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Post by timbernt on Jun 13, 2014 6:25:40 GMT -6
That apparently is where we differ. My impression is that Murdoch, Gates, Ibn Saud, and Clinton are not economically dependent on a successful farm operation and do not concentrate their thoughts and efforts on that operation. My respect goes to those individuals and families that have are physically involved and have a direct economic dependence on their farm operation. And no, I do not believe those people only reside in Missouri. They do live on and with their operation.
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Post by bookcliff on Jun 13, 2014 17:00:35 GMT -6
I think what Tim is trying to say is that often times in the beef business, the symposions and conferences are full of speakers that don't actually make a living raising cattle but they are considered the "guru's". therefore if things aren't the way they profess its no skin off their ass since as as Tim put it they "have no skin in the game" I don't think his comments were meant in anyway to belittle anyone who isn't a producer in the show me state, he was just saying that there are literally hundred of producers in his area that have more "skin in the game" than some of the speakers.
Oh........Bill Clinton a client............a really crude joke comes to mind.
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Post by moon on Jun 13, 2014 17:26:59 GMT -6
Doc is right on, and I get the " skin in the game ", because if I was going to climb Mt. Everest I would consult someone who had made it to the top not someone who always stayed at base camp and drew up a theory on how to scale the mountain top on a chalk board. Bookcliff as always deciphers it well and I agree with him. I am going to BIF next week, but like I said on other threads some of the speakers and theorists who will be telling us how we should be operating at present and in the foreseeable future, are the same ones who sent us down the wrong path with their ill fated recommendations of prior years. When the so called informed are trying to tell you how it should be done, one should ask " How many cows you got?? " I do not believe Doc was attempting to belittle anyone whatsoever, he was just expressing reasoned experience from his perspective.
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Post by Glenn on Jun 13, 2014 17:41:55 GMT -6
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Post by Glenn on Jun 13, 2014 17:42:51 GMT -6
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Post by moon on Jun 13, 2014 17:49:46 GMT -6
Now why is the event in Missouri? If they held it in Montana or Colorado you just might get some people to bring their families along for a nice vacation. Went to a pasture walk last summer that was held by a Murray Grey breeder. The thing broke into two camps almost immediately. On one side you had the rare breed guys and on the other side you have the commercial guys. We couldn't believe they were still in business spending so much money on non essentials and they couldn't believe we spent so little on anything other than the basics. After a few hours of talking past each other most of the commercial guys left shaking their heads.
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Post by moon on Jun 13, 2014 18:01:30 GMT -6
The AHA had one these symposiums a few years back at Miles City, MT, but people complained that it was to far away, and they have had others in different locations but still complaints about location. So Springfield, with Branson just to the south not the Redneck Riviera but close without a beach. Not trying to offer excuse for this location, but AHA thinking half way for most.
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Post by bookcliff on Jun 14, 2014 17:59:33 GMT -6
yes it is a pretty centralized location. only been to branson 2 times, but both a hella lot of fun, but then again first time was a frat road trip party w/ girlfriends in tow some 30 years ago and the second time was going thru Moon's cows
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 7:23:24 GMT -6
Digging up an old thread here... Did anyone here decide to go and have anything to share? Will be interesting to see what kind of information comes out of this
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Post by moon on Sept 6, 2014 19:35:28 GMT -6
I attended the Summit and I can say unequivocally it was the best Hereford conference I have attended since Stillwater, and it was better than the first Young Guns, and almost as good as the World Hereford Conference in 1995, and I attended all three. Big crowd, and almost no one left their seats to be out talking in the hallway. It is regrettable for those who could not go because of other commitments and scheduling conflicts. Others who thought it would be a complete waste of time missed a real and true oppurtunity. First speakers gave insight into the Food Service industry and their opinions on where consumer trends are going. Blach presented data on markets and the changing dynamics. The next speaker was Dr. Kee Jim, and it is a complete understatement when I say he was outstanding. He grew up on Little Fort Herefords in Canada and now is in the feedlot industry. He gave a boots on the ground shooting straight presentation. Based upon data he has compiled from feeding over 180,000 straight Hereford cattle in his opinion Herefords DO NOT separate from other breeds when it comes to Feed Efficiency. That will set a lot of people on their butt. What I learned from him was worth every dollar I spent to attend the Summit, and maybe more when I listened and directed questions to him during the break in the hallway with other breeders. Lorna Marshall was also informative with her customer feedback who are using Hereford semen. She emphasized what almost every speaker did as well pertaining to what Hereford breeders should focus on and the particular data we as breeders should be working on. Dr. Raymond was another who was well worth the cost of attendance. He oversees approx. 12,000 cows and calves 5,000 heifers per year. They been buying Hereford bulls as I recall for about 7 years but could be more or less. One of his observed weaknesses with Hereford bulls will knock you up side the head. It is longevity and libido. His cowboys say Hereford bulls will not work and when it is hot they go to the willows. He said Hereford fertility is no better than Angus, and Hereford cross calves in their feedyard reduce marbling by over 50%. He also provided me with valuable information during the break.
