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Post by jayh on Mar 20, 2015 10:03:08 GMT -6
#11 would be dead within a year in SW Oklahoma. Glenn , if you were to buy semen on one of those bulls and breed your cows ( angus of course ) do you think you would have same type of calf ? I think the calf would adapt to your climate being born there. I think mother nature has a bigger role than we think and we are left to believe we are in control. Guess what I am saying is the type would change with environment. Example being the Aleutian Islands
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Post by jayh on Mar 20, 2015 10:08:54 GMT -6
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Post by George on Mar 20, 2015 11:07:13 GMT -6
Jay, Glenn and I had a conversation yesterday regarding this thread. While he and I know that we don't agree with the other 100% about this frame and condition argument, we do agree that some degree of "moderation" in all traits is probably the best place to be. Extremes in any direction will cause trouble. You can put so much growth, size, and milk in cattle that most of the cows will become too thin to rebreed on time. On the other hand, we probably have all seen cows in herds that were noticeably fatter than the rest - and many times those are the cows that are the least fertile and give the least milk. They were able to obtain that condition because their output was so low, not because they were genetically easier keepers.
The frame score basis of judgement is a generalization. A person can find poor doing frame 4 cattle and easy keeping frame 7 cattle.
Environment plays an important part in the equation as well. The bottom line is to best match genetics with the environment and balance what the feedlot operator desires with what will work best in your own pasture.
Edited to add: And I'm not sure the Aleutian type is necessarily what we'd end up with in Texas. I suspect a far more appropriate example of natural selection would be the Texas Longhorn - and I don't know about you, but I would rather have a steak from an Angus or Hereford that has had a degree of grain finish than a steak from a longhorn steer. The whole point of cattle breeding is "man's intervention" - and the judgement of what can be done to "improve" the product that is produced, in an effort to increase profit, and increased profit does not necessarily mean increased production. Moderation!
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lily
Fresh Calf
Posts: 53
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Post by lily on Mar 20, 2015 11:15:29 GMT -6
Jay, Glenn and I had a conversation yesterday regarding this thread. While he and I know that we don't agree with the other 100% about this frame and condition argument, we do agree that some degree of "moderation" in all traits is probably the best place to be. Extremes in any direction will cause trouble. You can put so much growth, size, and milk in cattle that most of the cows will become too thin to rebreed on time. On the other hand, we probably have all seen cows in herds that were noticeably fatter than the rest - and many times those are the cows that are the least fertile and give the least milk. They were able to obtain that condition because their output was so low, not because they were genetically easier keepers. The frame score basis of judgement is a generalization. A person can find poor doing frame 4 cattle and easy keeping frame 7 cattle. Environment plays an important part in the equation as well. The bottom line is to best match genetics with the environment and balance what the feedlot operator desires with what will work best in your own pasture. Now there is great common sense, I like that very much.
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Post by jayh on Mar 20, 2015 11:34:05 GMT -6
Jay, Glenn and I had a conversation yesterday regarding this thread. While he and I know that we don't agree with the other 100% about this frame and condition argument, we do agree that some degree of "moderation" in all traits is probably the best place to be. Extremes in any direction will cause trouble. You can put so much growth, size, and milk in cattle that most of the cows will become too thin to rebreed on time. On the other hand, we probably have all seen cows in herds that were noticeably fatter than the rest - and many times those are the cows that are the least fertile and give the least milk. They were able to obtain that condition because their output was so low, not because they were genetically easier keepers. The frame score basis of judgement is a generalization. A person can find poor doing frame 4 cattle and easy keeping frame 7 cattle. Environment plays an important part in the equation as well. The bottom line is to best match genetics with the environment and balance what the feedlot operator desires with what will work best in your own pasture. Edited to add: And I'm not sure the Aleutian type is necessarily what we'd end up with in Texas. I suspect a far more appropriate example of natural selection would be the Texas Longhorn - and I don't know about you, but I would rather have a steak from an Angus or Hereford that has had a degree of grain finish than a steak from a longhorn steer. The whole point of cattle breeding is "man's intervention" - and the judgement of what can be done to "improve" the product that is produced, in an effort to increase profit, and increased profit does not necessarily mean increased production. Moderation! Yes I agree with you. That's what I am saying. While we go to sales and pic out the fat bulls what do we need to be breeding? our frame 4-7 cattle can be different from Texas to Missouri. I would bet that your cattle would hair up if they wound up here in the winter. While mine would slick off quicker if taken down there. I really think environment has a lot to do with it. As for the Aleutian cattle I agree about them and texas. Way different environments. But I bet the steaks from those Aleutian would be ok. Long horns have there place as well as frame 4 cattle regardless of what we all think. If man wasn't involved in changing them to look a certain way we might be surprised at what we would end up with. And I have had easy keepers who put it all on their back and none to the calf, They don't last here they get a one way ticket. LOL I think your Bailout bull is the real deal from pics of progeny I think you done good for a polled bull. Did you weigh him ?
