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Post by Glenn on Mar 7, 2019 11:35:25 GMT -6
is it just my imagination that a good percent of the 276 listed carriers are sons/daughters of a particular bull that is not listed as a carrier? I assume his sample is at the lab now getting tested?  |
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Post by jjbcattleco on Mar 7, 2019 13:03:38 GMT -6
is it just my imagination that a good percent of the 276 listed carriers are sons/daughters of a particular bull that is not listed as a carrier? I assume his sample is at the lab now getting tested? Then you go a little deeper and it looks like he got it from his daddy. Can't imagine they won't be labeled as carriers. |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 7, 2019 13:27:37 GMT -6
is it just my imagination that a good percent of the 276 listed carriers are sons/daughters of a particular bull that is not listed as a carrier? I assume his sample is at the lab now getting tested? Then you go a little deeper and it looks like he got it from his daddy. Can't imagine they won't be labeled as carriers. Then it's a waterfall of cattle needing tested..... |
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Post by fivestarherefords on Mar 7, 2019 14:05:00 GMT -6
Then you go a little deeper and it looks like he got it from his daddy. Can't imagine they won't be labeled as carriers. Then it's a waterfall of cattle needing tested..... It’s only $18 a piece. The association wins again |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 7, 2019 15:03:20 GMT -6
I know. That was the sick feeling I got in reading that letter. Almost seemed like a ‘marketing’ letter and it turned my stomach.
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 7, 2019 15:33:56 GMT -6
I just looked at mine on herfnet, in what I assume was early random selection by the AHA to test for MSUD, I have had my herd sire and one cow tested both MSUDF  |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 7, 2019 21:47:19 GMT -6
is it just my imagination that a good percent of the 276 listed carriers are sons/daughters of a particular bull that is not listed as a carrier? I assume his sample is at the lab now getting tested? Then you go a little deeper and it looks like he got it from his daddy. Can't imagine they won't be labeled as carriers. I had not researched this at all so didn't have a clue this afternoon, but Schu-Lar On Target 22S has 54 progeny tested for MSUD with 1 confirmed carrier. If he were a carrier this percentage would have to be MUCH closer to 50/50 or 27 positives. It would CERTAINLY APPEAR at this time that 22S would NOT be a carrier. Hyalite On Target 936 is definitely trending to the 50/50 line with 288 tested and 142 positives. |
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1780
Fresh Calf
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Post by 1780 on Mar 8, 2019 7:32:46 GMT -6
Apologies for the length of this post however by the comments thus far I think you will find it interesting.
I have found the current discussion about Maple Syrup Urine disease very interesting and particularly that Mr Ward is the new messiah, letting us know about a disease that has been known about for 40 + years, as if it is a new discovery. However in so doing, Mr Ward has not used the long established method of referencing the scientific evidence to support his claim. Furthermore, his recital has been carefully crafted to avoid explaining one important issue that is pertinent to understanding the disease. One can only assume therefore that this has been done to avoid any discussion about breed integrity.
It was Herefords Australia that fueled my interest about this disease. Accordingly I researched widely and we have been in touch with both Neogen in the US and Weatherbys in Ireland. About a year ago, testing for the disease was quietly introduced in Australia without any announcement. The average breeder didn’t even know it was happening so I became inquisitive. So, I emailed the CEO of Herefords Australia asking for information and didn’t get the courtesy of reply. I followed up and still got nothing. Also, my understanding is that others were treated the same way. Then and to the best of my knowledge, Herefords Australia quietly slipped an explanation onto their web site without any overt explanation of the disease to assist Members manage their herds. All this begged the question for me as to why everything was being done so surreptitiously – what weren’t we supposed to know?
The research suggests the disease was first identified in Australian polled Herefords and peer reviewed academic paper appeared from the late 1960’s onwards. Mr Wards claim that it has only recently reappeared is nonsense and a simple Google search of “Maple Syrup Urine Disease in cattle” will show there has been a steady stream of scientific research into the disease for the last 40 years. Just look at the dates of the publications. A review of these papers will also show that Poll Shorthorns, Poll Herefords and to a lesser extent horned Herefords are the common denominator apart from humans who also experience the disease.
What was particularly revealing is our discussions with Neogen and Weatherbys. As recently as about December 2018, Neogen advised us they did not have a bovine test for the disease and it is particularly relevant that Mr Ward does not cite any peer reviewed scientific papers to support his claim there is now a scientifically proven test. Instead, and like most of what comes from the AHA, when it comes to the dissemination of scientific research to empower Members with the understanding necessary to thoroughly manage their herds, there is none . Instead Mr Ward continues to ask us to “just believe him” that an accurate test has been developed in conjunction with Neogen – seemingly in a couple of months.
