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Post by okherefords on Apr 17, 2015 15:02:13 GMT -6
Would like some input or thought from others and the next AHA Executive VP. My biggest concern about the person currently filling the position and others they may consider is that that if individual is operating a personal operation with another breeds cattle, and him and/or his family are involved in that breeds activities. If you are going to be the face of the Hereford breed, you cannot have an be involved in producing, showing, selling and even judging that breeds cattle shows. It does not send a message of someone who is truely committed to the Hereford breed.
I dont think any of us would have an issue if the individual ran a commercial operation with different breeds while using some Hereford bulls in that operation.
I asked Craig several years ago why he did not have his family show Herefords. He stated he felt it would show favoritism, which it might. However if it was handled correctly I dont see that as being near the issue as our head man owning and promoting Angus or any other breed. How do others feel on this issue?
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Post by Glenn on Apr 17, 2015 15:18:51 GMT -6
Everything seems awful quite for some reason.....strange
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Post by randy on Apr 17, 2015 22:26:05 GMT -6
Everything seems awful quite for some reason.....strange Everyone is up to their butt in alligators this time of year.... second flush and branding in this country...everyone is chasing grass... Heck it could even be that everyone is depressed from eating ham and turkey sandwiches...rofl...
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Post by mehf on Apr 18, 2015 4:49:42 GMT -6
Right on, OKHerefords !!! If "Jack" is selected, and I certainly hope not, it will be an absolute disaster for the Hereford Breed and the Hereford industry.
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Post by timbernt on Apr 18, 2015 11:47:44 GMT -6
I don't believe there is a future for the Hereford breed and if Ward is selected that will be the final nail in the coffin.
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Post by Glenn on Apr 18, 2015 11:53:27 GMT -6
So it doesn't matter who is chosen, Tim? We are doomed either way? Just a matter of sooner or later?
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Post by timbernt on Apr 18, 2015 12:05:21 GMT -6
I am afraid we are the end of the line. A breed cannot ignore the industry it serves and be of continued value to that industry. The real world moves too fast for us to waste the years we have chasing the hobby people and meaningless fads. I am watching other breeds become more useful every year by paying attention to industry and in the Hereford breed the only connection the advertisers in the Hereford World have to production agriculture is an occasional happy face article by Ward.
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Post by bookcliff on Apr 18, 2015 13:26:36 GMT -6
I am afraid we are the end of the line. A breed cannot ignore the industry it serves and be of continued value to that industry. The real world moves too fast for us to waste the years we have chasing the hobby people and meaningless fads. I am watching other breeds become more useful every year by paying attention to industry and in the Hereford breed the only connection the advertisers in the Hereford World have to production agriculture is an occasional happy face article by Ward. totally agree, the world outside of this so-called "hereford business" revolves around pretty much around things that do not matter to most within it and at an ever rapidly increasing pace that is way beyond who won the last show or what the current fad is. folks, anyone who isn't already geared to meet the needs of this world, well all I can say is I don't feel sorry for you when you can't move your bulls if you can't grasp what is happening outside of the "hereford". it's nobody's fault but your own. it's not Jacks, nor the field reps, nor the Assn's. at the end of the day it doesn't matter one damn bit who gets the job, it only matters what your diong at home and if that and the resulting cattle you have for sale has real acceptance within the commerial industry. their job is nothing more than to provide you some of the neccessary frame work, it's still your job to build the house. at the end of the day if Jack gets the position he does bring some strong points to the table. if one of the others I have heard about gets it he does as well. the third person , well you all know my opionion about him and his former operation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 15:11:32 GMT -6
I am afraid we are the end of the line. A breed cannot ignore the industry it serves and be of continued value to that industry. The real world moves too fast for us to waste the years we have chasing the hobby people and meaningless fads. I am watching other breeds become more useful every year by paying attention to industry and in the Hereford breed the only connection the advertisers in the Hereford World have to production agriculture is an occasional happy face article by Ward. totally agree, the world outside of this so-called "hereford business" revolves around pretty much around things that do not matter to most within it and at an ever rapidly increasing pace that is way beyond who won the last show or what the current fad is. folks, anyone who isn't already geared to meet the needs of this world, well all I can say is I don't feel sorry for you when you can't move your bulls if you can't grasp what is happening outside of the "hereford". it's nobody's fault but your own. it's not Jacks, nor the field reps, nor the Assn's. at the end of the day it doesn't matter one damn bit who gets the job, it only matters what your diong at home and if that and the resulting cattle you have for sale has real acceptance within the commerial industry. their job is nothing more than to provide you some of the neccessary frame work, it's still your job to build the house. at the end of the day if Jack gets the position he does bring some strong points to the table. if one of the others I have heard about gets it he does as well. the third person , well you all know my opionion about him and his former operation.
This is not seriously being considered???
