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Post by Trailmaster on Sept 18, 2014 14:54:49 GMT -6
I've had time to watch a few of the videos here and there. My favorite speaker would have to be Don Schiefelbein. He came back on some of the things Fink said that I disagreed with. But I really liked it when Fink said how every breed keeps trying to be more like Angus and we should breed to our own strengths and quit worrying about them.
Some of the lines I like were: "Make every mating count". This is something that is hard to do if you're only getting 50-60% bred AI and the rest are getting bred to a clean up bull that is "just a clean up bull". I prefer having a bull good enough he is the bull I'm AIing the cows to and he's doing his own clean up. I was amassed how much more progress I started making when I started trying to make every mating count and if a cow had every opportunity to make a good calf and it still didn't measure up she's gone.
Another line: "You have to spend money to make money". It's hard to spark much interest in commercial producers if they know they're spending as much or more on bulls than you are.
Another: "Ignorant purchase on price. Knowledge purchase on value".
I just feel us Hereford breeders need to do the best we possibly can. The breed has made a lot of progress the last 20 years! Let's keep it going! When I got into registered Herefords I really caught hell. The breed had such a bad reputation and there were still so many sorry ones around. Even though I only played a small part I'm proud of the progress the breed has made.
The summit seemed to have a lot of the common catchphrases they always do: "Think outside the box". Also seemed to contradict themselves fairly often. All and all the speakers seemed good and I would have enjoyed going if I could have but haying had to come first.
I found it interesting none of the speakers seemed to think much of our new "profit value EPD's" Don Schiefelbein said something like breeders need to be a little more complex. I never even look at them. It's not a one size fits all world.
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Post by Trailmaster on Sept 18, 2014 15:37:29 GMT -6
Angus definitely have their problems. I have a yearling heifer out of Hoover Dam that has poor structure and is the worst footed yearling heifer I've ever had. I seen her in heat late so we'll see if she even bred. She came to mind when the panel was asking what percentage of input EPD's have in their selection. EPD's will never have more emphasis than soundness and structure in my herd.
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Post by elkwc on Sept 20, 2014 7:52:52 GMT -6
I have read some of the previous posts and waited to weigh in and give my views and opinions. Yesterday I attended a large weekly cattle sale in NW OK and then last night had a good visit with my BIL not only about prices but about the types of cattle I saw the feeders giving more for and those being docked. He agreed pretty much with what I have observed over the last month attending sales where some of the cattle I've been helping with sold. Instead of several posts on different threads I'm going to try to make it one so this may get a little long. First I want to say my view from my experience with my job that pays my bills a round table discussion with the feeder buyers and packers would be way more beneficial than a group of speakers with no skin in the game. When I started my job 40 years ago the seminars I attended would feature engineers and academia telling us how to operate our equipment. None of them had ever been out at 2 am when it was zero trying to start one of these units. They knew how they operated in a nice clean, dust free, temp controlled lab but no experience in the real world. After several years of many telling them the seminars were of limited benefit and then not attending they got the message. Now they have round tables with those actually in the field doing the work and attendance is at an all time high and everyone feels the seminars are very beneficial. Until you see something similar in the livestock industry you are going to see limited results from the seminars and summits. After reading the comments here by the speakers and seeing what the feeder buyers are buying I see some differences. If the conferences consisted of buyers, packers and even sale barn operators then the breeders would know what is desired and be able to provide a better product. Currently the commercial breeder has to try to scour the purebred herds to find what will produce a product that will top the market and perform in the lot and on the rail. He has to attend the sales and see what the feeder buyer wants because what many of these speakers are stating isn't what you find when you sale your product.