However our discussion with Weatherbys unsurprisingly contradicts Mr Wards announcement and expanded significantly on the scientific papers. Their web site shows Maple Syrup Urine Disease as being a disease in both Shorthorn and Hereford which there is no doubt it is. And while I understand we are asking you to believe what we were told by Weatherbys scientists, we were left in no doubt that in their view the origin of the disease in Herefords is the Shorthorn. This is supported anecdotally in the UK (where both breeds originate) where storied abound that similar symptoms existed in the Shorthorn for generations. Furthermore, no such anecdotal evidence exists to suggest that the original Hereford has ever experienced a case of Maple Syrup Urine disease.
That Neogen has developed a test, even though it appears to have happened in only a couple of months may well be true but when on the one hand it has NOT been scientifically referenced or seemingly open to scientific peer review and on the other you have been presented with peer reviewed scientific evidence by a world leading animal genetic scientists that shows the American Hereford is only a distant relative of the original Hereford, that you ignore, what weight can you put on the veracity of the announcement to Members by Mr Ward.
In this light we would be very happy for the Weatherbys advice to be tested which can be done. Scientists are able to “age” genes in an animal and we therefore challenge Mr Ward to release the “age” of the Maple Syrup Urine disease in Herefords. Our investigation suggests it will be about 40 + years.
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1780
Fresh Calf
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Post by 1780 on Mar 8, 2019 8:01:31 GMT -6
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Post by nicky on Mar 8, 2019 8:14:05 GMT -6
Did everyone read the official notice on MSUD from the AHA? Where do I find it? and I can't get the carrier list to come up. |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 8, 2019 8:48:04 GMT -6
Did everyone read the official notice on MSUD from the AHA? Where do I find it? and I can't get the carrier list to come up. Dear American Hereford Association Member: A genetic abnormality, known historically to be found in the Hereford breed – Maple Syrup Urine Disease (MSUD) has recently been discovered to still have alleles present in the modern Hereford population. Furthermore, it has been brought to the attention of the American Hereford Association (AHA) that a genetic marker test exists for MSUD. Working with AHA’s designated lab (Neogen/GeneSeek), we have determined that the MSUD marker existed on some previously utilized DNA panels. We have used the panels to evaluate the frequency of the MSUD allele in the breed with a very low prevalence. Over 33,000 previously genotyped animals have a marker result for MSUD and less than 1% are carriers of the abnormality. MSUD is listed as a Class 1 lethal abnormality and is a simple autosomal recessive gene. The MSUD gene must be present in both parents and passed on to the progeny in order to produce an affected calf. These calves are typically born without symptoms but by 2-4 days of age become slow, dull and eventually recumbent. The calves will often throw their heads back, lying on their side unable to rise. These calves may have some swelling of the brain at autopsy, but diagnosis requires laboratory investigation. The calves have a defect in an enzyme that breaks down complex amino acids in the diet and the buildup of these in the body creates the urine odor and brain damage. The disease name comes from the smell of urine observed in human babies (not always noted in calves). Unfortunately, not all animals previously genotyped have a marker result for MSUD. Therefore, AHA (via Neogen/GeneSeek) has made available a stand-alone genetic test for MSUD through August 31, 2019 at the cost of $18 provided the animal has an existing DNA sample at the lab. To request the stand alone MSUD test contact the AHA customer service team at 816-842-3757. A starting point to your strategy to identify animals to test would be to run the potential defect carriers report. This report can be generated within Myherd.org or can be requested through the AHA customer service department. Going forward AHA will be implementing a higher density genotype panel (GGP 50K) that will include the marker information for MSUD. Therefore, all future DNA requests will provide MSUD results and be reported just like other currently observed abnormalities. The other advantage of moving to the GGP 50K panel is that the additional marker content will allow for continued advancement of the Hereford breed. Moving forward, the cost of the basic DNA test will be $42 and $58 for the Horn/Poll combo test, respectively. Members who submit DNA samples via Tissue Sample Units will receive a $6 credit from AHA when the sample is successfully processed at the lab. Reports of MSUD to AHA and Dr. Steffen’s lab at the University of Nebraska Lincoln are absent in recent years. With the estimated gene frequency of less than 1%, the current occurrence of calf losses is estimated at less than 20 per one million births and is likely going unrecognized. Even with this low incidence rate, testing of at-risk animals should be completed to ensure this abnormality does not propagate. Regards, Jack Ward Executive Vice President |
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Post by woodford on Mar 8, 2019 11:03:10 GMT -6
George had a link on facebook that I used for the list. However, as of a few minutes ago, neither his link, nor the MSUD section of the AHA website's defect page were working. It is difficult to know why, but the AHA/ABRI database breaks down periodically. Fortunately, I was able to take screen shots of the list before it was lost. Let's see if I can get it onto here, they won't be clickable, but at least you ought to be able to read and use the actual list manually: MSUD CARRIERS AHA 03082019.docx (2.65 MB) Unfortunately, you will have to download the document in order to read the list. Woodford |
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Post by strojanherefords on Mar 8, 2019 11:34:11 GMT -6
Another genetic abnormality, another chance for breeders to be ruined. I have seen it happen with dilutor and IE. Much of the destruction could have been averted had we been made aware of the defect and the most recent common ancestors of the affected animals. Instead the associations waited for a test to be developed and never did identify the common ancestors.
