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Post by Glenn on Sept 8, 2014 15:01:22 GMT -6
LOL --- Did you not see that you don't matter. All that matters is that it grades upper 2/3rds choice or higher which a Wagyu or percentage Wagyu on a black cow is going to do. You're CAB steak may have been part Kobe or part Holstein or whatever the only thing you can know it was upper 2/3rds choice grade and was 51% black hided when they jerked the skin off it. I wouldn't bet the farm on that one all the time either. Certainly true
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Post by moon on Sept 8, 2014 16:37:12 GMT -6
Hit wrong key so made mistake in trying to quote jayh. Since I tried to hit bullet points on what speakers said, and have not attempted to give play by play of each presentation, some of you because you were unable to attend have presumed some of the speakers were touting Angus and suggesting Herefords should try to be more like Angus which is totally inaccurate. Fink encouraged Hereford breeders to never attempt to be like any breed and especially Angus, so did Lorna Marshall, and as did the other speakers. In fact Fink said he is aggravated with the Angus breed and Marshall said she was dissapointed with Angus. They each addressed negatives with Angus genetics. Then pointed out specific Hereford traits that Hereford breeders need to continue to work on and areas where breeders should collect more data to be more competitive and add value to Hereford feeder calves. To me many of the speakers validated what participants in GOP/NHF have been doing for approx. 20 years, and if paying attention to carcass traits as well as other measured and unmeasured traits is some people's definition of single trait selection so be it. The speakers also validated the efforts of many breeders I personally know who have continued to collect actual feedlot and harvest data on their own cattle despite no unfied support from the AHA board. I am not trying to persuade anyone only relating what I heard. Doing your own thing can be defined in different ways by different Hereford breeders. I can point to several breeders who participate on HT who are doing their own thing but who also do not ignore carcass traits and continue to work on these traits within their own herds. Doing your own thing may be considered by some of us as another form of single trait selection if you believe those of us who continue to measure carcass traits and collect actual feedlot and harvest data are trying to be like Angus.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 8, 2014 16:50:03 GMT -6
I'm sure my post came off that way. I sure advocate every breeder trying to improve all traits of relevance to them whatever they may be. We all have to try to get better.
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Post by guffeygal on Sept 8, 2014 18:09:47 GMT -6
I don't believe the part about Hereford bulls not working in hot weather. I have been around Hereford bulls and hot weather all my life and have never had the problem. Usually we get above 100 quite a bit some times 110+. Some people that are use to Angus bulls do not think the Hereford bulls are working when they really are. Hereford bulls just don't make such a commotion out of doing their job. In hot weather they often works nights and early mornings.
I don't buy the cost of gain either. I am pretty sure Tom Granzow has the data on that from The Hereford Feedout.
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Post by elkwc on Sept 8, 2014 22:08:45 GMT -6
I don't believe the part about Hereford bulls not working in hot weather. I have been around Hereford bulls and hot weather all my life and have never had the problem. Usually we get above 100 quite a bit some times 110+. Some people that are use to Angus bulls do not think the Hereford bulls are working when they really are. Hereford bulls just don't make such a commotion out of doing their job. In hot weather they often works nights and early mornings. I don't buy the cost of gain either. I am pretty sure Tom Granzow has the data on that from The Hereford Feedout. Guffeygal, I agree with you. I was raised on ranches in what I would call arid NM. Hot, dry and windy many times. As one old timer would state " The current drought started the day after the last rain."They stocking rate was 50-65 acres per cow or more in the rocky, shallow soil tight ground. Every rancher I knew said that got better percentage of calf crops with Hereford bulls than any other breed. I know most ranchers figured 25 cows per bull with Hereford bull and 20 with Angus and other breeds. I knew of ranchers that ran both Hereford and Angus bulls in the same pastures. The majority of the time there would be more Hereford sired calves than Angus sired calves. I've know some successful feeders who have fed cattle for 35 years or more that would disgagree with the cost of gain statement. Again these seminars are full of speakers who have no skin in the game. Let them get a loan and invest some money in live cattle and then I'll listen to their comments.
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Post by George on Sept 9, 2014 6:18:17 GMT -6
Again these seminars are full of speakers who have no skin in the game. Let them get a loan and invest some money in live cattle and then I'll listen to their comments. I'll listen - if and when the videos are loaded. Not sure I'll agree - or follow their advice. The big concern I do have in the feedback, so far, is the continued push toward taking all the "rhine" off. That may be the ideal in the feedlot and slaughter room, but I'm not so sure it is a trait that favors the cows out working in the pasture, especially those that are expected to survive the winter on dry grass and water, like many in our area do under normal conditions.
