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Post by George on Sept 15, 2015 13:16:00 GMT -6
I received this e-mail from a breeder:
Now I know nothing personally about this - but it comes from a credible source. Assuming it is true, is this how things like this should be handled by our breed association and its magazine?
Yep...sweep it under the rug! SMH!
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tff
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Post by tff on Sept 15, 2015 13:58:50 GMT -6
Don't know a thing about this but maybe it was to protect the innocent. If the junior purchased the steer in good faith as a Hereford, why drag him or her through the mud? Everyone is quick to jump to the conclusion these days that any situation like this is intentional and it was cheating. It could have been an honest mistake on the part of the seller of the steer or it could have been a dishonest seller - I don't know but I'm willing to give the kid the benefit of doubt until proven otherwise because I can't imagine why anyone in a leadership role with the Junior Association would knowingly misrepresent the breed of their steer especially knowing that a DNA test would be conducted.
If it was a registered calf will the sire and dam be DNA tested also?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 14:13:12 GMT -6
I'm out of touch with the show world so I haven't heard anything about this. If it doesn't pass DNA testing it should be stripped of the champion title and proper process/consequences of that followed regardless who it is. It's possible that the sample was contaminated too and they are in the process of re-testing which is why the results were still published? I'm sure there are some processes and appeals to go through. Lot of things to consider before jumping to conclusions. I'm going to shoot you a PM with a question because I'm not even certain which steer is the one in question and don't want to add to the speculation.
The junior very well could just be the victim of a sale gone bad if they didn't breed the animal themselves and bought it in good faith so that could be why there hasn't been anything publically said because its hard to hold a kid personally accountable and publically humiliate them if they bought something that was misrepresented.
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 15, 2015 21:58:17 GMT -6
I'm out of touch with the show world so I haven't heard anything about this. If it doesn't pass DNA testing it should be stripped of the champion title and proper process/consequences of that followed regardless who it is. It's possible that the sample was contaminated too and they are in the process of re-testing which is why the results were still published? I'm sure there are some processes and appeals to go through. Lot of things to consider before jumping to conclusions. I'm going to shoot you a PM with a question because I'm not even certain which steer is the one in question and don't want to add to the speculation.
The junior very well could just be the victim of a sale gone bad if they didn't breed the animal themselves and bought it in good faith so that could be why there hasn't been anything publically said because its hard to hold a kid personally accountable and publically humiliate them if they bought something that was misrepresented.
while i agree with you I do have to say that these days I see more and more cheating giong on everything from the aforementioned issues, money under the table to judges, leased 4-H steers, drugs, ownership issues ect ect ect. this weekend at our state fair 4-h show, not only were 6 heifers kicked out of the show but 4 steers as well and that was just at processing (tampered EID's, bogus regitration papers, ownership issues) furthermore, I know of three individuals that have formal complaints filed against them with the state 4-H because of the games they played during the show trying to win the big 10K check. |
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Post by George on Sept 15, 2015 23:52:50 GMT -6
SPH, I am out of town and I do not have access to my HW...so I cannot confirm anything. As I said, that e-mail came from a credible source who has provided me with accurate information in the past - so I felt confident in posting it. If there is anything inaccurate in it, I will be glad to apologize for doing so.
My concern is not with this kid, the parents, the breeder. There is not enough information available in that e-mail to even speculate what happened. It could be completely nafarious...or it could be some AI tech just pulled the wrong straw out of the tank and didn't double check it.
My problem is with the AHA/HW and their not reporting it. There was a kid who showed the Reserve Champion...shouldn't they be entitled to their full recognition and the banners of the Grand Champion? Shouldn't those kids who placed 2 through 10 in that class be entitled to the 1 through 9 placings and the ribbons and recognition that they deserve?
Or do we just sacrifice all of that ...along with the truth?
I think an accurate account of what happened would be far better in this case....rather than NO account.
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Post by ormanherf on Sept 16, 2015 11:12:31 GMT -6
I have gotten it from two pretty reliable sources that the steer was bought in good faith. It is pretty hard to go back on the person who bought the steer if they are given a set of papers with him. From what i understand that the person that really bred him passed another person with no ties to the breed of as the breeder so they couldnt come back on him.
As near as I understand there is no official champion steer the year at the NJHE. As I also understand there will be more stringent testing and rules added.
It is a really bad deal but you cant go back a month later and make a new champion and reserve. It really frustrates my family as we had a steer in the drive this year and that is probably a once in a life time experience for us. |
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Post by George on Sept 16, 2015 12:54:09 GMT -6
The kid who had the Reserve Champion Steer should be given the Grand Champion Banner and designation...since he/she had the best HEREFORD steer at the show in the judge's eyes.