Fink and Schiefelbein both told us, what TK and others told us at past meetings as well as in print, that before Herefords make any kind of move in the Beef Industry they must be an easier sell. In other words, Herefords sired feeder calves lack value, and to get more attention in the Beef Industry must increase value of Hereford feeder calves. He like other speakers, told us if you paid attention, what we as breeders need to do. I am extremely glad I attended. For those who did attend, that by attending they will understand when I say we did not miss the turn in the road as Bill Gates cautions. Finally, the staff at AHA did an incredible job with producing this Summit, and I am grateful for their efforts and this oppurtunity.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2014 19:47:32 GMT -6
He like other speakers, told us if you paid attention, what we as breeders need to do.
Well cut to the chase. What is this secret sauce?
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Post by jjbcattleco on Sept 6, 2014 20:20:58 GMT -6
He like other speakers, told us if you paid attention, what we as breeders need to do.
Well cut to the chase. What is this secret sauce? The common thread was to focus on the strengths of the breed. Great conference with really good speakers. The videos should be on YouTube at some point. Be sure you watch them when they go up.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 6, 2014 21:57:16 GMT -6
I attended the Summit and I can say unequivocally it was the best Hereford conference I have attended since Stillwater, and it was better than the first Young Guns, and almost as good as the World Hereford Conference in 1995, and I attended all three. Big crowd, and almost no one left their seats to be out talking in the hallway. It is regrettable for those who could not go because of other commitments and scheduling conflicts. Others who thought it would be a complete waste of time missed a real and true oppurtunity. First speakers gave insight into the Food Service industry and their opinions on where consumer trends are going. Blach presented data on markets and the changing dynamics. The next speaker was Dr. Kee Jim, and it is a complete understatement when I say he was outstanding. He grew up on Little Fort Herefords in Canada and now is in the feedlot industry. He gave a boots on the ground shooting straight presentation. Based upon data he has compiled from feeding over 180,000 straight Hereford cattle in his opinion Herefords DO NOT separate from other breeds when it comes to Feed Efficiency. That will set a lot of people on their butt. What I learned from him was worth every dollar I spent to attend the Summit, and maybe more when I listened and directed questions to him during the break in the hallway with other breeders. Lorna Marshall was also informative with her customer feedback who are using Hereford semen. She emphasized what almost every speaker did as well pertaining to what Hereford breeders should focus on and the particular data we as breeders should be working on. Dr. Raymond was another who was well worth the cost of attendance. He oversees approx. 12,000 cows and calves 5,000 heifers per year. They been buying Hereford bulls as I recall for about 7 years but could be more or less. One of his observed weaknesses with Hereford bulls will knock you up side the head. It is longevity and libido. His cowboys say Hereford bulls will not work and when it is hot they go to the willows. He said Hereford fertility is no better than Angus, and Hereford cross calves in their feedyard reduce marbling by over 50%. He also provided me with valuable information during the break.