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Post by guffeygal on Sept 9, 2014 6:27:39 GMT -6
Again these seminars are full of speakers who have no skin in the game. Let them get a loan and invest some money in live cattle and then I'll listen to their comments. I'll listen - if and when the videos are loaded. Not sure I'll agree - or follow their advice. The big concern I do have in the feedback, so far, is the continued push toward taking all the "rhine" off. That may be the ideal in the feedlot and slaughter room, but I'm not so sure it is a trait that favors the cows out working in the pasture, especially those that are expected to survive the winter on dry grass and water, like many in our area do under normal conditions. Very True. My Father often said "You can't do all the trimming for the packer. They have to use their knives some."
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Post by bltherf on Sept 9, 2014 7:33:41 GMT -6
I'll listen - if and when the videos are loaded. Not sure I'll agree - or follow their advice. The big concern I do have in the feedback, so far, is the continued push toward taking all the "rhine" off. That may be the ideal in the feedlot and slaughter room, but I'm not so sure it is a trait that favors the cows out working in the pasture, especially those that are expected to survive the winter on dry grass and water, like many in our area do under normal conditions. Very True. My Father often said "You can't do all the trimming for the packer. They have to use their knives some." Very true statements. The one thing that keeps the Hereford popularity in many regions is the cows ability to make it on marginal inputs. As the saying goes ; Herefords starve the best; One thing we never want to have happen is to let the packers design our cattle. They would love to I,m sure , but a rancher could never live with the results. I think that model is out there to see in some other breeds. We can tweak our weaknesses but we never want to compromise our strengths.
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 10, 2014 11:13:06 GMT -6
I believe that the cow calf industry will evolve into two segments: one focused on raising heifers and the other focused on raising steers. If we look at what the best practices of breeding and raising steers compared with those of breeding and raising cows, we will find they are considerably different. I think that in the marketplace we will see premiums for terminal sired calves, and for crossbred brood cows. The Hereford cannot compete with the built in advantages that Wagyu, Piedmontese, or Angus have on producing the best steer. But, the Hereford can be unparalleled as one component for producing brood cows. While I believe that we should try to improve in all traits, the Hereford should focus on fertility, longevity, and converting low quality feed into good production.
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Post by Mickelson on Sept 10, 2014 16:15:19 GMT -6
Insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. When I say that, the Hereford discount comes to mind. We all piss and moan about it, yet we seem to rely on the same old Hereford strengths to change our future. Those strengths should be a foundation to build upon. IMO something in the Hereford breed has to give, if not we will always play second fiddle. To me the Summit report comes as a wake-up signal and much appreciated. Sure wish I would have attended.
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Post by jayh on Sept 10, 2014 16:35:06 GMT -6
I believe that the cow calf industry will evolve into two segments: one focused on raising heifers and the other focused on raising steers. If we look at what the best practices of breeding and raising steers compared with those of breeding and raising cows, we will find they are considerably different. I think that in the marketplace we will see premiums for terminal sired calves, and for crossbred brood cows. The Hereford cannot compete with the built in advantages that Wagyu, Piedmontese, or Angus have on producing the best steer. But, the Hereford can be unparalleled as one component for producing brood cows. While I believe that we should try to improve in all traits, the Hereford should focus on fertility, longevity, and converting low quality feed into good production. Good response. I guess what I am saying is don't try and make them something their not. Just like you are saying ( I think anyway )
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Post by Glenn on Sept 10, 2014 17:43:23 GMT -6
THA blurb on FB
>>>Thought provoking, stimulating, and refreshing were some of the comments we heard about the AHA Genetic Summit. Certainly, the AHA and Missouri State University left no stones unturned to provide gracious hospitality to Hereford breeders including thirty from Texas. Proceedings will be available from the AHA and should be must reading for all. Feed efficiency and marbling were much discussed. The AHA will offer a lower cost for genomic EPD panels October 1.<<<
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 10, 2014 18:15:51 GMT -6
THA blurb on FB >>> Feed efficiency and marbling were much discussed. <<< big deal. until our organization gets serious and actually does something about it other than the customary lip service to these two traits that has been giong on since the First Young guns, nothing will change. want to have real marbling, not the lame-ass, inaccurate paper kind, bring back the Carcass ROM program where steers actually either grading or not meant something instead of the current paper ratio to EPD to index to CHB merit sire crap. want to have real feed effeincy, start emphasising the old GOP program, instead of trying to do some wild withcraft genomics link to a trait that very very few cattle in this breed have actual data on and even fewer programs have even participated in even once (growsafe data or individual feedlot performance and conversion data on "papered mating" steers) discussion is all that ever happens, and until we as breeders of whiteface cattle do something more than that we aren't serious about being a viable longterm player in the beef industry .