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Post by George on Apr 18, 2015 15:38:45 GMT -6
totally agree, the world outside of this so-called "hereford business" revolves around pretty much around things that do not matter to most within it and at an ever rapidly increasing pace that is way beyond who won the last show or what the current fad is. folks, anyone who isn't already geared to meet the needs of this world, well all I can say is I don't feel sorry for you when you can't move your bulls if you can't grasp what is happening outside of the "hereford". it's nobody's fault but your own. it's not Jacks, nor the field reps, nor the Assn's. at the end of the day it doesn't matter one damn bit who gets the job, it only matters what your diong at home and if that and the resulting cattle you have for sale has real acceptance within the commerial industry. their job is nothing more than to provide you some of the neccessary frame work, it's still your job to build the house. at the end of the day if Jack gets the position he does bring some strong points to the table. if one of the others I have heard about gets it he does as well. the third person , well you all know my opionion about him and his former operation.
This is not seriously being considered??? If you are referring to Montie Soules, I HOPE NOT! If he is chosen, I will become a Black Hereford breeder or disperse entirely. There is no way that I can be a part of an organization headed up by a lying crook.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 18:44:45 GMT -6
I am afraid we are the end of the line. A breed cannot ignore the industry it serves and be of continued value to that industry. The real world moves too fast for us to waste the years we have chasing the hobby people and meaningless fads. I am watching other breeds become more useful every year by paying attention to industry and in the Hereford breed the only connection the advertisers in the Hereford World have to production agriculture is an occasional happy face article by Ward. totally agree, the world outside of this so-called "hereford business" revolves around pretty much around things that do not matter to most within it and at an ever rapidly increasing pace that is way beyond who won the last show or what the current fad is. folks, anyone who isn't already geared to meet the needs of this world, well all I can say is I don't feel sorry for you when you can't move your bulls if you can't grasp what is happening outside of the "hereford". it's nobody's fault but your own. it's not Jacks, nor the field reps, nor the Assn's. at the end of the day it doesn't matter one damn bit who gets the job, it only matters what your diong at home and if that and the resulting cattle you have for sale has real acceptance within the commerial industry. their job is nothing more than to provide you some of the neccessary frame work, it's still your job to build the house. at the end of the day if Jack gets the position he does bring some strong points to the table. if one of the others I have heard about gets it he does as well. the third person , well you all know my opionion about him and his former operation. Bingo! Doesn't matter who the new EVP is, he's not the one making the decision on how you make your breeding choices and run your operation. If you aren't breeding cattle that is desirable to your customer base that is on you not the EVP. Lot and ranting and raving goes on here about how cattle should look but not a lot of logical reasoning of how the people at AHA are directly to blame for that. How many of you are calling the office at KC asking who you should breed what cow to what bull or how you should manage your herd or which bulls and heifers you should be keeping? They aren't making those decisions for you. I could go on more about this but I'll save it for later...
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Post by George on Apr 18, 2015 18:58:45 GMT -6
totally agree, the world outside of this so-called "hereford business" revolves around pretty much around things that do not matter to most within it and at an ever rapidly increasing pace that is way beyond who won the last show or what the current fad is. folks, anyone who isn't already geared to meet the needs of this world, well all I can say is I don't feel sorry for you when you can't move your bulls if you can't grasp what is happening outside of the "hereford". it's nobody's fault but your own. it's not Jacks, nor the field reps, nor the Assn's. at the end of the day it doesn't matter one damn bit who gets the job, it only matters what your diong at home and if that and the resulting cattle you have for sale has real acceptance within the commerial industry. their job is nothing more than to provide you some of the neccessary frame work, it's still your job to build the house. at the end of the day if Jack gets the position he does bring some strong points to the table. if one of the others I have heard about gets it he does as well. the third person , well you all know my opionion about him and his former operation. Bingo! Doesn't matter who the new EVP is, he's not the one making the decision on how you make your breeding choices and run your operation. If you aren't breeding cattle that is desirable to your customer base that is on you not the EVP. Lot and ranting and raving goes on here about how cattle should look but not a lot of logical reasoning of how the people at AHA are directly to blame for that. How many of you are calling the office at KC asking who you should breed what cow to what bull or how you should manage your herd or which bulls and heifers you should be keeping? They aren't making those decisions for you. I could go on more about this but I'll save it for later... I think the criticism focused toward the AHA is mostly in their overzealous promotion of two entities. The first is a showring industry that is coming very close to producing a consistent product that is unfit for anything but the showring. The second is the continual touting of low accuracy EPDs as the "best judge" of an animal's productive worth - to the point where some breeders are starting to ignor basic structure and type flaws in the almighty pursuit of the most EXTREME EPD wonder! Neither one will serve the breed very well in the long run.