Fink and Schiefelbein both told us, what TK and others told us at past meetings as well as in print, that before Herefords make any kind of move in the Beef Industry they must be an easier sell. In other words, Herefords sired feeder calves lack value, and to get more attention in the Beef Industry must increase value of Hereford feeder calves. He like other speakers, told us if you paid attention, what we as breeders need to do. I am extremely glad I attended. For those who did attend, that by attending they will understand when I say we did not miss the turn in the road as Bill Gates cautions. Finally, the staff at AHA did an incredible job with producing this Summit, and I am grateful for their efforts and this oppurtunity. Philip, thanks for the report. Glad you made it and gave us all a solid report on the goings on. Great to hear that it was a good one and hats off for a job well done. That being said, I have a few questions which I am sure were probably asked or shared prior to some of the revelations. First and most concerning to me was the revelation from Dr. Raymond that the cowboys observed hereford bulls not working in the heat. I am wondering the genetic source, normal vs. possible abnormal environmental conditions, i.e. hotter than normal temps or problems with body condition vs. slicking off. I am assuming that those observations occured mostly in the northwest?!? Just curious to see more of the puzzle there. That is something I have definitley not observed before but anything can happen and usually does. Now the marbling does not surprise me a bit as it shouldn't anyone else on here who has been following/participating in the many discussions on here, but I am curious to know about what they observed that they did like and what they felt herefords did contribute in a positive fashion. After all, hereford beef does eat better at select than other beef does at choice, but have we effectively gotten that message across? MY answer is NO and therein comes the challenge of getting that message across to increase the value in those hereford sired feeders. Do we continue to set ourselves on an imagined 'high horse' and cling to our belief that after 'enough' try hereford they will magically see the light or are we gonna take the facts to them and work our tails off to get the value into those calves that we all know is there but just can't seem to get the message across to those who buy, or is it really there as consistently as we think it is. Alot of food for thought to ponder on and hopefully we can all turn this into a positive discussion to continue to move this great breed forward.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 6, 2014 22:22:18 GMT -6
well rats, I had a good thought process going about how to compare marbling vs eating satisfaction and quantify that into increased value and the darn computer picked the worse time in the world to reset itself before I hit the post button. If ever there was a time for a mulligan. . . So how about it, how do we counteract big marbling whcih generates big dollars which is still what the bottomline is all about? Wishing for a formula that includes eating satisfaction and the sort into the quality grade isn't generating the excitement or the dollars necessary to light enough of these guys and gals up or is it? Is there enough other to go with our 'mediocre' marbling to generate the value? I know there is but I am not the one who needs convinced and me just knowing is kind of like you just knowing and that does nothing for those who just aren't certain.
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Post by shumakerherefords on Sept 7, 2014 15:47:26 GMT -6
well rats, I had a good thought process going about how to compare marbling vs eating satisfaction and quantify that into increased value and the darn computer picked the worse time in the world to reset itself before I hit the post button. If ever there was a time for a mulligan. . . So how about it, how do we counteract big marbling whcih generates big dollars which is still what the bottomline is all about? Wishing for a formula that includes eating satisfaction and the sort into the quality grade isn't generating the excitement or the dollars necessary to light enough of these guys and gals up or is it? Is there enough other to go with our 'mediocre' marbling to generate the value? I know there is but I am not the one who needs convinced and me just knowing is kind of like you just knowing and that does nothing for those who just aren't certain. Agree that hoping to get a premium for Hereford select grade beef because it supposedly tastes better and is more tender is just wishful thinking. However I disagree with the 'mediocre' marbling. Back in mid December I sent 40 steers and heifers out to