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Post by strojanherefords on Aug 23, 2020 14:24:49 GMT -6
Since we now have a mini Hereford breeder here, I have a few questions about miniature cattle.
I like small cows but how does it make sense to reduce size through the sire side?
Can miniature cows be bred to a normal non calving ease bull and not have calving difficulty?
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Post by lcc on Aug 24, 2020 19:56:59 GMT -6
Since we now have a mini Hereford breeder here, I have a few questions about miniature cattle. I like small cows but how does it make sense to reduce size through the sire side? Can miniature cows be bred to a normal non calving ease bull and not have calving difficulty? Okay, I'll join in too. I'm wondering about the reverse: breeding full sized heifers to mini bulls. Say if you're selling commercial replacement bred heifers and want to try and guarantee no calving issues. How dinky will the calves be? Can a mini bull breed, say, a frame 6 or 7 heifer, or would this hypothetical scenario have to be AI only? |
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Post by lcc on Aug 24, 2020 20:07:32 GMT -6
Since we now have a mini Hereford breeder here, I have a few questions about miniature cattle. I like small cows but how does it make sense to reduce size through the sire side? Can miniature cows be bred to a normal non calving ease bull and not have calving difficulty? Okay, I'll join in too. I'm wondering about the reverse: breeding full sized heifers to mini bulls. Say if you're selling commercial replacement bred heifers and want to try and guarantee no calving issues. How dinky will the calves be? Can a mini bull breed, say, a frame 6 or 7 heifer, or would this hypothetical scenario have to be AI only? I also just realize that a quick Google search does not return much for "miniature herefords weaning weight." Adding a question, what kind of 205 day weights do the mini's have? |
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Post by soherf on Sept 1, 2020 8:03:41 GMT -6
To reply to the questions I'll answer what I can:
Mini bulls can breed large 7-9 frame cows. I have several older bulls that do, it boggles the mind and makes the neighbor scratch his head.
The half mini calves I've had all hit nearly 1,000 at 14 months of age.
Not all mini bulls are what I would consider "calving ease" as some have broad wide shoulders. I prefer a longer leaner torpedo shaped calf that can be expelled with a single good cough from the cow.
My 41.5" bull was 1200 on grass and barely fit in the hydraulic chute at the Vet. These aren't dainty cattle.
Mini cows should have the ability to be bred to modern frame bulls as long as proper planning and careful matings are considered.
Breeding modern frame heifers to mini or classic sized bulls is a growing trend. My classic bull calves sell as soon as I can get the DNA samples run and results back, around the 30 day mark.
I have several classic size heifers that have done well in the show ring and the judges gobble them up, in both the mini and Hereford breed divisions.
Mini Hereford breeders are typically pedigree breeders and as thus we don't report EPDs to the AHA. I'm not saying the data isn't out there but it's not reported in most mini herds. I think the data might skew the data pool for the AHA if breeders with mixed herds reported both modern and mini it could mess up their contemporary groups.
The benefit of mini bloodlines is that they are in essence line bred with inbreeding coefficients commonly found in the 30-40% range. These are usually older horned lines that were not bred for the "bigger is better" trend that appeared in the 60-70's when magically Herefords got big almost overnight.
If you want to get heterosis inside a purebred Hereford the only way is with the influx of mini blood.
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Post by mj on Sept 3, 2020 7:47:00 GMT -6
At the very least your vet needs a new chute
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 10, 2020 11:00:44 GMT -6
To reply to the questions I'll answer what I can: Mini bulls can breed large 7-9 frame cows. I have several older bulls that do, it boggles the mind and makes the neighbor scratch his head. The half mini calves I've had all hit nearly 1,000 at 14 months of age. Not all mini bulls are what I would consider "calving ease" as some have broad wide shoulders. I prefer a longer leaner torpedo shaped calf that can be expelled with a single good cough from the cow. My 41.5" bull was 1200 on grass and barely fit in the hydraulic chute at the Vet. These aren't dainty cattle. Mini cows should have the ability to be bred to modern frame bulls as long as proper planning and careful matings are considered. Breeding modern frame heifers to mini or classic sized bulls is a growing trend. My classic bull calves sell as soon as I can get the DNA samples run and results back, around the 30 day mark. I have several classic size heifers that have done well in the show ring and the judges gobble them up, in both the mini and Hereford breed divisions. Mini Hereford breeders are typically pedigree breeders and as thus we don't report EPDs to the AHA. I'm not saying the data isn't out there but it's not reported in most mini herds. I think the data might skew the data pool for the AHA if breeders with mixed herds reported both modern and mini it could mess up their contemporary groups. The benefit of mini bloodlines is that they are in essence line bred with inbreeding coefficients commonly found in the 30-40% range. These are usually older horned lines that were not bred for the "bigger is better" trend that appeared in the 60-70's when magically Herefords got big almost overnight. If you want to get heterosis inside a purebred Hereford the only way is with the influx of mini blood. I feel like we are having two different conversations. Let me put it this way, wouldn't it make more sense to buy $600 corriente cows and breed them to a Hereford bull. |
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Post by soherf on Oct 9, 2020 7:20:14 GMT -6
If someone wanted to breed Corrientes to Herefords why wouldn't they just hit the sale barn and get cheap Longhorns?