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Post by shumakerherefords on Mar 20, 2015 11:42:11 GMT -6
Years ago there was some news about a herd of Herefords on some island in Alaska that had been abandoned and gone feral. I remember reading about the cattle charging the helicopters used in the roundup. IIRC some small packer bought them to market as 'natural beef'. Anyhow this paper biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/01/26/014415is a genetic analysis of cattle from Chirikof Island. Siberian cattle (Yakut) were introduced while Russia claimed Alaska and a variety of other breeds were introduced over the years and finally Herefords about 40 years ago. Unfortunately the paper does not have any photos.
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Post by timbernt on Mar 20, 2015 12:16:02 GMT -6
One of my brothers is an exploration geologist and worked on that island many years ago. He said the Herefords were very wild and ran like elk, but if you happened to surprise them they were very aggressive. He said they carried 44 mags to protect themselves from the Herefords just like they carried on the mainland to protect themselves from the grizzly bears.
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Post by larso on Mar 20, 2015 14:18:49 GMT -6
MODERATION, probably the least understood concept in cattle breeding. EPD's or EVB's has tended to influence breeders in the opposite direction when originally I don't think that was intended.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 20, 2015 14:46:46 GMT -6
The thing that makes it tough even though 75% of us have common sense is that moderation and "middle of the road" and "average" don't sell. Superlatives sell.
Best. Greatest. Fastest. Biggest. Most. Thickest. ........... you get the idea.......
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Post by hoekland on Mar 20, 2015 14:57:59 GMT -6
Glenn, after your earlier comment... when I was a boy
About 30 minutes from me when I was still at the old place was an old man that farmed about 400 pony type angus cows right in the mountain, very typical sour Cape Fynbos, very steep, very rocky, hardly any grass, he gathered those cattle only a few times a year, mainly to market some fats or calves, dipped them about twice a year and only saw them when he put the bulls in otherwise. Those little frame 3 coffee tables were always fat as ticks and climbed mountains like goats. Then his children convinced him he should make them bigger, so he bought a few bulls in, they died, then he started to AI some of his cows to big bulls, they fared better than the bought in bulls, but conception rates dropped, mortality went up, calving problems crept in, in less than 15 years he didn't have a single angus cow left, then he tried a variety of other breeds, none with any real success, eventually went back to Afrikaner cattle, they survived and reproduced but got so wild that he just gave up on them and some still roamed free in the mountain about ten years ago, haven't seen any since then.
Long story short, doing ability is worth a lot more than growth under tough conditions, the dock you take for breeding your type is usually offset by the lesser inputs required, and cattle needing longer legs to be able to walk and climb is bullshit.
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Angus Herd
Mar 20, 2015 15:23:36 GMT -6
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Post by jayh on Mar 20, 2015 15:23:36 GMT -6
Glenn, after your earlier comment... when I was a boy About 30 minutes from me when I was still at the old place was an old man that farmed about 400 pony type angus cows right in the mountain, very typical sour Cape Fynbos, very steep, very rocky, hardly any grass, he gathered those cattle only a few times a year, mainly to market some fats or calves, dipped them about twice a year and only saw them when he put the bulls in otherwise. Those little frame 3 coffee tables were always fat as ticks and climbed mountains like goats. Then his children convinced him he should make them bigger, so he bought a few bulls in, they died, then he started to AI some of his cows to big bulls, they fared better than the bought in bulls, but conception rates dropped, mortality went up, calving problems crept in, in less than 15 years he didn't have a single angus cow left, then he tried a variety of other breeds, none with any real success, eventually went back to Afrikaner cattle, they survived and reproduced but got so wild that he just gave up on them and some still roamed free in the mountain about ten years ago, haven't seen any since then. Long story short, doing ability is worth a lot more than growth under tough conditions, the dock you take for breeding your type is usually offset by the lesser inputs required, and cattle needing longer legs to be able to walk and climb is bullshit. Kind of a sad story. I agree with the legs. Around here they say they need longer legs to get around in the mud. If they wouldn't pen them all up around a shed and calve in spring instead of winter they would be ok. But they tell me they want bigger calves but refuse to cross breed. So I do my thing they do theirs.
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Angus Herd
Mar 20, 2015 15:29:27 GMT -6
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Post by jayh on Mar 20, 2015 15:29:27 GMT -6
The thing that makes it tough even though 75% of us have common sense is that moderation and "middle of the road" and "average" don't sell. Superlatives sell. Best. Greatest. Fastest. Biggest. Most. Thickest. ........... you get the idea....... Yep hard to sell a cow like you pictured vs a nice fat cow at same sale. Good ole boys know they just dont always do what they say.