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Post by elkwc on Apr 19, 2015 10:21:41 GMT -6
George you are spot on. A commercia.breeders main concern is finding a dependable source for a quaility animal that will produce calves that will perform well whether it be in the cowherd, feedlot or on the rail. Performance is more important to many than color/breed. It seems both the AHA and the Angus association are more concerned in pushing EPD's and the show world than what the industry demands. One item I will add is many think the AI bull studs are being promoted and given a higher platform to the point it is detrimental. Some feel that many of the bulls that are top AI sires would never make it in the real world and their calves don't either. Some feel the Red Angus association is taking a more beneficial road when it comes to the commercial breeder. From an outsider looking in and what I've read I don't see Jack leading the AHA where they need to go. At least Monte has been involved in the Hereford business and not the Angus. I have read why many didn't like Monte but it seems Jack would be just another good ole boy that would appease those in the show world and on the board. As a commercial breeder not what I want to see.
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Post by George on Apr 19, 2015 12:18:02 GMT -6
George you are spot on. A commercia.breeders main concern is finding a dependable source for a quaility animal that will produce calves that will perform well whether it be in the cowherd, feedlot or on the rail. Performance is more important to many than color/breed. It seems both the AHA and the Angus association are more concerned in pushing EPD's and the show world than what the industry demands. One item I will add is many think the AI bull studs are being promoted and given a higher platform to the point it is detrimental. Some feel that many of the bulls that are top AI sires would never make it in the real world and their calves don't either. Some feel the Red Angus association is taking a more beneficial road when it comes to the commercial breeder. From an outsider looking in and what I've read I don't see Jack leading the AHA where they need to go. At least Monte has been involved in the Hereford business and not the Angus. I have read why many didn't like Monte but it seems Jack would be just another good ole boy that would appease those in the show world and on the board. As a commercial breeder not what I want to see. I am sure that Montie Soules isn't the lone snake in the den. But he's the only one that has bitten me! Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, shame on me! As far as the semen companies, when I returned to the Hereford business there was almost no involvement by them in Herefords. What we had was a tier of elitist breeders who were overcharging for both semen and certificates. Since the semen companies have gotten involved, we have seen a reduction in the prices - and there are some good bulls at reasonable prices out there. It didn't completely break up the clique of greedy bastards, but it did put a good sized dent in their stranglehold on that business.
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Post by elkwc on Apr 19, 2015 12:44:15 GMT -6
George what I've heard and seen with the AI bulls from the big studs is they are bought as yearlings, never proven, structural issues ignored and advertised heavily in order to regain the big money they pay. There are some nice bulls in the studs. Harland is one that most say is good and I like the progeny I've seen. And I've heard of and saw progeny of a few others. Then I've seen progeny of several that have severe issues but are still pushed and their progeny take the herds they are used in back 2 steps. I've drove many miles to look at the progeny of a few "top AI" bulls only to find their progeny wouldn't make good steers. Then I see them on the FB for sale sites. Again I know there are some good bulls in the studs but many from some of the current hot breeders aren't benefitting the breeds they represent well in my opinion.
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Post by George on Apr 19, 2015 12:51:50 GMT -6
And, as far as Jack Ward goes, the bulk of criticism that I've heard regarding his fitness for the job revolves around his involvement with the Angus breed.
My thinking is that a lot of that angst is more jealousy toward the Angus breed and their leading position In the beef Industry than a true disqualification for the position. I wonder if all the haters would be as adament if Jack and his family were involved with Texas Longhorns?
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Post by timbernt on Apr 19, 2015 13:54:12 GMT -6
George, this is one time you need to be take to the woodshed. I have no hatred for Ward. What I have is total disgust that our director of breed improvement has a background in academia and the showring and managing purebred operations. We are in a rapidly evolving industry and our association is being led by purebred breeders and academics using fictional EPD's to distort the fact that the Herefords that need to be propagated are the ones the commercial man wants. 5 days ago I had a call from a breeder asking about an AI bull I am using. I told him I am concerned there won't be enough performance (mass or growth). His reply that since the bull has a 120 yearling EPD he had plenty of both. Yesterday there was a livestock market owner here from Arkansas. He saw the same thing I did. Why aren't we listening to those guys instead of academics? I am beginning to think any purebred breeder that doesn't have a commercial base is likely to be pretty off track.