Royal Beef in Scott City, Kansas. They sold to Tyson on the week of July 7, 2014 for $156/cwt with a 4% shrink. However Tyson didn't take delivery until July 24 which meant they were on feed for 195 days after a 3 week 'warm up'. I couldn't complain because cost of gain was less than $0.90/lb. 25 out of 28 (89.3%) steers graded choice and all 12 (100%) of the heifers graded choice. Now the carcasses sat in the cooler over the weekend and were graded on 28 July. Kstate posts closeout averages for some of the feedlots in Kansas and you can look at the report for July here: www.asi.k-state.edu/about/newsletters/focus-on-feedlots/fofjuly2014.pdfMy data is posted on my website here: www.shumakerherefords.com/smfeedlot.html and you can look at individual performance here: www.shumakerherefords.com/smindividual_performance.htmlMy steers gained 4.15 lb/day compared to the Kansas average of 3.71 Feed/Gain was 5.27 lb/lb compared to the Kansas average of 5.80 My steers cost of gain was $0.884/lb compared to the Kansas average of $0.928 The heifers gained 3.70 lb/day compared to the Kansas average of 3.27 Feed/Gain was 5.07 lb/lb compared to the Kansas Average of 6.11 My heifers cost of gain was $0.860 compared to the Kansas average of $0.998 The point is that Herefords can be much less expensive to feed and can grade with the best of the 'blacks'. The real problem with feeding calves this long is the fat. Many of the calves were Yield Grade 4s which would suffer a penalty if selling on a grid. My hope is that through selection we can reduce the fat cover without sacrificing too much marbling.
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Post by moon on Sept 7, 2014 17:03:29 GMT -6
In response, there is no secret sauce, and the presentations speak for themselves. I am not going to insert my opinions and interpretations from what I gleaned from the speakers because what I heard may be totally different from what the next table heard or understood. I was not told of any YouTube videos, only that attendees would be provided with access to the presentations of the speakers who wish to release them. Told after Summit it would be on a flash drive. Fink said do not ignore non EPD traits and pay attention to problems because he said Herefords got into this mess by not paying attention to problems. Even though one opinion is to continuing to focus on breed strengths, how/will that increase the value of Hereford feeder calves and make Herefords an easier sell? Picketwire, genetic source not offered or identified, only said purchases made in Northwest. Runs on very rough country in 4 states which most is not accessible by pickup truck. Positive contributions on cow side is heterois, feed efficiency, moderate milk, longevity, docility, maternal versatility, and fleshing ability. You can throw away as high and as far as you can all the Select Hereford beef eating as good as choice propaganda because the Beef Industry does not care, and the consumer does not care. There is not enough value in it to make any difference according to speakers. Schiefelbein said " those that write the checks write the rules ", Packers write the checks and they want Choice or greater. Fink said Hereford breeders " shift gears or get run over ". Fink said do not chase fads and especially do not chase EPDs, and just because you have a great grandson of the the grand champion of wherever fat stock show or son of high seller somewhere else means nothing, and anyone can say they have the next so called great one, because if your not data driven with cow sense game over. Fink said he is considering a red hided breed, but would not say what he is considering. This Summit taken together with WHC, first Young Guns, and Stillwater reconfirms what Hereford breeders must do to increase acceptance of Hereford sired calves in the Beef Industry. I emphasize Hereford breeders, because breeders have to take the steps to do it large or small, individually or in groups with common goals and ideas. AHA gave us access to the speakers and presentations, Hereford breeders must implement and take the necessary action to increase value and profitability for our customers, because like Fink said, and Schiefelbein affirmed, " the customer has lots of options!!!, you don't. "
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Post by Glenn on Sept 7, 2014 17:35:51 GMT -6
Too bad the cattle industry has let the tail wag the dog. LOL
I think I'll keep doing what I'm doing. I've sold out of bulls for three straight years before the end of May and have a waiting list of customers to buy my females at a very, very nice price and all it takes is a text. I'm sure not going to shift gears because a Angus breeder gets up and beats his chest or some outfit in the NW bought some bad bulls.