I haven't seen as much dockage for color as many on this forum and elsewhere have stated. I've seen straight Herefords of the right kind sell with the straight blacks. Saw some Chars yesterday sell near the top. What I have seen is the shorter coupled cattle and shorter in height under frame 5 being docked regardless of color. The straight blacks we took topped the market in their weight class while we were there. The same feeder buyer that has purchased several previous lots over the last several years purchased all of them. They are mostly frame 5, stretchy, well muscled but not heavy. They were late Jan - Feb calves, 2 weeks weaned and the top end weighed 768. They have frame and some capacity to them. Good bone and legs and good disposition. I saw several lots of shorter height and shorter coupled cattle being docked 20-25 dollars a hundred regardless of color. The type of cattle many of the polled breeders are raising will be docked. Not because of color but because of their phenotype. I saw a group of black baldies with about 1/3 straight Herefords similar in phenotype to the cattle we sold and they sold very near the top. THe heifer mates topped the sale and I'm sure went for replacements. I talked to my BIL last night who has fed cattle for 35 years and discussed what I saw and he said that the stretchier cattle with good muscling and some frame are more feed efficient and grade better. He said he doesn't care about hide color when buying a pen. He looks for the type that will perform. In closing I will say. I think many of the commercial breeders know what they need to raise. Finding the bulls to produce that product is somewhat challenging at least from my experience looking for polled Hereford bulls. We currently have a set of Angus bulls that are doing a good job but most of them are getting older. The jury is still out on the new bull purchased in Feb. She had another man when we stopped to eat dinner yesterday ask to buy her heifers if she sells any. This makes the second person in two days. To me this proves a breeder can produce cattle that will perform in the lot and also make great cows. I've seen several breeders on this forum who are raising the right kind. I've also seen some who are raising the current popular kind in the Polled breed and you couldn't pay me to use one of those bulls. When the calves are docked they will blame color rather than admit they aren't the desired phenotype. These are just my opinions formed from my recent bull search and also attending a few sales recently. In fact attending the sales and visiting with feeders and buyers just reinforced my views. The basic product desired by the feeders hasn't changed much. What changes is the propaganda you hear from the speakers with no skin in the game. The same product that performed well in the late 80's and 90's will still sell and perform well. And the good Herefords can perform with any breed I've seen. The Hereford breed has took a huge step forward in the udder area but many have took a step back in the phenotype area and the soundness area. If they address those issues they will be able to compete with anyone.
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 21, 2014 12:52:01 GMT -6
lots of good points from SW Kansas.
as far as the red hided dock, I totally agree with you. as for us here I guess if contracting our march/april born Hereford steer calves for $2.87 with a 6 cent slide on a pay weight of 585 lbs last week for third week of October delivery straight off the cow is taking a red hided hit....................
don't make a whole lot of sense to retain ownership on em this year for what their bringing and the money that would be put at risk for another $100 or so per head when you can't hedge em worth the money.
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 21, 2014 13:18:34 GMT -6
Very true statements. The one thing that keeps the Hereford popularity in many regions is the cows ability to make it on marginal inputs. As the saying goes ; Herefords starve the best; One thing we never want to have happen is to let the packers design our cattle. They would love to I,m sure , but a rancher could never live with the results. I think that model is out there to see in some other breeds. We can tweak our weaknesses but we never want to compromise our strengths.to me this is going to be the most interesting thing to see over the next however many years. imo ranchers are living with those results and multiple other deals. i think it was the same in the past when x breeding with angus just became the easy choice and solution to what the ranchers of the past lived with or let happen and it was like dominos. when i think about the reasons folks went away from running straight herefords in our area and compare that to what i experience here with straight angus... using a hereford bull on them is a no brainer. it will be real interesting to me to watch several areas of mt to see if they just keep doing what they are doing or if that same domino effect will happen only the other way but probably never to the extent that the states herd changed color. what i have to live with in regards to