Speaking of POLITICAL correctness!

[talin]

Have to admit I don't pay any attention to steers seems like a lot of waste of time and effort if you have to "off" them at the end of the year.

However my daughter was in the class of the heifer that kept getting loose I thought that could have been handled better the heifer kept spooking at the display and over and over again they would force the heifer into that corner as she was placed first. Considering the age of the child I really thought moving the line away 5 feet or having the Board members block the display or better assist was in order.

I am probably making enemies by being so blunt but as someone who "benefitted" from the heifers disqualification and my 10 yo daughter we both said at the time it wasn't handled well just my two cents worth

[Deleted]

All the issues and concerns surrounding club calf steers is one reason I'm glad we never got into showing steers and stuck with breeding heifers and the occasional cow/calf or bull when we showed. We usually tried to show something we raised and on occasion might buy from reputable Hereford breeders we knew so we never had a doubt that what we were showing was a purebred Hereford. That is probably the reason behind my comments questioning how practical testing everything at a show may not be because I'm viewing it more from a perspective of why do I need to DNA test an animal that has generations of breeding from our program or a reputable breeder's program. Maybe start with just the steers and go from there if it would be useful to do it for the breeding animals too? The steer crowd seems to be where more of these purity issues come up than with the breeding heifers.

I'd support the idea of DNA testing anything that gets shown, just in order to do so I'm guessing setting up some agreements with some labs that can handle that amount of volume in a short time would have to happen and financially coming up with a plan on what the costs would be and if the association would pick any of that up or would it all be passed down to the exhibitors? You'd probably have to start small at first such as just testing the steers and seeing how that goes initially before expanding it to the breeding animals too. Just at the JHNE alone they had 1441 total head exhibited this year and that is just 1 show. If you want to do it across the board for any sanctioned Hereford show you have shows of all kinds of sizes and locations to factor in and come up with a common protocol to handle collecting and testing those too. Like ormanherf stated if you wanted it to be effective you would have to do it at the show because you can still cheat the system if you trusted that people would send in hair from the actual animal from home if they were knowingly trying to cheat the system.

I do have a personal story somewhat related to this to share which explains why I was a little defensive at first about not throwing the junior and their family under the bus over this steer without knowing all the facts behind it and what role they played in it. One year when I was showing as a junior I had to deal with a registration issue that came up with a breeding heifer that my grandpa had bred that turned out to be the best heifer I ever showed. Sometime in the spring we were notified by the Hereford Association (might have still been the Polled Hereford Association at the time before the merger, I can't remember) that one of the animals in her pedigree they had recently done blood work on and a parentage discrepancy was found - not a breed purity issue just who the exact sire or dam on a particular animal in the pedigree actually was as the DNA did not match what it was registered as. I think it was either a dam that someone had applied to use for ET or maybe a sire for AI, I can't remember what exactly but anyways they put a hold on an already issued registration for that heifer and other animals affected in that "family tree" until they could clear up the parentage thing and our family's hearts just sank because we knew we had a good heifer that was going to be competitive. It wasn't anything that my grandpa had done wrong either as I think the animal in question was one he did not own or breed himself if I remember. It took several weeks of waiting and calling the association to get updates as the show season kept creeping up and fortunately they were able to collect and test the necessary blood work to be able to match up the correct parentage and re-issued corrected papers in time for the show season. Was a very nervous time, that's a lot of hard work getting a heifer ready to show that would have gone to waste if they were unable to collect and match up the blood work. So I do have some first hand experience on what it feels like to have something out of your control happen to you which is why I jumped all over being careful not to point fingers at the exhibitor and their family right away. Now that more information has come out it sounds like they got taken buying that steer in good faith and learned a valuable lesson in the process and I know everyone has their own opinions on how the AHA is/has handled it. In our case what if they had found that discrepancy during the middle or after the show season was over? There probably would have been some people that we showed against unhappy and thinking we had cheated so I am glad it was caught when it was and corrected otherwise we could have been in a tough spot ourselves.

[Deleted]

Sept 21, 2015 14:26:34 GMT -6 talin said:

Have to admit I don't pay any attention to steers seems like a lot of waste of time and effort if you have to "off" them at the end of the year.

However my daughter was in the class of the heifer that kept getting loose I thought that could have been handled better the heifer kept spooking at the display and over and over again they would force the heifer into that corner as she was placed first. Considering the age of the child I really thought moving the line away 5 feet or having the Board members block the display or better assist was in order.