Just like I said on the gestation length tread, someone else can tilt at those windmills.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 8, 2014 7:15:02 GMT -6
Another observation. Angus is a breed in decline and will be for quite some time. Their main strength over the "other breeds" was marbling ability. Now we have Wagyu. Wagyu marbling ability even in F1 crosses is so far ahead of Angus marbling it would be like comparing your local HS football team to the current Seattle Seahawks. It is a game they will never win. The only HOPE for the Angus breed and the Angus association going forward is the CAB program. The reason is they can use the program to process all stripes of Wagyu and Wagyu cross as long as they are black hided. There has been some big upheaval in the Angus association and the show has just started as a infamous football player once said 'get your popcorn ready".
Now if Angus are that far behind Wagyu in marbling, be honest here, where do Herefords sit on that scale?
I was going to get crass but I will stop here I think anybody with a lick of sense can figure this out.
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Post by jayh on Sept 8, 2014 8:24:16 GMT -6
Why would we even want to try and be like angus? Herefords are good all around breed as are angus why do I want to listen to someone say we need to marble better? I butcher my own and it is good to eat. Unlike the prime rib sandwich I had sat night which I couldn't even chew. ( 100% angus ) worst sandwich I ever tried to eat. Was it angus ? who knows. was it Hereford who knows. I just know everthing I have butchered was fit to eat and this wasn't.
We as breeders need to be leaders not followers. We will not please everyone and we don't have to. That's the reason there are so many breeds and not just one.
Why would we want to single trait select for marbling. I wont. As for the lazy bulls never my experience but mine is limited.cant wait to listen to this on you tube if it ever gets there. Will watch and listen.
Puzzle pieces guys puzzle pieces.
LEAD DONT FOLLOW.
P.S. Glenn Good post.
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Post by George on Sept 8, 2014 10:17:45 GMT -6
I guess I'm definitely in the minority. I had a chance to sample Kobe Beef - three different cuts including a Filet - along with a CAB Filet at Tom Colicchio's CRAFTSTEAK Restaurant in Las Vegas, NV a few years back. The CAB filet was far superior in taste to all that fatty KOBE crap as far as I was concerned.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 8, 2014 11:13:47 GMT -6
Picketwire, genetic source not offered or identified, only said purchases made in Northwest. Runs on very rough country in 4 states which most is not accessible by pickup truck. Positive contributions on cow side is heterois, feed efficiency, moderate milk, longevity, docility, maternal versatility, and fleshing ability. You can throw away as high and as far as you can all the Select Hereford beef eating as good as choice propaganda because the Beef Industry does not care, and the consumer does not care. There is not enough value in it to make any difference according to speakers. Schiefelbein said " those that write the checks write the rules ", Packers write the checks and they want Choice or greater. Fink said Hereford breeders " shift gears or get run over ". Fink said do not chase fads and especially do not chase EPDs, and just because you have a great grandson of the the grand champion of wherever fat stock show or son of high seller somewhere else means nothing, and anyone can say they have the next so called great one, because if your not data driven with cow sense game over. Fink said he is considering a red hided breed, but would not say what he is considering.