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Post by George on Apr 19, 2015 14:22:50 GMT -6
George, this is one time you need to be take to the woodshed. I have no hatred for Ward. What I have is total disgust that our director of breed improvement has a background in academia and the showring and managing purebred operations. We are in a rapidly evolving industry and our association is being led by purebred breeders and academics using fictional EPD's to distort the fact that the Herefords that need to be propagated are the ones the commercial man wants. 5 days ago I had a call from a breeder asking about an AI bull I am using. I told him I am concerned there won't be enough performance (mass or growth). His reply that since the bull has a 120 yearling EPD he had plenty of both. Yesterday there was a livestock market owner here from Arkansas. He saw the same thing I did. Why aren't we listening to those guys instead of academics? I am beginning to think any purebred breeder that doesn't have a commercial base is likely to be pretty off track. Tim, I'm not sure I need the "woodshed". You gave good reasons for your belief. But all that I've hearing from most of the others is about Jack Ward's involvement with Angus. Those remarks are meant to evoke an emotional response, rather than sound reasoning. It is an analogy that's a little dated, but it is like the University of Texas football supporter questioning whether Darrell Royal would be a good choice for the head football coach because he played his collegiate football at the University of Oklahoma. My point is - IF the only reason you can come up with that Jack Ward is not the best candidate for the position is because of his involvement with the Angus breed, then he probably truly is the best candidate for the job. There has to be more reasons than that. And you pointed out some.
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Post by elkwc on Apr 19, 2015 15:36:05 GMT -6
George when I did a search on Jack Ward I found several articles linking him to the show world and even one where he was admitted to a show Hall of Fame. I would be more impressed if he had a resume that included managing a 60,000 hd feedlot, a large cow/calf operation, at least time in the real world. You could tell by the speakers at the big event last fall in MO that the AHA decision makers could care less about the commercial man. When Huffines made his remark about how a commercial man isn't concerned with structural soundness it proved he had no idea what it is like in the typical cow/calp operation. As an Angus breeder said. He would like to see the Angus and Hereford breeds stay among the front runners but unless some changes were made they both were going to be passed by the RA and a few exotic breeds. And i feel that the hiring of Ward wouldn't change anything.
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Post by mehf on Apr 19, 2015 16:08:35 GMT -6
George, You surface some points to consider and when they are, and in my opinion, they don't hold much water. You know having Ward on board the AHA senior management team for all these past years and the frightening thought of having him on as the next EVP, brings up a parallel thought. Many years ago (1944 to be exact ...) when General Eisenhower was planning the invasion of Normandy he had, on the surface that is, a very "able" Chief Of Staff. Unknown to General Eisenhower and those close to him at that time the Chief Of Staff was a dedicated spy for the Nazi war machine. Who knows what damage Ward, with his angus allegiance, has done to the Hereford Breed and the Hereford industry by direct and indirect actions and intents! Although not a top choice for me, Montie Soules would be a better choice if only for the fact that he has a Hereford heritage and, as a dedicated Hereford person, I am confident that he can be properly influenced as to the needs and priorities of those who are dedicated to the commercial element of the Hereford industry.
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Post by mehf on Apr 19, 2015 16:15:04 GMT -6
Well Glenn, I guess it is not so quite at this point in time.
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Post by George on Apr 19, 2015 16:16:22 GMT -6
Regarding Montie Soules, I have been told that he didn't apply for the job.
Knowing that comes as a huge relief to me.
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Post by mehf on Apr 19, 2015 16:18:42 GMT -6
George, Any idea as to who did apply?
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Post by George on Apr 19, 2015 16:22:47 GMT -6
No idea. I don't even know that Jack Ward applied.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 19:31:08 GMT -6
While I agree with most of you that I would like to see someone with a commercial cattleman mentality get the job, we all know the likelihood of that happening is small. And looking at the big picture, I don't see how it is going to have a huge impact on the beef industry either way.
Now, while I would like to see the AHA spend more of its time and resources (some of our money) on things other than the puff and fluff, as I have said before, I am not going to use too much time and energy fighting that fight anymore. And if you have been in this thing very long or done your homework, this mentality with the national organizations has been going on for decades. Look thru herd bull issues and compare pictures of the highly promoted bulls from the 40's thru the 90's if you don't believe me.
And in spite of all that crap, the BREED has survived. There have been, currently are, and will continue to be good Hereford breeders and cattle out there. Cattle that folks in KC or those who only select their genetics from the AI catalog or herd bull issue don't know about. And those breeders have been doing it without any or very little help from the AHA. And have been pretty successful over the years to boot, selling good seedstock into commercial herds in all regions of the US. Some of those folks are on this very forum, and they are just a few of the ones spread across this country.
I am not going to pout, cry, or sell out because of something that happens in KC(well I may get ticked off for a while, but I am getting better about that). Looking back over the past 10 years of customers, I can only think of one that made any mention of the AHA or getting info from KC. For us right now, the AHA just isn't that relevant to our program and the commercial cattle people we sell to. Tom K is right, if you are needing to rely on the AHA or your state organizations to get you cattle sold, you are doing something wrong. And if you are relying on the AHA or your state associations to help you pick your genetics, well good luck with that outcome too. As a wise old, very successful breeder once said, "Give me my registration papers and stay the hell out of my way". In spite of the efforts of some, the Hereford BREED will survive because of its survival and performance traits in many different environments.
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