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Post by tartancowgirl on Sept 11, 2014 6:40:15 GMT -6
Very True. My Father often said "You can't do all the trimming for the packer. They have to use their knives some." Very true statements. The one thing that keeps the Hereford popularity in many regions is the cows ability to make it on marginal inputs. As the saying goes ; Herefords starve the best; One thing we never want to have happen is to let the packers design our cattle. They would love to I,m sure , but a rancher could never live with the results. I think that model is out there to see in some other breeds. We can tweak our weaknesses but we never want to compromise our strengths. As I understand it, this is what made the Hereford breed great in the past. The trouble I think we have in the UK, where the Hereford has really lost popularity to the continental breeds, is that the Hereford people can't make up their mind whether they want to be terminal or maternal and they probably can't be both. Also the meat processors keep changing the goal posts, so farmers think they've got it sorted, only to be told they're looking for something else!
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Post by Glenn on Sept 11, 2014 7:02:48 GMT -6
the Hereford people can't make up their mind whether they want to be terminal or maternal and they probably can't be both. ]Also the meat processors keep changing the goal posts, so farmers think they've got it sorted, only to be told they're looking for something else! Great stuff and as true or more here in the U.S.
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Post by larso on Sept 11, 2014 15:40:09 GMT -6
I sometimes wonder about this debate. We are told that 60% of what goes down the animals throat influence's the quality of the beast, also the stress level at the point of slaughter can effect the PH which will in turn affect the quality of the meat, then there is the length of time the body is hung in the chiller making a huge difference , as one meat buyer said to me the other day ' we don't hang our meat long enough these days ' so why then are we being asked to select for certain traits ( marbling ) that could compromise the very traits that makes the Hereford the great breed it is today. What we need is a decent well oiled marketing strategy that promotes the benefits of having Hereford blood in our commercial herds. All this makes me feel like the ' old blind cowboy ' that accidently walks into a all-girl bike'y bar, sits down and orders a beer. After a couple he says in a loud voice ' any one want to hear a blonde joke ' The girl on his right says ' I know you are blind but I can give you 5 reasons not to do that ' 1- The girl that served you your beer is blonde and she is holding a baseball bat. 2- The bouncer who let you in is blonde and she has a club in hand. 3- The girl on your left is blonde and she is the world wrestling champion. 4- There is a blonde girl standing behind you packing a gun. 5- And I happen to be blonde and have a black belt in karate. Now do you still want to tell that ' blonde ' joke. The old cowboy thought for a while then said 'no I don't think I will, I couldn't be bothered having to explain it 5 times.
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Post by moon on Sept 12, 2014 13:41:36 GMT -6
For those who could not attend, go to www.herefordgeneticsummit.com and you can view the presentations and proceedings for yourself. Also, if you receive Hereford enews there is a link posted in the September 12 edition. Also, post presentation interviews of the speakers are also posted.
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Post by oldduffer on Sept 15, 2014 8:50:01 GMT -6
My wife read MOON'S 6 Sept posting RE: our poor feed efficiency, bulls that lack longevity and libido, females with only average fertility, the reduction in marbling caused our breed, and feeder calves lacking value. She suggested that if we were really interested in producing quality beef; we should cut all our bulls and abort the cows and make them into hamburger, and veal out all the calves; so we did not produce any more genetic junk for the industry. I told her not to worry; we did NOT need to get black hided cattle. The KC Kid and the Big rims would turn this over to the show ring committee and they would solve all our problems by selecting "Role Model" cattle at all the major shows. [She also wondered what our breed improvement/genetic improvement staff and committees had been doing the last 20 years.]
" I may not be right...........................but I'm dam sure!"
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Post by bllcattle on Sept 15, 2014 22:16:05 GMT -6
Watched the superior video last friday. Group of Angus calves out of South eastern Montana bring 2.89 at 625 pounds. Next lot same area of straight hereford steers sell for 2.52 at same weight. Well I am sorry but something dam wrong. No producer can stand to lose that much.
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Post by guffeygal on Sept 16, 2014 8:39:29 GMT -6
Watched the superior video last friday. Group of Angus calves out of South eastern Montana bring 2.89 at 625 pounds. Next lot same area of straight hereford steers sell for 2.52 at same weight. Well I am sorry but something dam wrong. No producer can stand to lose that much. In this area the Straight Hereford cow herds are pretty well gone and have been for close to 15 years. I think it is a fact of life and happened because of the reason posted above. I think our challenge is to convince the ranchers with the solid black cow herds to use Hereford bulls. Many in our area are. They are rediscovering the black baldy and some of The Angus genetic issues are a definite factor too. We as a breed need to work to be as big a piece of the crossbreeding pie as we can be and I think most of it will be through the bull side. Most of our area ranchers are going to raise their females. They will keep at least a portion of their Black Baldy females. We need to help convince them to use a two breed rotation back and forth. The hybrid vigor is there, the longevity is there, you can top the market at any weight, and still raise a cow to go on with. If a rancher is going to run straight Herefords I think they need to find a way to sell cattle at feeder weight rather than calves. Hide color spread is gone or pretty well gone by then.I don't know if it is still true but in years past (10-15) Hereford calves had a stigma of getting sick worse. I think it was mostly a management issue of not preconditioning and is hopefully gone now. Another option is to produce some black baldies and don't let the sale barn sort them. I have seen this work.