The better explanation is that these are old preserved bloodlines, think of heirloom tomatoes.
I can tell you the older ranchers remember this size of cattle. It's not for everyone but then again neither is the frame 8, 1900 lb cow due to high feed input. Most University models place the most efficient cow size at (or around) 1100 lbs. Using mini bulls on large frame females can give a breeder the power to correct frame score/weight in a single generation if they so desire. The "cherry on top" is that these cattle can maintain their AHA registrations while doing so.
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Post by timbernt on Oct 9, 2020 18:45:34 GMT -6
I guess I am old because I remember the little ones. I am still scared of them, and where they take the breed.
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Post by soherf on Oct 11, 2020 8:47:59 GMT -6
I guess I am old because I remember the little ones. I am still scared of them, and where they take the breed. Why would you be scared of "where they take the breed?" This is the foundation of the breed minus the "frame race" questionable injection of non-hereford blood. |
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Post by timbernt on Oct 11, 2020 9:47:54 GMT -6
Would you care to give me a little history and timeline of your involvement in the commercial cattle business in general and the Hereford breed in particular so I can better answer your question?
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Post by soherf on Oct 12, 2020 6:50:31 GMT -6
I like a good story so just start from the beginning...
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Post by timbernt on Oct 12, 2020 18:42:39 GMT -6
As far as starting from the beginning, I think my posts on this forum adequately explain my view of Hereford history. The idea that miniature cattle are the roots of the Hereford breed is creative history. Some of the foundation bulls weighed as much as 4000 lbs. In 1929 my grandfather purchased a straight Gudgell and Simpson bull calf from Mousel for $500. A Bright Stanway grandson. When the bull was 9 years old he was shipped by rail to the Omaha stockyards after wintering on cornstalks. Kill weight was 2700 lbs. The little cattle were selected for starting with Prince Domino. I believe he was about an 1800 lb bull in moderate condition. The chase for small cattle continued until the high plains feedlots began to dominate cattle feeding in the late 60s. The Madison type conference in 1969 was when the AHA recognized reality that there was no place for low growth cattle in the future. The idea newbies and college professors have that the "frame race" was a mistake is an idea propagated by people with no experience of how little value the genetics behind your cattle have. I grew up with those pedigrees. They have no place in the commercial cattle business. If I took one of your miniatures to any salebarn in Missouri, I doubt I would get a bid. You no doubt are very knowledgeable about many facets of marketing, but you need to visit with real livestock market people. You are obviously passionate about your cattle, but don't lie to yourself about their usefulness in the real world.
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Post by elkwc on Oct 13, 2020 21:30:33 GMT -6
I know some mini breeders and for some they are the best choice. Especially on small acreages. One I know has a waiting list for those they butcher. Everything they don't retain or sold for breeding stock are butchered. They are easy fleshing cattle. It might be hard to sell them at a sale barn but easy to sell them as processed meat.
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Post by timbernt on Oct 14, 2020 6:01:49 GMT -6
My opinion is that at a time the Hereford breed is struggling for relevance in the commercial world, it is a mistake to present the minis, the show cattle, or the Red Angus composites as representative of the breed. In an existential struggle Herefords will only survive if they offer a commercial cow/calf man or cattle feeder an economic advantage, not a lifestyle hobby.
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Post by rosefield on Oct 14, 2020 7:04:54 GMT -6
My opinion is that at a time the Hereford breed is struggling for relevance in the commercial world, it is a mistake to present the minis, the show cattle, or the Red Angus composites as representative of the breed. In an existential struggle Herefords will only survive if they offer a commercial cow/calf man or cattle feeder an economic advantage, not a lifestyle hobby. This is very true, but it seems that so many associations are more interested in appealing to the show crowd because they feel that they are willing to spend more money with the associations. So many associations are not focused on the breed, they are focused more on greed. |
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Post by elkwc on Oct 14, 2020 20:16:57 GMT -6
My opinion is that at a time the Hereford breed is struggling for relevance in the commercial world, it is a mistake to present the minis, the show cattle, or the Red Angus composites as representative of the breed. In an existential struggle Herefords will only survive if they offer a commercial cow/calf man or cattle feeder an economic advantage, not a lifestyle hobby. IMO the AHA is hurting the breed worse than the minis. There are bigger issues than the minis that they haven't addressed. |
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Post by allenw on Oct 15, 2020 8:14:06 GMT -6
I don't think knocking any individual section of the Hereford breed is going to improve our overall position. The mini Herefords fit a niche and are a part of the breed. We all fit in a niche in reality, some niches are just bigger then others.