I am probably making enemies by being so blunt but as someone who "benefitted" from the heifers disqualification and my 10 yo daughter we both said at the time it wasn't handled well just my two cents worth

I'm just glad they have the rule in place now because back when I showed they didn't and it was frustrating to deal with if you were the one that was lined up next to someone like that.  It's not only a safety issue but like you said it also disrupts the ring and maybe causes the judge not to get as good of a look at an animal nearby.  You should be glad though that they did enforce the rule and did not make any special accommodations or exceptions to it considering it was a heifer in the championship drive that it affected.

I was one of our state's breed reps on the junior beef breeds council when the first time the subject came up about banning the practice of tubing/forcing liquids down an animal on show day came up.  A lot of other shows and county fairs had already started to adopt such a rule but there was not a universal rule yet that would apply to all sanctioned junior beef breeds shows in the state.  Another breed rep brought the subject and motion up, I got onboard right away with it and voiced my support but unfortunately it got voted down at that meeting as many of the juniors on the council were in the steer show circuit and probably doing it themselves.  The guy that brought up the motion to vote on even went as far as to start point fingers around the room and telling people he was ashamed the vote failed and it says a lot about the character of those who voted it down.  Him and I had a good conversation after that meeting where we both aired out some of the frustrations we had and was nice to know we were not alone with thinking that.  Not too long after that I eventually got fed up with the politics going on with that junior council where the best interests of everyone were not always being considered and gave up my spot as our breed rep for someone else to take as I couldn't sit there and agree with some of the things going on.  Fortunately a year or 2 later they finally passed that rule which is pretty common today I know but at the time it was a huge animal welfare topic that was being addressed and I was ashamed that our state junior beef breed council full of my so called "peers" at the time did not see it that way.  Like I have said before, there are certain things I definitely do not miss about with showing cattle...

[George]

Sept 21, 2015 14:26:34 GMT -6 talin said:

Have to admit I don't pay any attention to steers seems like a lot of waste of time and effort if you have to "off" them at the end of the year.

However my daughter was in the class of the heifer that kept getting loose I thought that could have been handled better the heifer kept spooking at the display and over and over again they would force the heifer into that corner as she was placed first. Considering the age of the child I really thought moving the line away 5 feet or having the Board members block the display or better assist was in order.

I am probably making enemies by being so blunt but as someone who "benefitted" from the heifers disqualification and my 10 yo daughter we both said at the time it wasn't handled well just my two cents worth

So, you're saying that the folks in charge of our breed association junior show displayed no "cattle sense"! Imagine that!

[George]

Sept 21, 2015 12:30:52 GMT -6 moon said:

This issue of the "NOT Hereford" steer begs the call for transparency, fairness, and due diligence. I agree with many on this thread that AHA should be transparent on this issue which would in my opinion raise credibility in an arena where it is lacking as many here have pointed out. As for fairness, yes, I agree the Reserve should be given the GC as there was a forfeit. DNA either by blood or hair should be mandatory, so if you want to play pay for it then cannot be questioned. Due diligence on part of exhibitor/buyer/parents.  Good faith or not like George said you cannot just go on face value, and lesson learned but for not publishing the full story which could have been a teaching moment for some. Maybe I am overly suspicious, but if your buying at a Club Calf sale,  the steer selling is registered in a minor's name, and the breeder/seller/parent of the minor is an all breed club calf outfit, then do not purchase unless the seller guarantees the calf to DNA Hereford. If you want to avoid these disasters then like George said test them all.  What happened to the GC money and prizes???  Is the GC banner still in the possession of the exhibitor???  Yes, Bookcliff he should be nervous,  and I would tend to believe more than not that he and his spouse did a considerable amount of lobbying to deflect any appearance of impropriety. That alone speaks for itself.  I agree with George again and others that if this had been a kid down the ladder in Hereford hierarchy that he or she would have not received the same treatment, and based on past experiences the parents of the DQ'ed individuals would have been at the front of the crowd crying foul and wanting to be moved up to the top spot.      

Good questions! I had not even considered the prize money involved.

Here is my concern. We have new management/leadership at the AHA and (to my knowledge) this is the first crisis/controversy that has come up under that leadership. Considering the complete blunder in the manner in which this has been handled makes me wonder that when another genetic disorder comes up, how is something like that going to be handled? Is it going to be handled with full disclosure to the membership - or is it going to depend on WHOSE OX IS GETTING GORED that affects the way something like that will be handled?