I can understand there being no Reserve Champion in this case....although that is a frustration ...and unfair...to all those in that championship drive. I would go so far as to contact the judge and if he had a recollection of the other steer he was considering for the Reserve, give that kid the honor and recignition.
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Post by ormanherf on Sept 16, 2015 12:59:19 GMT -6
The kid who had the Reserve Champion Steer should be given the Grand Champion Banner and designation...since he/she had the best HEREFORD steer at the show in the judge's eyes. I can understand there being no Reserve Champion in this case....although that is a frustration ...and unfair...to all those in that championship drive. I would go so far as to contact the judge and if he had a recollection of the other steer he was considering for the Reserve, give that kid the honor and recignition. |
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Post by ormanherf on Sept 16, 2015 13:06:46 GMT -6
George I totally understand your point but I am not sure that the reserve steer would have been the champion if the champion was not there. I am not downgrading the reserve at all but not sure he was actually the second best steer there but he did follow the pattern of the champion the closest.
I am not being a sore loser either because I still don't think my son would've won.
The real point is that this needs to be nipped in the bud as best as possible. I think that the bad guys kinda tend to be a one shot deal in a case like this because the word is out on them & others won't buy a steer from them for fear of humiliation if it not testing
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 13:47:02 GMT -6
The show world is a crazy place, most people are honest people who do things the right way but especially in the club calf markets there are some shady folks and with as much money as some of these people pay for some of these steers there are going to be some bad apples in the group once in awhile. Tom mentioned some of the other issues above, it's crazy what some people will do just to win a show or gain an advantage. I remember one year at the county fair a kid next to me washing his all black steer after a show and this black stream of water starts coming from his steer and all the sudden what looked like a completely black steer had some whites just above the hooves and the kid just looks at me and says "oops!" Same family had rumors floating around the show circuit one year that one of their steers someone had seen them buy at an out of state sale that was red when they bought it but next time they saw it was all black so the rumor was they had dyed the steer black and people were trying to find ways to pull some hairs from it and see what color the roots were. That's just 1 of many crazy things I've seen or heard when I showed as a junior.
I'm just guessing here but they probably did not have the DNA results immediately then probably had to go through a process with the exhibitor with those test results to determine if there was an error or what they knew about the animal. While elevating the next in line to champion sounds easy just vacating the champion probably is the right thing to do. Years from now no one will even remember who the champions were anyways. There was also some drama on the heifer side of the JNHE this year too as a kid that probably would of had supreme champion heifer this year that was DQ'd during the championship drive because their calf got away from them too many times that day. They were informed before the last time in the ring that if the calf got loose again that was it per the rules and it probably was a terrible feeling when the reserve division winner that took that heifer's spot in the drive wound up being named the champion.
Have to realize these are just kids and I don't think that making a story in the Hereford World about what happened really would do any good as the kid has already gone through enough embarrassment and shame with the situation and the association has addressed it, you can't even find that steer's registration online now. It's not like they allowed them to keep the championship, it's just vacated and having to live with that is punishment enough. It's the person who misrepresented the animal they sold who needs to be dealt with and knowing how the show circles work that person is probably going to have a hard time selling show calves again once word gets out about this.