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Post by Glenn on Oct 15, 2020 8:48:57 GMT -6
Nice conversation on the site for the first time in a while. I sure wouldn't breed anything to a mini but agree with those that say the breed has much bigger issues than the minis. I hate to be so negative all the time (I honestly do) but I think ALL breed associations are just watching the final sands through the hour glass as they fade into oblivion. The globalist movement really has no desire to see or any use for a USA cattle market so the whole beef industry is facing dire times ahead.
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Post by strojanherefords on Oct 16, 2020 23:46:52 GMT -6
If someone wanted to breed Corrientes to Herefords why wouldn't they just hit the sale barn and get cheap Longhorns? The better explanation is that these are old preserved bloodlines, think of heirloom tomatoes. I can tell you the older ranchers remember this size of cattle. It's not for everyone but then again neither is the frame 8, 1900 lb cow due to high feed input. Most University models place the most efficient cow size at (or around) 1100 lbs. Using mini bulls on large frame females can give a breeder the power to correct frame score/weight in a single generation if they so desire. The "cherry on top" is that these cattle can maintain their AHA registrations while doing so. The biggest problem that we have is an ignorance of the beef business. I know people making money with Corrientes and Longhorns. My first cow was a little longhorn that my grandpa gave me when I was a baby. She raised good crossbred beef calves. Let's pencil out our scenarios. In your scenario we can run 26 - 1900 pound cows bred to a mini bull will steers that finish at 1,100 pounds. At the October 13, 2020 Fallon livestock sale, fat cows were selling for $75/cwt. So a 1900 lb. cow would bring $1425. At the same sale young feeder cows could be bought for $60/cwt. Assume we have grass for a 50,000 pound truckload.
| Big Cow mini bull | Range cow Big Bull | | Cow weight | 1,900 Lbs | 950 | | Price CWT | $75.00 | $60.00 | | Price per cow | $1,425 | $600 | | Cows per truckload | 26 | 52 | | Cost per truckload | $37,500 | $30,000 |
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How exactly does it make sense to reduce frame size with a bull? |
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Post by soherf on Oct 19, 2020 4:24:44 GMT -6
As far as starting from the beginning, I think my posts on this forum adequately explain my view of Hereford history. The idea that miniature cattle are the roots of the Hereford breed is creative history. Some of the foundation bulls weighed as much as 4000 lbs. In 1929 my grandfather purchased a straight Gudgell and Simpson bull calf from Mousel for $500. A Bright Stanway grandson. When the bull was 9 years old he was shipped by rail to the Omaha stockyards after wintering on cornstalks. Kill weight was 2700 lbs. The little cattle were selected for starting with Prince Domino. I believe he was about an 1800 lb bull in moderate condition. The chase for small cattle continued until the high plains feedlots began to dominate cattle feeding in the late 60s. The Madison type conference in 1969 was when the AHA recognized reality that there was no place for low growth cattle in the future. The idea newbies and college professors have that the "frame race" was a mistake is an idea propagated by people with no experience of how little value the genetics behind your cattle have. I grew up with those pedigrees. They have no place in the commercial cattle business. If I took one of your miniatures to any salebarn in Missouri, I doubt I would get a bid. You no doubt are very knowledgeable about many facets of marketing, but you need to visit with real livestock market people. You are obviously passionate about your cattle, but don't lie to yourself about their usefulness in the real world. In my original post to the forum I clearly stated that our cattle were not aimed at the same market. If there wasn't a market for them they would have been gone long ago. If I take a calf to the sale barn I've failed as a breeder. |
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Post by soherf on Oct 19, 2020 4:45:38 GMT -6
If someone wanted to breed Corrientes to Herefords why wouldn't they just hit the sale barn and get cheap Longhorns? The better explanation is that these are old preserved bloodlines, think of heirloom tomatoes. I can tell you the older ranchers remember this size of cattle. It's not for everyone but then again neither is the frame 8, 1900 lb cow due to high feed input. Most University models place the most efficient cow size at (or around) 1100 lbs. Using mini bulls on large frame females can give a breeder the power to correct frame score/weight in a single generation if they so desire. The "cherry on top" is that these cattle can maintain their AHA registrations while doing so. The biggest problem that we have is an ignorance of the beef business. I know people making money with Corrientes and Longhorns. My first cow was a little longhorn that my grandpa gave me when I was a baby. She raised good crossbred beef calves. Let's pencil out our scenarios. In your scenario we can run 26 - 1900 pound cows bred to a mini bull will steers that finish at 1,100 pounds. At the October 13, 2020 Fallon livestock sale, fat cows were selling for $75/cwt. So a 1900 lb. cow would bring $1425. At the same sale young feeder cows could be bought for $60/cwt. Assume we have grass for a 50,000 pound truckload.
