said in the ‘tag along breeders’ thread, any success or FAILURES in my (or yours or his or her’s) breeding programs fall on us. Unless you are such a ‘tag along’ that you completely place blame with your personal messianic breeder. I've got so many lines in the herd it's hard to pick a favorite.  |
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 17, 2019 17:39:01 GMT -6
If Shorthorn are the problem, what about the rest of their genetic defects. Digital Subluxation, Pulmonary Hypoplasia with Anasarca and Tibial Hemimelia
Doesn't look like they test for MSUD
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Post by timbernt on Mar 17, 2019 17:50:07 GMT -6
I personally have never understood the need for Shorthorn outside of a blueroan cow. But, my friends that were present at the time say it was common. As far as the other defects, didn't most of those come later with the Maine Anjou in the '80s?
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Post by timbernt on Mar 17, 2019 19:33:44 GMT -6
In thinking back about the genetic defects of our US Hereford, Angus, and Shorthorn cattle prior to the '70s there were relatively few lethal congenital anomalies. Then Angus brought in all the Holstein defects, Shorthorn filled up with Maine, and the last generation of Hereford breed leaders decided we needed all that crap in Herefords.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 17, 2019 19:41:46 GMT -6
In thinking back about the genetic defects of our US Hereford, Angus, and Shorthorn cattle prior to the '70s there were relatively few lethal congenital anomalies. Then Angus brought in all the Holstein defects, Shorthorn filled up with Maine, and the last generation of Hereford breed leaders decided we needed all that crap in Herefords. Level of honesty has declined each decade for a while now. Just look at all facets of our society. |
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Post by randy on Mar 17, 2019 21:02:46 GMT -6
Thinking a little today about how this has all unfolded. In 1972 how would this have unfolded? In 1976 we were still looking at out of date herd books to just find cow families. Sometime around 74-75 AHA came out with a spiral ring binder herd book. I still have it somewhere. In the 60s and 70s when we had a problem with an animal they either lived or died. Some of them by bullet just to put them down. We buried them or left them for the coyotes and buzzards depending on the range. We went on our way in trying to survive. It was a different time. The information age really had not arrived until a little later on. My first college computer class was a punch card class that you ran the cards on a huge mainframe IBM. We were hauling cattle in 16 foot bobtail stock trucks or in dads old Autocar semi with a steel 40 foot flat deck. The Madison Type Conference in 68 was really a break through beginning to more understanding. Phone calls were expensive back then and usually short and to the point. We only had a phone starting in the early 60s and had a party line until the mid 70s. Performance records were young. Then Craig Ludwig, and the AHA crew came to Twin Falls for the EPD meetings. Dr GT Easley was there as were some of the OSU crew. They were doing a tour of EPD presentations in each state. I followed them to Minden, Nevada and also took in that presentation.
So thinking about what I have said and what possibly could have happened before my time.. What could have happened when on the range when the Durham cattle were there? What about the longhorns? Etc etc etc.. What if a base carrier came from animals such as HDR Real Onward 166, H&D Tone Lad 105, Prince Domino 9 0r 164? Just what if..
All we are going on now beyond the known carriers is a unconfirmed hypothesis.
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Post by strojanherefords on Mar 17, 2019 22:13:07 GMT -6
Can someone explain to me what exactly the $18 test is? Are we paying for the privilege of reviewing the tests we already paid for? If so the associations made an awful deal on our behalves.
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1780
Fresh Calf
Posts: 51
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Post by 1780 on Mar 17, 2019 23:34:19 GMT -6
Just to add to my comment earlier today, the 1969 paper to which I refer was based on a study conducted in Ontario Canada.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 18, 2019 6:48:55 GMT -6
Can someone explain to me what exactly the $18 test is? Are we paying for the privilege of reviewing the tests we already paid for? If so the associations made an awful deal on our behalves. I think the $18 is for a NEW standalone test for MSUD. If you had an animal test free or carrier during the time period that it was included in the panel (BUT NOT REPORTED TO MEMBERSHIP)they are not charging to now list that status on the pedigree. That's why many of us are seeing some MSUDF animals show up in our inventories. The AHA apparently went to a "cheaper panel" at some point a few years ago so the most recent animals are NOT tested and must be "re-tested" that is where the $18 comes in but it will require a new sample to be sent in, I think. |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 18, 2019 7:17:22 GMT -6
Some clarification from AHA:
IF they still have your sample on file they can re-test from that sample so no need to re-pull hair or blood sample. I think if you send them your list they can tell you if a valid sample is still on file.