staight hereford cows vs straight angus imo pales in comparison. i wonder if the difference today is in power. i think angus is just so built into the machine. does 0.37 that bll showed an example of really cover the difference? i think if everyone put a pencil to it it would be different. what boggles me is that those same calves run out til yrlng there is no disparity. i have little experience feeding slaughter cattle or owning slaughter cattle but assume there is a disparity there too mostly off more marketing avenues for black hided cattle. regardless i think herefords main place is in the cow factory. to be honest... if i could buy a black bull that was as good at his job as a horned hereford bull of certain lineage ( )i wouldn't have any complaints. think im done wasting grass on black cows. my expereince when Andrea and I were still running stockers 10 years ago (they were always straigth herefords that we put together outa salebarns in NE kansas) was that by the time those calves came off of grass weighing 800+ as yearlings the disparity was all but gone, phenotype and fleshyness were the drivers, never did seen em get hammered (we always sent the lighter ones to the feedyard (either Koch early on or Madder's later) and sold the heavier ones thru the salebarn at either St Mary's or Manhattan in late Sept) realative to any other color or breed in the ten years we ran stockers on the Horizon Ranch we used to rent. Furthermore.over the last past 20 years or so I have never seen a group of straight herefords that we personally have fed out (either Cedar Creek's, our own calves, our bull customers or our stocker cattle) get discounted as fats relative to any other color or breed as well. Once you get past calves you get past color and with yearlings or fats it's all about type and how green/fleshy they are.
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Post by elkwc on Sept 21, 2014 13:38:30 GMT -6
TK I agree with what you said. One reason we weaned deep and sold all of the bigger steers. There is plenty of pasture now till frost. Some are banking on wheat pasture and planning on keeping their calves. But many in that area have weaned and starting to sell at least the big end. First there is no guarantee of wheat pasture yet. It is up but will need a few drinks over the next 6-8 weeks. And what do you gain if you lose one? She didn't sell any of the heifers although we came close to loading the heavier ones. The plan is to keep 5-6 of the best and sell the rest and she has had two men ask to buy them before she takes them to the sale. One said to at least let him know and he will follow them to the sale.
TK the results of the show and carcass data you posted recently prove again that the right kind of Hereford can compete. I recently saw the close out on some black baldie heifers who graded all choice and was the top profit making pen for the week they sold in from that lot. I'm still puzzled why the AHA brought in speakers who raise other breeds and not those who feed them and those who slaughter them. The chain of order was simplified in the one statement in my opinion. The commercial breeder writes the check to the purebred breeder, the feeder (or packer if ownership is retained through the feedlot) write the check to the commercial breeder and the packer writes the check in the end. The problem I've seen is some purebred breeders aren't paying attention to the commercial breeder and his needs. They are paying attention to either the show ring or speakers like some at this summit. They need to remember who is writing their check. And the AHA needs to also. The commercial breeder many times seems to be an afterthought. They come to mind only when bulls are needing to be moved. I've viewed a few herds and the breeder was trying to tell me what I need to buy and the type I need to raise. They seem to forget who is writing the check. I'm still good friends with some feedlot managers. Have known several packer buyers in the past. It isn't hard to find out what the feeder and packer buyers want. And as a commercial breeder that is what we need to raise if we want the top dollar. Like I stated above the current show ring fad isn't what those feeding cattle desire. And if you raise that kind you will be docked. A month ago when she sold some I saw a straight Hereford popping good steer sell among the top of his weight class that day. Being in the top as a single doesn't happen often.He was that good. Again it proves the point that if you raise the good ones there will be a market. I saw a picture of a bull recently you own and interest in and I thought that the bull would throw that kind of steer. That is the same for horses. The good ones will always have a market. I heard a report on the Evan Slack report this week where a pen of straight Hereford steers I believe in the 750 range were among the top 2-3 lots sold in that range. I believe it may of been a Superior auction but not certain. I was working and listening at the same time. If Hereford breeders as a whole will decide to raise what the commercial breeder desires and the feeder and packer demand then the sky is the limit.