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Post by kph on Mar 8, 2019 13:33:48 GMT -6
You can get the carrier list by using the EPD search form and sorting by "MSUD carriers".
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Post by kclark on Mar 9, 2019 20:47:00 GMT -6
is it just my imagination that a good percent of the 276 listed carriers are sons/daughters of a particular bull that is not listed as a carrier? I assume his sample is at the lab now getting tested? Damn near bought a 3/4 brother to that bull a few years ago. Glad that deal fell through! |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 10, 2019 12:47:37 GMT -6
I have been busy and haven't had a lot of time to look at this, however last night I did do some pedigree spelunking on the 276 listed carriers. I am not encouraging PANIC but I think it sure has been quite on social media and even here. This is DEADLY recessive defect and there is going to be AT LEAST 1 big name carrier and several other carriers that have sired a good amount of calves.
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Post by fivestarherefords on Mar 10, 2019 22:34:15 GMT -6
Then you go a little deeper and it looks like he got it from his daddy. Can't imagine they won't be labeled as carriers. I had not researched this at all so didn't have a clue this afternoon, but Schu-Lar On Target 22S has 54 progeny tested for MSUD with 1 confirmed carrier. If he were a carrier this percentage would have to be MUCH closer to 50/50 or 27 positives. It would CERTAINLY APPEAR at this time that 22S would NOT be a carrier. Hyalite On Target 936 is definitely trending to the 50/50 line with 288 tested and 142 positives. When you look at the third generation on 936’s pedigree 6 of the 8 grandsires and dams trace to Feltons 517. He is also in the pedigree of quite a few other carriers not related to 936. This could get ugly fast. |
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Post by Glenn on Mar 11, 2019 7:40:50 GMT -6
It looks like R Leader will be free. That is really nothing but a stroke of 50/50 luck. That would have been a full on 5 Alarm problem. I still think this is going to get uglier than anyone is acknowledging or letting on at this point.
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Post by woodford on Mar 12, 2019 0:47:40 GMT -6
This was an outbreak that did not involve us directly, and I could not remember the details but I just confirmed yesterday from my cousin an occurrence of MSUD in 1993. This was from a Polled herd that had sold cattle to a relative of my cousin's. The calves were text book, normal for a few hours to a day or two and then they would become incapacitated and die. Samples were sent to the lab at North Dakota State University (NDSU) where they caused quite stir once the problem was diagnosed because of MSUD's rarity.
Because the breeder was elderly, and unable to continue because of his health, he got rid of the rest of his herd. It was unfortunate as he was a good man and a passionate Hereford breeder. Because of this, the cattle were not sent to slaughter, at least a first. My understanding is that they went to a relative of his own. From there the trail grows cold as to what became of the herd.
My information is that is possible that, if unchecked, MSUD could become real problem in the future, and that it has been primarily a Polled Hereford defect. However, since the practice of the used of Polled genetics has become widely excepted within all of the Hereford breed here in North America, at least, it seems inevitable that the defect will have to be tested for on a regular basis. I, for one, am glad that the AHA has decided to implement their testing regimen.
It is interesting how quickly the test has become available through the AHA and Genseek. I actually enquired no more than 1 and 1/2 to 2 months ago at Geneseek directly if they had a test for MSUD and the person that I spoke with had never heard of MSUD nor did Genseek have a test for MSUD at that time. It usually takes a month for an SNP to be processed from genetic material (blood, hair, etc.), so both the lab and the AHA have to be commended for their speed in setting up the test and actually identifying nearly 300 carriers in such a short period of time with less than 1% of cattle affected.
Woodford
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Post by kph on Mar 12, 2019 20:20:14 GMT -6
I called down to the office today, ( you know, our office) and talked to Shane to try and get around some of the rumor and speculation. He told me that Geenseek actually had a marker test for awhile, from problems in Australia, but that they were unaware of it. They only recently became aware of the test due to a black Hereford breeder that was having an issue. Then they ran the test on all samples that worked for it and that's where the list came from.