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Post by George on Sept 18, 2015 12:51:24 GMT -6
Have to realize these are just kids and I don't think that making a story in the Hereford World about what happened really would do any good as the kid has already gone through enough embarrassment and shame with the situation and the association has addressed it, you can't even find that steer's registration online now. It's not like they allowed them to keep the championship, it's just vacated and having to live with that is punishment enough. It's the person who misrepresented the animal they sold who needs to be dealt with and knowing how the show circles work that person is probably going to have a hard time selling show calves again once word gets out about this. Travis, you are totally wrong here! It is NEWS and it should be shared with the whole membership - not just information that is spread by gossip among the 80% or so of those that are really involved in the "show world" of registered Herefords. I am finally back home where I can look at my magazine and the online accounts of the show. The "kid" here appears to be a 20 year old junior at a major university, planning to pursue a law degree. So, legally, they are an adult. Our country sends younger people off to foreign countries to fight and die for us. But, even if the "kid" had been a 9 year old, I think a news release, fully explaining the facts of the situation, should have come from the AHA....rather than fueling the "speculation" that is occurring. You and others contributed to that speculation, yourself, in this thread, Travis, while my intention was NOT to indict anyone...but bring to light the poor decision that was made by the AHA/HW staff in the way that they have handled this. I am in no way indicating that there was any bad faith at all on this "kid's" part....and, if there wasn't, they have absolutely nothing to be "embarrassed" about. So, that argument is HOGWASH, as far as I'm concerned. Besides, as I said, 80%+ of those involved in the show world already know and have heard the "facts", along with a healthy portion of innuendo, I suspect. So, a news release containing THE FACTS might have been helpful. And I DO wonder that if it had been my granddaughter, or someone else less "involved" in the NJHA, that the same decision about the (lack of a) news release would have been made. I still feel that there was a HUGE injustice shown to Christopher Shelton, who had the Reserve Champion Steer, in not naming his steer the Grand Champion of the Show. Also to the kids who placed 2nd through 10th in that class who deserve a one-rung higher place and ribbon, IMO. Also, there should be an update coming from the Association about what they are going to do to try to insure that a situation like this doesn't occur again. |
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Post by George on Sept 18, 2015 13:13:23 GMT -6
George I totally understand your point but I am not sure that the reserve steer would have been the champion if the champion was not there. I am not downgrading the reserve at all but not sure he was actually the second best steer there but he did follow the pattern of the champion the closest. I am not being a sore loser either because I still don't think my son would've won. The real point is that this needs to be nipped in the bud as best as possible. I think that the bad guys kinda tend to be a one shot deal in a case like this because the word is out on them & others won't buy a steer from them for fear of humiliation if it not testing I appreciate your input - and it is from someone that was actually at the show. And I hate that you were denied the fair opportunity to compete that a situation like this denies others involved. So, WHO are the "bad guys" in this deal? Care to share? The registration is gone - so I am unable to find out who the breeder for SASY PIPES 401 was....and I cannot find another animal registered with that prefix. |
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Post by George on Sept 18, 2015 13:40:29 GMT -6
Addendum: I guess Sullivans didn't mind leaving this up: pulse.sullivansupply.com/junior-national-hereford-expo-steers/Care to bet how long this page stays up now? Edited to add: It appears that the person listed as the breeder of the steer is a junior as well...and she appears to be much younger than the exhibitor. So, I'm going to guess that any "problem" does not rest on her shoulders. I have gotten it from two pretty reliable sources that the steer was bought in good faith. It is pretty hard to go back on the person who bought the steer if they are given a set of papers with him. From what i understand that the person that really bred him passed another person with no ties to the breed of as the breeder so they couldnt come back on him.
I would really like to know who "him" is.... |
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Post by ormanherf on Sept 20, 2015 15:06:31 GMT -6
I can not tell you the name of said offender. That is why his plan worked well. I have been told that is the only anImal that the breeder of record has ever registered. So I guess that would also make it tough to pin it on said supposed actual breeder. The dumb part of it is that is a fact that they pull hair on champions & reserves to DNA them so you cannot get away with this sort of thing. I guess he was planning on having a one shot deal or the steer not quite being good enough to win
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 20, 2015 17:08:20 GMT -6
wonder if this has made Craig a little nervous about how October 31st will turn out.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 20, 2015 17:16:46 GMT -6
I don't understand, with the price of testing compared to what these cattle sell for, why we only test the winner and runner up? I say test em all. Clean this mess up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 19:33:39 GMT -6
I don't understand, with the price of testing compared to what these cattle sell for, why we only test the winner and runner up? I say test em all. Clean this mess up. I'm sure the ammount of money it would take to DNA test all show cattle is why. There are people here that already think DNA testing their bulls is expensive and a waste of money so can you imagine what people would think if they had to spend the money on testing each animal they are thinking of showing each year? Don't get me wrong I think that is a great idea but I'm sure the time and costs associated with it is why it hasn't already been mandated. |
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Post by Glenn on Sept 20, 2015 19:38:49 GMT -6
You mean they don't mind paying 8-10-15k for a heifer but a $50 test is gonna break them?
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Post by ormanherf on Sept 20, 2015 19:53:43 GMT -6
If I were a betting man I would bet that they will mandate that at least steers shown at jr nationals will have been DNA'ed before they are shown but Unfortunatly that will not eliminate the problem as you could just send in hair from the original steer that the papers came from. You would then be back to the same thing.