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Post by elkwc on Sept 21, 2014 13:47:18 GMT -6
to me this is going to be the most interesting thing to see over the next however many years. imo ranchers are living with those results and multiple other deals. i think it was the same in the past when x breeding with angus just became the easy choice and solution to what the ranchers of the past lived with or let happen and it was like dominos. when i think about the reasons folks went away from running straight herefords in our area and compare that to what i experience here with straight angus... using a hereford bull on them is a no brainer. it will be real interesting to me to watch several areas of mt to see if they just keep doing what they are doing or if that same domino effect will happen only the other way but probably never to the extent that the states herd changed color. what i have to live with in regards to staight hereford cows vs straight angus imo pales in comparison. i wonder if the difference today is in power. i think angus is just so built into the machine. does 0.37 that bll showed an example of really cover the difference? i think if everyone put a pencil to it it would be different. what boggles me is that those same calves run out til yrlng there is no disparity. i have little experience feeding slaughter cattle or owning slaughter cattle but assume there is a disparity there too mostly off more marketing avenues for black hided cattle. regardless i think herefords main place is in the cow factory. to be honest... if i could buy a black bull that was as good at his job as a horned hereford bull of certain lineage ( )i wouldn't have any complaints. think im done wasting grass on black cows. my expereince when Andrea and I were still running stockers 10 years ago (they were always straigth herefords that we put together outa salebarns in NE kansas) was that by the time those calves came off of grass weighing 800+ as yearlings the disparity was all but gone, phenotype and fleshyness were the drivers, never did seen em get hammered (we always sent the lighter ones to the feedyard (either Koch early on or Madder's later) and sold the heavier ones thru the salebarn at either St Mary's or Manhattan in late Sept) realative to any other color or breed in the ten years we ran stockers on the Horizon Ranch we used to rent. Furthermore.over the last past 20 years or so I have never seen a group of straight herefords that we personally have fed out (either Cedar Creek's, our own calves, our bull customers or our stocker cattle) get discounted as fats relative to any other color or breed as well. Once you get past calves you get past color and with yearlings or fats it's all about type and how green/fleshy they are. TK I agree. Another thing many don't mention is if you take them off the cows and to the sale they will be docked up to 20 dollars a hundred. We try to wean them at least two weeks and usually more before we take them to the sale. The owner at the sale mentions it several times throughtout the sale. You will hear some complain every sale when their freshly weaned, bawling calves are docked. But with yearlings and fats color doesn't matter. Like you said it is about type and condition.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 16:34:47 GMT -6
lots of good points from SW Kansas. as far as the red hided dock, I totally agree with you. as for us here I guess if contracting our march/april born Hereford steer calves for $2.87 with a 6 cent slide on a pay weight of 585 lbs last week for third week of October delivery straight off the cow is taking a red hided hit....................
don't make a whole lot of sense to retain ownership on em this year for what their bringing and the money that would be put at risk for another $100 or so per head when you can't hedge em worth the money. kinda hard to screw up this year! i guess the hoot's contracted their 2014 calf crop last winter before they were even born... guess the cow boss lost his job over it. so thats 1675 ish a head. i sold a pot load of steers second week in may 535 @ 2.12. roughly 40 of those steers carry the scary CAN brand. speculator bought them off internet sale and he asked if i'd just peel those calves off the contract as he said he cannot find anyone to take them... but have a feeling he don't really know. been contemplating retaining them maybe background them at home and try to find someone to finish them. if they weigh what contract is thats 1134/hd. if a guy found somewhere to feed them close to a plant that will kill CAN how far out can you contract a load of fats to packer? i hold them over as yrlngs i'll screw the markets up for everyone. sorry if this is way off the topic.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Sept 21, 2014 19:06:27 GMT -6
Apologize for the ignorance, but what is CAN?
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Post by elkwc on Sept 21, 2014 21:07:44 GMT -6
Apologize for the ignorance, but what is CAN? I was wondering the same thing and did a search and couldn't find anything.