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Post by larso on Sept 16, 2014 14:51:59 GMT -6
There is a very well respected consultancy company here in AUS who bench marked beef producers, and the top 2% of them were all using Hereford bulls over their cows and Angus bulls over their heifers, that way they had a self- replacing herd while still retaining hybrid vigor. If only that message could get through to commercial Angus breeders we probably wouldn't have enough Hereford bulls to supply.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 16, 2014 15:44:21 GMT -6
Agree with Mike and Larso 100%.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 8:38:33 GMT -6
Very True. My Father often said "You can't do all the trimming for the packer. They have to use their knives some." Very true statements. The one thing that keeps the Hereford popularity in many regions is the cows ability to make it on marginal inputs. As the saying goes ; Herefords starve the best; One thing we never want to have happen is to let the packers design our cattle. They would love to I,m sure , but a rancher could never live with the results. I think that model is out there to see in some other breeds. We can tweak our weaknesses but we never want to compromise our strengths.to me this is going to be the most interesting thing to see over the next however many years. imo ranchers are living with those results and multiple other deals. i think it was the same in the past when x breeding with angus just became the easy choice and solution to what the ranchers of the past lived with or let happen and it was like dominos. when i think about the reasons folks went away from running straight herefords in our area and compare that to what i experience here with straight angus... using a hereford bull on them is a no brainer. it will be real interesting to me to watch several areas of mt to see if they just keep doing what they are doing or if that same domino effect will happen only the other way but probably never to the extent that the states herd changed color. what i have to live with in regards to staight hereford cows vs straight angus imo pales in comparison. i wonder if the difference today is in power. i think angus is just so built into the machine. does 0.37 that bll showed an example of really cover the difference? i think if everyone put a pencil to it it would be different. what boggles me is that those same calves run out til yrlng there is no disparity. i have little experience feeding slaughter cattle or owning slaughter cattle but assume there is a disparity there too mostly off more marketing avenues for black hided cattle. regardless i think herefords main place is in the cow factory. to be honest... if i could buy a black bull that was as good at his job as a horned hereford bull of certain lineage ( )i wouldn't have any complaints. think im done wasting grass on black cows.
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Post by jayh on Sept 17, 2014 12:47:11 GMT -6
Very true statements. The one thing that keeps the Hereford popularity in many regions is the cows ability to make it on marginal inputs. As the saying goes ; Herefords starve the best; One thing we never want to have happen is to let the packers design our cattle. They would love to I,m sure , but a rancher could never live with the results. I think that model is out there to see in some other breeds. We can tweak our weaknesses but we never want to compromise our strengths.to me this is going to be the most interesting thing to see over the next however many years. imo ranchers are living with those results and multiple other deals. i think it was the same in the past when x breeding with angus just became the easy choice and solution to what the ranchers of the past lived with or let happen and it was like dominos. when i think about the reasons folks went away from running straight herefords in our area and compare that to what i experience here with straight angus... using a hereford bull on them is a no brainer. it will be real interesting to me to watch several areas of mt to see if they just keep doing what they are doing or if that same domino effect will happen only the other way but probably never to the extent that the states herd changed color. what i have to live with in regards to staight hereford cows vs straight angus imo pales in comparison. i wonder if the difference today is in power. i think angus is just so built into the machine. does 0.37 that bll showed an example of really cover the difference? i think if everyone put a pencil to it it would be different. what boggles me is that those same calves run out til yrlng there is no disparity. i have little experience feeding slaughter cattle or owning slaughter cattle but assume there is a disparity there too mostly off more marketing avenues for black hided cattle. regardless i think herefords main place is in the cow factory. to be honest... if i could buy a black bull that was as good at his job as a horned hereford bull of certain lineage ( )i wouldn't have any complaints. think im done wasting grass on black cows.Me to.
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 18, 2014 12:15:58 GMT -6
Watched the superior video last friday. Group of Angus calves out of South eastern Montana bring 2.89 at 625 pounds. Next lot same area of straight hereford steers sell for 2.52 at same weight. Well I am sorry but something dam wrong. No producer can stand to lose that much. For a long time Herefords have been victims of our own former popularity. The outfits that have not bought bulls have predominantly whiteface cattle. And, so whiteface cattle are discounted at the sale barn because they are perceived as inbred mongrels. I have great hope that soon black cattle will become more popular among the mongrel outfits and the Hereford will be judged for what it is.
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