I asked if they could pull hair at check in and have back at show time at least on steers since those seem to be the biggest offenders but the answer was not enough time
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Post by ormanherf on Sept 20, 2015 19:54:14 GMT -6
They would still pull hair if they had been tested before the show
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 20:58:11 GMT -6
You mean they don't mind paying 8-10-15k for a heifer but a $50 test is gonna break them? For those folks probably not but not everyone pays rediculous high prices for show cattle and a lot of home raised cattle do show at a lot of these shows. For the ones just in it for the the right reasons paying $50 for a test for an animal that has no chance of contending would probably be a big deal for some, especially with all the other costs you are racking up just to be at the show. Not disagreeing with the idea, it would deter anyone knowing cheating but just looking at it from a big picture and practicality side. If you wanted to do it right you would have to pull hair at check in and there would be no way to test all those samples in such short time. Just getting results back on hair you send in for bulls usually takes several weeks as it is. |
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 20, 2015 21:09:07 GMT -6
You mean they don't mind paying 8-10-15k for a heifer but a $50 test is gonna break them? totally agree with you on this one Glenn. lets do the math.............. steer----3K (I know this is way low for some folks but is the average of the club calf/show steer sales in this part of the state) grain ration---- 1K--2 ton @ $500 (figured at a rough 15 lb average over the 270 days based on a 5 or 6 cwt calf coming in in the fall thru the following July, priced at current cost of High Noon's heifer developer ration, very similar to Fitters Edge from Purina add another roughly $150 a ton if your feeding it) Junior National expenses---rougly $900 per head in our case this year ( between hotel bill, entries, gas, meals, bill at Sullivans and incidentals, we spent $1832 so my daughter could show her 2 steers there, and before you ask, my wife is an accountant so she keep pretty tight track of these things. plus we only had to run three hours to get to Grand Island) so you have a rough total of almost 5K and thats low ball and thats before you figure hay, animal health bills, health papers, expenses from giong to other shows ect ect ect because if your giong to junior nationals you can damn sure bet that heifer or steer is being jackpotted + giong to the county fair and often times the state fair so in the greater spectrum of things what the hell does another $50 bucks to do DNA matter. I don't by the arguement that it costs to much to do when you truly look at what is being spent in the whole scheme of things to go down the road on this level. |
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Post by George on Sept 21, 2015 9:48:19 GMT -6
Not a ton of new information on this thread, but I HAVE received several e-mails regarding this calf. Here is some of what I have learned: The calf was purchased for the exhibitor from a Club Calf Sale held in OK - with registration papers. So, in THIS case, it would have helped if the DNA testing had been done early on, and the problem discovered. There appears to be absolutely no fault to the exhibitor here. They bought the calf in good faith and assumed the papers were correct. Also, this is a good lesson for the ALL of us...to not take things at face value and check everything out before buying these prospect steers - unless they are from an established, reliable source who will stand 100% behind their cattle. As I said before, it appears that the breeder listed on the registration papers is a youngster, who is just old enough to start exhibiting, if she is even that old. However, I have been told that Spencer Shout, who was listed in places online as the Show and Sale Cattle Manager of Deer Valley Farm, Fayetteville, TN (an Angus Breeder) might be someone who could give some insight as to why this calf's DNA test didn't check out. I would like to invite him to come here and respond. www.deervalleyfarm.net/ |
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Post by moon on Sept 21, 2015 12:30:52 GMT -6
This issue of the "NOT Hereford" steer begs the call for transparency, fairness, and due diligence. I agree with many on this thread that AHA should be transparent on this issue which would in my opinion raise credibility in an arena where it is lacking as many here have pointed out. As for fairness, yes, I agree the Reserve should be given the GC as there was a forfeit. DNA either by blood or hair should be mandatory, so if you want to play pay for it then cannot be questioned. Due diligence on part of exhibitor/buyer/parents. Good faith or not like George said you cannot just go on face value, and lesson learned but for not publishing the full story which could have been a teaching moment for some. Maybe I am overly suspicious, but if your buying at a Club Calf sale, the steer selling is registered in a minor's name, and the breeder/seller/parent of the minor is an all breed club calf outfit, then do not purchase unless the seller guarantees the calf to DNA Hereford. If you want to avoid these disasters then like George said test them all. What happened to the GC money and prizes??? Is the GC banner still in the possession of the exhibitor??? Yes, Bookcliff he should be nervous, and I would tend to believe more than not that he and his spouse did a considerable amount of lobbying to deflect any appearance of impropriety. That alone speaks for itself. I agree with George again and others that if this had been a kid down the ladder in Hereford hierarchy that he or she would have not received the same treatment, and based on past experiences the parents of the DQ'ed individuals would have been at the front of the crowd crying foul and wanting to be moved up to the top spot. |
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Post by moon on Sept 21, 2015 12:42:32 GMT -6
One other point. How many times when buying a bull or female do you check the pedigree on the AHA website. The registration paper cannot be taken at face value in cases of club calves of any breed. I have seen it Shorthorns and the composites. Buyer beware on steer registration certificates in situations with this type of seller/breeder of the steer. To me the certificate means nothing more than you have a piece of paper.
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