Also the date they went to the low density sample that did NOT include the MSUD was around Mid October 2017.
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Post by timbernt on Mar 18, 2019 9:31:59 GMT -6
I talked to my friends who watched the Shorthorn influx into Herefords and they said the reason was the milking Shorthorn to add milk. The timeframe was earlier than I thought. 30's and 40's.
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 18, 2019 11:26:39 GMT -6
I talked to my friends who watched the Shorthorn influx into Herefords and they said the reason was the milking Shorthorn to add milk. The timeframe was earlier than I thought. 30's and 40's. That makes a little more sense to me, especially the time frame. Never could seem to wrap my head around the idea that the earlier breeders were golden then the 70's hit and we're all a bunch of shysters. if has a breed we are as different from OP has the scientist claim it's been going on a lot longer than the last 30 or 40 years imho. |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 18, 2019 13:04:12 GMT -6
More thread drift than anything but saw this on FB today. SH x Hereford steer  |
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Post by randy on Mar 18, 2019 13:51:55 GMT -6
( Not mentioning the gentleman's name.. may he RIP) Who remembers the days (60s-70s) when you could "rent" a "range" bull? I knew of a gentleman that was a cattle buyer and then sale barn owner that leased bulls. He would buy every younger bull that came through the ring and also go to bull sales and buy the unsold bulls off the bottom. He had a manila expanding file that contained dozens of registry papers. Thinking back now he always had the bull someone wanted and the papers to "match". Many small breeders and 4-H projects etc leased a bull from him as it was "cheap". Some of these cattle did end up back in larger herds and some of the herds they came from etc.. A few of those small projects became larger herds.
Who in their area had a "Bull Trader" etc?
Sure happy that we have better tools of identification today.
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alex
Fresh Calf
Posts: 79
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Post by alex on Mar 18, 2019 14:40:20 GMT -6
( Not mentioning the gentleman's name.. may he RIP) Who remembers the days (60s-70s) when you could "rent" a "range" bull? I knew of a gentleman that was a cattle buyer and then sale barn owner that leased bulls. He would buy every younger bull that came through the ring and also go to bull sales and buy the unsold bulls off the bottom. He had a manila expanding file that contained dozens of registry papers. Thinking back now he always had the bull someone wanted and the papers to "match". Many small breeders and 4-H projects etc leased a bull from him as it was "cheap". Some of these cattle did end up back in larger herds and some of the herds they came from etc.. A few of those small projects became larger herds. Who in their area had a "Bull Trader" etc? Sure happy that we have better tools of identification today.  Bank bought this bull and rented him out. |
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Post by timbernt on Mar 18, 2019 20:20:08 GMT -6
The picture Alex posted illustrates how much easier we should have it today. In the background of the Beau Donald bull are 2 bulls (641 and 756) who were blackballed by the Hereford establishment in the 50's because of the Baca breeding in the background. Curtice progeny tested both bulls, but could not overcome the stigma and the Beau Donald cattle were ostracized without reason. We are lucky today to have science to sort these things out. I still want to know the history of cattle I am seeing,however. Contrary to popular belief, Hereford history did not begin when Jack Ward took over the AHA.
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alex
Fresh Calf
Posts: 79
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Post by alex on Mar 19, 2019 5:59:28 GMT -6
The picture Alex posted illustrates how much easier we should have it today. In the background of the Beau Donald bull are 2 bulls (641 and 756) who were blackballed by the Hereford establishment in the 50's because of the Baca breeding in the background. Curtice progeny tested both bulls, but could not overcome the stigma and the Beau Donald cattle were ostracized without reason. We are lucky today to have science to sort these things out. I still want to know the history of cattle I am seeing,however. Contrary to popular belief, Hereford history did not begin when Jack Ward took over the AHA.  MISCHIEF 678 grandson owned by another bank to be leased in 1973. |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 19, 2019 7:25:54 GMT -6
Loving these old pics. Maybe a topic for new thread but could anyone expand on the Beau Donald’s and the apparent story(ies) begins them?
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