I can only hope that Jack Ward recognizes that this situation was handled poorly and he takes action to correct it - OR there are enough members of the Board of Directors whose moral compasses aren't sprung that they will encourage that the RIGHT corrective action be taken.

[oldduffer]

George & Others: Help me understand this: "We have new management/leadership at the AHA.....". NO, we have a new secretary, executive Vice President, or whatever Mr. Ward's official title is. His job [as I understand it] is not to "run" the Association. His job is NOT to recognize "that this situation was handled poorly and take action to correct it". His job is to carry out the directions of the board of directors that are elected by the membership. This is an opportunity to measure the leadership, integrity, and moral compass of our board of directors. In my opinion the AHA does not have a spectacular track record in the areas of communication, transparency, and integrity. This is an opportunity for our board of directors to step up and make the right call. It seems like decision making in the AHA [as in many other groups and businesses] is made based on "follow the money"!
Please do not call Mr. Ward out on this. PLEASE call, text, email, or write EVERY Board member and State President and express your concern on this issue AND ask them to provide a detailed report on what action will be taken and what the plan is going forward. Request a roll call vote on the actions and a report on how each director voted.
THIS IS OUR ASSOCIATION................LET'S TAKE IT BACK!

"Extremism to protect liberty is no vice."

[oldduffer]

Sept 20, 2015 21:09:07 GMT -6 bookcliff said:

Sept 20, 2015 19:38:49 GMT -6 Glenn said:

You mean they don't mind paying 8-10-15k for a heifer but a $50 test is gonna break them?

totally agree with you on this one Glenn.

lets do the math..............

steer----3K (I know this is way low for some folks but is the average of the club calf/show steer sales in this part of the state)

grain ration---- 1K--2 ton @ $500 (figured at a rough 15 lb average over the 270 days based on a 5 or 6 cwt calf coming in in the fall thru the following July, priced at current cost of High Noon's heifer developer ration, very similar to Fitters Edge from Purina add another roughly $150 a ton if your feeding it)

Junior National expenses---rougly $900 per head in our case this year ( between hotel bill, entries, gas, meals, bill at Sullivans and incidentals, we spent $1832 so my daughter could show her 2 steers there, and before you ask, my wife is an accountant so she keep pretty tight track of these things. plus we only had to run three hours to get to Grand Island)

so you have a rough total of almost 5K and thats low ball

and thats before you figure hay, animal health bills, health papers, expenses from giong to other shows ect ect ect because if your giong to junior nationals you can damn sure bet that heifer or steer is being jackpotted + giong to the county fair and often times the state fair

so in the greater spectrum of things what the hell does another $50 bucks to do DNA matter. I don't by the arguement that it costs to much to do when you truly look at what is being spent in the whole scheme of things to go down the road on this level.

[oldduffer]

Glenn & Bookclif - Congratulations! You hit the nail on the head. The show ring is a significant investment [cost] so do the DNA test. Our family did it with another species and it was one of the very best investments we made in our son. Didn't show a lot of winners........but won in other ways.





"Extremism to protect liberty is no vice."

[strojanherefords]

What do we think of Ms. Bacon writing that she never considered that registration certificates might not be accurate? (Pg. 22, December 2015 Hereford World). It is conspicuous that she does not apologize to the those who did not get the chance for the limelight that she enjoyed.

[picketwire]

Havent read the december issue yet, will have to take a look when it shows up.

I do wonder, though, why she should have to apologize to those who missed out on the 'limelight'. I think those apologies should be coming from the steer show committee, the judge, the jr national committee, and the AHA for not protecting the integrity of that show. Or am I off base?


Well maybe expecting an apology from the judge is too much, but i stand firm on the rest. And maybe they have as well, i dont know.

[btlrupert]

Wouldn't blame the judge but those in charge of the show should at least apologize. To me at a minimum it would teach the youngsters that when things are wrong you step up to the plate and do what you can to make it right! Hopefully lessons were learned! Also goes for lying about birth dates and all the other shortcuts that "steer jocks" pull. Has no more to do with the real world than trying to catch a lightening bolt in a jar! Steer shows in my humble opinion should be hanging on a hook in a cooler! Then you can pick a REAL winner!

[moon]

Yes, T.J., based upon what I was told from people who were in the room during a Junior board meeting at K.C. during Annual Meeting time, if she did what the people in attendance related they witnessed, and then what other people in attendance told me what occurred at the special meeting of the Junior Board, including the person in question accompanied by her father, advisors, AHA staff, and AHA board members on Sunday, November 1, 2015, and the evidence which was presented to her, as well as what I specifically overheard being discussed between AHA personnel, Junior Board members, and Adult advisors to the Junior board in hallway outside the meeting room on Sunday after that meeting, then you are off base.  Also, if you will note she is no longer Chairman/Chairperson of the Junior National Hereford Association, which was an involuntary removal voted on by the Junior Board according to what was related to me by a AHA board member in attendance.  