He said a lot of these bulls (936 included) are in the process of being tested. He said all the bull studs are running their Hereford bulls. So the picture should become a lot clearer in a couple weeks or so I hope.
I have no idea why Geenseek would have seemingly hidden having the test, its on the available test list on their website, although I don't know how long its been there. You would think they would have been pushing the test to affected breed associations ( Hereford and Shorthorn). Seems like AHA also should have been aggressively pushing them for a test since it is historically a Hereford defect.
Woodford, the case you reference is interesting since there is a scientific paper out dated 2015 that Jon Beever worked on that claims the first confirmed case in US. Shane said in that case no positive pedigree trail could be confirmed.
Its wrong to label this a "Polled" problem, though. There are lots of horned cattle on that list. Granted, some of them are more of Shaw's "horned" cattle out of homo polled bulls ( a battle for another day), but the LS Mountain breeding is definitely a problem, Navarro needs to be tested and there's a few mostly Line 1 pedigrees that don't seem to connect to anything suspect.
Any DNA tests from this point will include syrup testing and hopefully anyone with possible carriers or selling semen will get the tests done. He did say that anyone using a bull or interested in a bull, if the owner doesn't have him tested, can request a test. ( for 18.00)
They call less than 1% low incidence but to me 1 out of a hundred calves carrying a lethal defect needs to be cleaned up! (I'm sure glad I finally decided to jump on the 936 bandwagon last year, sheesh!)
Anyone with questions I would encourage to call AHA, Shane was more than willing to discuss it.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 12, 2019 20:41:34 GMT -6
It's not gonna stay at 1% for long if they don't get more sires tested and SOON. I bet Shaw's and Topp's ain't at 1%. You tie in and use a carrier and odds say your gonna have 50% carriers by that sire's entire crop. On Target certainly seems like a carrier. As of today he has 1450 registered progeny and how may coming this spring? The breed was DAMN LUCKY that his son R Leader 6964 appears to be free. That was a coin flip deal and the breed got lucky.
AXA Golden-Oak Xceed ET 704 X seems to be another LIKELY carrier. This bull has 120 progeny but was used in some "MAJOR" herds. His maternal sibling golden-Oak Fusion 3S also seems pretty suspect.
As a disclaimer, I am not SAYING with CERTAINTY that those 3 bulls are carriers but based on my knowledge of heredity and the animals listed as carriers (276) to date, that is my OPINION.
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Post by mrvictordomino on Mar 12, 2019 21:10:05 GMT -6
Noticed that several of my herd sires now have the MSUDF showing after their name... Guess they are testing the samples submitted earlier?
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Post by larso on Mar 12, 2019 21:19:11 GMT -6
Whose telling porkys ?? For Genseek to say only 2mths ago they didn’t have a test or had never heard of MSUD is a load of crap ( excuse my English) 12 mths ago every bull going to our national show and sale had to be tested for MSUD ,who by Genseek !!! If the so called boys running the show think they can treat the rank and file like mushrooms ( kept in the dark and fed bullshit ) they had better think again.
We are experiencing the worst drought on record in eastern Australia it is extremely hard to keep going and motivated the very least we should expect from our associations is honesty, if Jack Ward is going to come out here and pedal his BS he can and will get a hostile audience.
I make no apologies for this post , if it gets deleted I don’t care I’ve had enough !
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Post by larso on Mar 12, 2019 21:19:22 GMT -6
Whose telling porkys ?? For Genseek to say only 2mths ago they didn’t have a test or had never heard of MSUD is a load of crap ( excuse my English) 12 mths ago every bull going to our national show and sale had to be tested for MSUD ,who by Genseek !!! If the so called boys running the show think they can treat the rank and file like mushrooms ( kept in the dark and fed bullshit ) they had better think again.
We are experiencing the worst drought on record in eastern Australia it is extremely hard to keep going and motivated the very least we should expect from our associations is honesty, if Jack Ward is going to come out here and pedal his BS he can and will get a hostile audience.
I make no apologies for this post , if it gets deleted I don’t care I’ve had enough !
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Mar 14, 2019 10:53:43 GMT -6
Then it's a waterfall of cattle needing tested..... It’s only $18 a piece. The association wins again I've just been informed that if the old DNA sample was run by the old lab (Maxxam) like all my older cows, they will need to run the complete test again not just for the MSUD at full cost $42.00 and would be better off running new samples (starting over) to be sure the they have the correct sample. |
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