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Post by hrndherf on Sept 21, 2014 21:43:57 GMT -6
Apologize for the ignorance, but what is CAN? Cattle imported from Canada into Montana and some other states require a hot iron hip brand of C upside-down V N. Some other states allow cattle to be tattooed. Blackbull-those steers are worth a little more now than when you contracted. Would he pull the contract on the whole works because of the CAN brands?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 7:53:06 GMT -6
Apologize for the ignorance, but what is CAN? Cattle imported from Canada into Montana and some other states require a hot iron hip brand of C upside-down V N. Some other states allow cattle to be tattooed. Blackbull-those steers are worth a little more now than when you contracted. Would he pull the contract on the whole works because of the CAN brands? i asked him that very question. won't repeat on here his response but he damn near pegged me off that one conversation. i've always admitted i was half retarded but i ain't f'ing retarded.
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 22, 2014 9:40:49 GMT -6
lots of good points from SW Kansas. as far as the red hided dock, I totally agree with you. as for us here I guess if contracting our march/april born Hereford steer calves for $2.87 with a 6 cent slide on a pay weight of 585 lbs last week for third week of October delivery straight off the cow is taking a red hided hit....................
don't make a whole lot of sense to retain ownership on em this year for what their bringing and the money that would be put at risk for another $100 or so per head when you can't hedge em worth the money. kinda hard to screw up this year! i guess the hoot's contracted their 2014 calf crop last winter before they were even born... guess the cow boss lost his job over it. so thats 1675 ish a head. i sold a pot load of steers second week in may 535 @ 2.12. roughly 40 of those steers carry the scary CAN brand. speculator bought them off internet sale and he asked if i'd just peel those calves off the contract as he said he cannot find anyone to take them... but have a feeling he don't really know. been contemplating retaining them maybe background them at home and try to find someone to finish them. if they weigh what contract is thats 1134/hd. if a guy found somewhere to feed them close to a plant that will kill CAN how far out can you contract a load of fats to packer? i hold them over as yrlngs i'll screw the markets up for everyone. sorry if this is way off the topic. Ace, I take it you didn't get your deal straightened around with this as@#*$e order buyer after you called me the other day?
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lily
Fresh Calf
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Post by lily on Sept 22, 2014 23:33:46 GMT -6
lots of good points from SW Kansas. as far as the red hided dock, I totally agree with you. as for us here I guess if contracting our march/april born Hereford steer calves for $2.87 with a 6 cent slide on a pay weight of 585 lbs last week for third week of October delivery straight off the cow is taking a red hided hit....................
don't make a whole lot of sense to retain ownership on em this year for what their bringing and the money that would be put at risk for another $100 or so per head when you can't hedge em worth the money. kinda hard to screw up this year! i guess the hoot's contracted their 2014 calf crop last winter before they were even born... guess the cow boss lost his job over it. so thats 1675 ish a head. i sold a pot load of steers second week in may 535 @ 2.12. roughly 40 of those steers carry the scary CAN brand. speculator bought them off internet sale and he asked if i'd just peel those calves off the contract as he said he cannot find anyone to take them... but have a feeling he don't really know. been contemplating retaining them maybe background them at home and try to find someone to finish them. if they weigh what contract is thats 1134/hd. if a guy found somewhere to feed them close to a plant that will kill CAN how far out can you contract a load of fats to packer? i hold them over as yrlngs i'll screw the markets up for everyone. sorry if this is way off the topic. Wonder what it would look like sending them "terrible" CAN branded steers north again, trucking could be reasonable on a back haul, don't know what your export testing and costs would be, but do know what those cattle will do at the feedlot, and kill place should not be a issue either. I would be tempted to tell your buyer to take them all according to contract or forget about the whole deal including future deals.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 23, 2014 2:31:50 GMT -6
dadgumit, I have got to be the only moron in the world who can't get the damn videos to work.
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