[moon]

Rupert and T.J. since each of you may not be aware of specific facts which myself and others learned at K.C., then I would suggest you are condemning the wrong people. Based upon, in large part, those facts and the responses she and her parents offered, her father was not elected to the AHA Board, and were critical factors why most delegates with whom I spoke with did not cast a vote for him.  

[moon]

One additional note, I would submit no " lessons " were learned as some suggest from this incident. Rather, people who want to cheat and intend to cheat will only become more sophisticated with their technology to cheat. Cynical??? Yes, I am. One very learned, wise, and an upmost high integrity delegate told me they " Just got caught being themselves ".  If your looking for a lesson it may be that some will be scared enough to not step over the line, but doubtful, since according to the evidence presented and the people in attendance during the meetings I referred to above, she and her parents did not when it would been the simplest thing to do.   

[picketwire]

Philip, thanks for the additional information. I had not heard anything since before the annual meeting. Based upon what has since gone on, i have no problem stepping up and apologizing for the tone of my previous response. Details since my last update have obviously painted a different picture and many kudos to all of those who have now done the right thing. And again my most sincere apologies for jumping the gun.

[btlrupert]

I tip my hat as well, did not know that. I do maintain steer shows should be judged exclusively on swinging carcasses. No way that I know for the "blow n go hair stylist" to cheat when you pull the hide off. Never been a big show proponent outside of 4-H and FFA projects for my children at the county and state level. They led a few champions and have a stack of ribbons but the life lessons they learned and friends they made I pray were far more valuable. My wife
and I sponsor the Hereford scholarship here in SC but it is awarded based on a written test that tries to capture the child's knowledge of the industry. Just our philosophy

[George]

From the HW:

AHA DNA show rule

If an American Hereford Association (AHA) registered heifer, bull or steer does not match
the DNA sample taken at an AHA sponsored event, then the exhibitor would have
their membership revoked and will not be eligible to participate in any AHA sponsored
shows, events and sales for one year after the first violation. The membership ban
would run from one year from the event date where the situation occurred.

On the second violation, the exhibitor would have their AHA membership banned
for life.

If the DNA sample taken was inconclusive as to the Hereford parentage (artificial
insemination [AI] versus bull bred, or a mix up on AI semen used for breeding or embryo
transfer) then the exhibitor will have 30 days to submit a new sample. HW

A question? Are all the major steer shows "AHA sponsored events"? If so, the use of these "Hereford look-a-like" sires has to be significantly impacted.

To me, it seems to make sense to get ANY HEREFORD animal that is planned to be exhibited at a show DNA tested early on now. And be prepared to have them retested, should anyone have any question that the animal on paper isn't the same as the one in the ring.

[George]

Dec 12, 2015 13:16:59 GMT -6 moon said:

Yes, T.J., based upon what I was told from people who were in the room during a Junior board meeting at K.C. during Annual Meeting time, if she did what the people in attendance related they witnessed, and then what other people in attendance told me what occurred at the special meeting of the Junior Board, including the person in question accompanied by her father, advisors, AHA staff, and AHA board members on Sunday, November 1, 2015, and the evidence which was presented to her, as well as what I specifically overheard being discussed between AHA personnel, Junior Board members, and Adult advisors to the Junior board in hallway outside the meeting room on Sunday after that meeting, then you are off base.  Also, if you will note she is no longer Chairman/Chairperson of the Junior National Hereford Association, which was an involuntary removal voted on by the Junior Board according to what was related to me by a AHA board member in attendance.  

It sounds like there were some "interesting" things going on, regarding this, at the meeting! "Involuntary removal"? She is still listed as the Chairman of the NJHA on the hereford.org website? I guess that was another story that wasn't "newsworthy" enough to make the magazine or newsletter.

But KUDOS to the AHA for taking a strong stand against this DNA/parentage problem in the future!

[rvf1986]

I to feel if your are going to show a registered animal at a AHA event The animal owner should have been required to DNA test the animal for the show at 38.50. If someone protests at the show and they should be required to pay for the cost of the test unless the animal fails!. Then that cost should go back to the animal owner!

[George]

For reference!