This Summit taken together with WHC, first Young Guns, and Stillwater reconfirms what Hereford breeders must do to increase acceptance of Hereford sired calves in the Beef Industry. I emphasize Hereford breeders, because breeders have to take the steps to do it large or small, individually or in groups with common goals and ideas. AHA gave us access to the speakers and presentations, Hereford breeders must implement and take the necessary action to increase value and profitability for our customers, because like Fink said, and Schiefelbein affirmed, " the customer has lots of options!!!, you don't. "
[/quote]
Philip, right on the money and thank you for putting it out there exactly right. I highlighted the quote above because it is EXACTLY the truth whether we all want to believe it or not!!! Now there is room for us to all do our own thing and for me the bottom line is as long as we are making improvement then we, as a breed, are moving forward.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 8, 2014 11:15:47 GMT -6
well rats, I had a good thought process going about how to compare marbling vs eating satisfaction and quantify that into increased value and the darn computer picked the worse time in the world to reset itself before I hit the post button. If ever there was a time for a mulligan. . . So how about it, how do we counteract big marbling whcih generates big dollars which is still what the bottomline is all about? Wishing for a formula that includes eating satisfaction and the sort into the quality grade isn't generating the excitement or the dollars necessary to light enough of these guys and gals up or is it? Is there enough other to go with our 'mediocre' marbling to generate the value? I know there is but I am not the one who needs convinced and me just knowing is kind of like you just knowing and that does nothing for those who just aren't certain. Agree that hoping to get a premium for Hereford select grade beef because it supposedly tastes better and is more tender is just wishful thinking. However I disagree with the 'mediocre' marbling. Back in mid December I sent 40 steers and heifers out to Royal Beef in Scott City, Kansas. They sold to Tyson on the week of July 7, 2014 for $156/cwt with a 4% shrink. However Tyson didn't take delivery until July 24 which meant they were on feed for 195 days after a 3 week 'warm up'. I couldn't complain because cost of gain was less than $0.90/lb. 25 out of 28 (89.3%) steers graded choice and all 12 (100%) of the heifers graded choice. Now the carcasses sat in the cooler over the weekend and were graded on 28 July. Kstate posts closeout averages for some of the feedlots in Kansas and you can look at the report for July here: www.asi.k-state.edu/about/newsletters/focus-on-feedlots/fofjuly2014.pdfMy data is posted on my website here: www.shumakerherefords.com/smfeedlot.html and you can look at individual performance here: www.shumakerherefords.com/smindividual_performance.htmlMy steers gained 4.15 lb/day compared to the Kansas average of 3.71 Feed/Gain was 5.27 lb/lb compared to the Kansas average of 5.80 My steers cost of gain was $0.884/lb compared to the Kansas average of $0.928 The heifers gained 3.70 lb/day compared to the Kansas average of 3.27 Feed/Gain was 5.07 lb/lb compared to the Kansas Average of 6.11 My heifers cost of gain was $0.860 compared to the Kansas average of $0.998 The point is that Herefords can be much less expensive to feed and can grade with the best of the 'blacks'. The real problem with feeding calves this long is the fat. Many of the calves were Yield Grade 4s which would suffer a penalty if selling on a grid. My hope is that through selection we can reduce the fat cover without sacrificing too much marbling. Agreed and thanks to you for putting that data out there, I, for one, will be taking some time to dig into it in depth and glean what I can. The more data like this available the better tools we have to show what this breed is capable of doing.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 8, 2014 11:17:49 GMT -6
LOL --- Did you not see that you don't matter. All that matters is that it grades upper 2/3rds choice or higher which a Wagyu or percentage Wagyu on a black cow is going to do. You're CAB steak may have been part Kobe or part Holstein or whatever the only thing you can know it was upper 2/3rds choice grade and was 51% black hided when they jerked the skin off it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 14:40:06 GMT -6
LOL --- Did you not see that you don't matter. All that matters is that it grades upper 2/3rds choice or higher which a Wagyu or percentage Wagyu on a black cow is going to do. You're CAB steak may have been part Kobe or part Holstein or whatever the only thing you can know it was upper 2/3rds choice grade and was 51% black hided when they jerked the skin off it. I wouldn't bet the farm on that one all the time either.
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Post by moon on Sept 8, 2014 14:49:45 GMT -6
Why would we even want to try and be like angus? Herefords are good all around breed as are angus why do I want to listen to someone say we need to marble better? I butcher my own and it is good to eat. Unlike the prime rib sandwich I had sat night which I couldn't even chew. ( 100% angus ) worst sandwich I ever tried to eat. Was it angus ? who knows. was it Hereford who knows. I just know everthing I have butchered was fit to eat and this wasn't. We as breeders need to be leaders not followers. We will not please everyone and we don't have to. That's the reason there are so many breeds and not just one. Why would we want to single trait select for marbling. I wont. As for the lazy bulls never my experience but mine is limited.cant wait to listen to this on you tube if it ever gets there. Will watch and listen. Puzzle pieces guys puzzle pieces. LEAD DONT FOLLOW. P.S. Glenn Good post.
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