| Big Cow mini bull | Range cow Big Bull | | Cow weight | 1,900 Lbs | 950 | | Price CWT | $75.00 | $60.00 | | Price per cow | $1,425 | $600 | | Cows per truckload | 26 | 52 | | Cost per truckload | $37,500 | $30,000 |
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How exactly does it make sense to reduce frame size with a bull? Taking a 1900 pound cow down to a 950 pound cow in a single generation is fast and efficient. I haven't seen many 950 pound Hereford cows personally unless the breeders focused on keeping the frame score down around 4. Your excellent truckload data table is a perfect explanation of a size problem that the Hereford cow has grown to inefficient proportions and needs correction to adjust to market demand. This point is in agreement. I'm not saying that utilizing a frame reducing bull is for everyone, that breeder creating the 950 pound cows in your table would be interesting to talk to about how they got their females that size. Each breeder should do what they think fits the demands of their market so they can maximize salability and profits. If we aren't here to exchange ideas and learn from others then why have this forum? The one thing I've taken away from every person that impressed me in my lifetime has been that they continually learn and seek out new knowledge. Not very many breeders could cull their entire female line and go find 950 pound cows. I'm just posing a question and offering a potential solution but you asked and I answered. What would be your method of taking 1900 pound females to the 950 pound examples you provided? |
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Post by timbernt on Oct 19, 2020 6:00:33 GMT -6
The lack of focus on real world markets is the problem I see with the AHA and the breeders focusing on the hobby market. I feel I have failed if I sell at a market and my animals don't top the sale. I do, however, admire your ability to go toe to toe with us old crabs and explain your views.
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Post by soherf on Oct 19, 2020 8:28:36 GMT -6
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Post by strojanherefords on Oct 19, 2020 15:16:58 GMT -6
The biggest problem that we have is an ignorance of the beef business. I know people making money with Corrientes and Longhorns. My first cow was a little longhorn that my grandpa gave me when I was a baby. She raised good crossbred beef calves. Let's pencil out our scenarios. In your scenario we can run 26 - 1900 pound cows bred to a mini bull will steers that finish at 1,100 pounds. At the October 13, 2020 Fallon livestock sale, fat cows were selling for $75/cwt. So a 1900 lb. cow would bring $1425. At the same sale young feeder cows could be bought for $60/cwt. Assume we have grass for a 50,000 pound truckload.
| Big Cow mini bull | Range cow Big Bull | | Cow weight | 1,900 Lbs | 950 | | Price CWT | $75.00 | $60.00 | | Price per cow | $1,425 | $600 | | Cows per truckload | 26 | 52 | | Cost per truckload | $37,500 | $30,000 |
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How exactly does it make sense to reduce frame size with a bull? Taking a 1900 pound cow down to a 950 pound cow in a single generation is fast and efficient. I haven't seen many 950 pound Hereford cows personally unless the breeders focused on keeping the frame score down around 4. Your excellent truckload data table is a perfect explanation of a size problem that the Hereford cow has grown to inefficient proportions and needs correction to adjust to market demand. This point is in agreement. I'm not saying that utilizing a frame reducing bull is for everyone, that breeder creating the 950 pound cows in your table would be interesting to talk to about how they got their females that size. Each breeder should do what they think fits the demands of their market so they can maximize salability and profits. If we aren't here to exchange ideas and learn from others then why have this forum? The one thing I've taken away from every person that impressed me in my lifetime has been that they continually learn and seek out new knowledge. Not very many breeders could cull their entire female line and go find 950 pound cows. I'm just posing a question and offering a potential solution but you asked and I answered. What would be your method of taking 1900 pound females to the 950 pound examples you provided? I would sell the fat cows and buy something cheaper. If you can't do that then you are already finished as a breeder and it is time to quit. If I were a spring calver. Right know, I would sell the fat cows and give Bob Balog (403)-320-1980 a call. I would tell him I wanted lightweight straight Canadian horned Hereford heifers. I would rough them over the winter cheap, turn them out on grass, put breed them to an Angus bull and make money on them whether they breed or I have to finish them out. |
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Post by soherf on Oct 20, 2020 8:28:51 GMT -6
I see your point but I thought we were focusing on Herefords here. Commercial crosses are a regional flavor that changes based on the buyers/feed lot preferences of the region.
Some on this site beat the breed purity drum and as I understand it at one point the Canadian registry allowed breeding up, is this correct?
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