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Post by elkwc on Mar 20, 2015 15:31:27 GMT -6
Glenn, after your earlier comment... when I was a boy About 30 minutes from me when I was still at the old place was an old man that farmed about 400 pony type angus cows right in the mountain, very typical sour Cape Fynbos, very steep, very rocky, hardly any grass, he gathered those cattle only a few times a year, mainly to market some fats or calves, dipped them about twice a year and only saw them when he put the bulls in otherwise. Those little frame 3 coffee tables were always fat as ticks and climbed mountains like goats. Then his children convinced him he should make them bigger, so he bought a few bulls in, they died, then he started to AI some of his cows to big bulls, they fared better than the bought in bulls, but conception rates dropped, mortality went up, calving problems crept in, in less than 15 years he didn't have a single angus cow left, then he tried a variety of other breeds, none with any real success, eventually went back to Afrikaner cattle, they survived and reproduced but got so wild that he just gave up on them and some still roamed free in the mountain about ten years ago, haven't seen any since then. Long story short, doing ability is worth a lot more than growth under tough conditions, the dock you take for breeding your type is usually offset by the lesser inputs required, and cattle needing longer legs to be able to walk and climb is bullshit. All I will say I saw some try the shorter, squattier cattle in the rough foothills of NM and they would basically fall apart and get thin. The frame 5 cattle would do well and could cover enough country to survive. The short, squatty cattle would graze the country close to the windmill but the grass that was hard to get too grew and was never harvested by a cows mouth. I saw this happen more than once. An outsider would buy a ranch and try to change the type of cattle and either he would give up and leave or he would learn and start running what had survived in that country for a hundred years. A short, lighter muscled cow can cover the rough country but not a short, squatty toad.
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Post by elkwc on Mar 20, 2015 15:42:40 GMT -6
Cut one older(15-16 y/o) cow off last weekend along with a bred 2 y/o that was a little flighty. They sold Tuesday. Didn't put a level on the older cow so got a rough guess on frame size. She was between 5.5 and a 6.0 the best I could tell. She had fell apart in Jan so had moved her to wheat for about 6 weeks. She was thin and getting on the weak side when we moved her. She had put on quite a bit of weight and gained strength but still not fat by any means. Preg checked her and she was open and we had moved everything off wheat the first of March. Weaned a big steer off her last August. She weighed 1290 and close to what I think is the ideal cow we are shooting for. Had a good udder and had held up well until this winter. A cow that survived several years of drought and produced a calf every year until this year. Wish I had took a pic of her.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 20, 2015 15:51:47 GMT -6
]Yep hard to sell a cow like you pictured vs a nice fat cow at same sale. Good ole boys know they just dont always do what they say. Ain't nothing wrong with the cow I put a pic up of. After yesterday I figure she's worth about 6 figures. If any idiot would pay more for that fat, sterile headed/necked look POS black cow than they would for that 25Y cow, then they have a special kind of stupid that I can't help.
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Angus Herd
Mar 20, 2015 16:13:58 GMT -6
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Post by jayh on Mar 20, 2015 16:13:58 GMT -6
]Yep hard to sell a cow like you pictured vs a nice fat cow at same sale. Good ole boys know they just dont always do what they say. Ain't nothing wrong with the cow I put a pic up of. After yesterday I figure she's worth about 6 figures. If any idiot would pay more for that fat, sterile headed/necked look POS black cow than they would for that 25Y cow, then they have a special kind of stupid that I can't help. Glenn I guess I phrased that wrong. Sorry if I upset you. I know she works where your at. And I also know that (toad) would not work there. But she is visually appealing not to say yours isn't but they are of different types. As for the six figures I guess so If someone is willing to pay that then i would unload her. You have better than her i have seen pics of cows and bulls. Sorry i upset you.
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Post by elkwc on Mar 20, 2015 16:18:56 GMT -6
]Yep hard to sell a cow like you pictured vs a nice fat cow at same sale. Good ole boys know they just dont always do what they say. Ain't nothing wrong with the cow I put a pic up of. After yesterday I figure she's worth about 6 figures. If any idiot would pay more for that fat, sterile headed/necked look POS black cow than they would for that 25Y cow, then they have a special kind of stupid that I can't help. Very well stated Glenn. I would take your cow anyday over the black cow in the pic.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 20, 2015 18:24:59 GMT -6
That should read '5 figures' not 6. Lol. Either fat fingers or extreme bullishness.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Mar 20, 2015 18:43:40 GMT -6
That should read '5 figures' not 6. Lol. Either fat fingers or extreme bullishness. Probably the subconscious is working there.
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Post by strojanherefords on Mar 28, 2015 22:12:46 GMT -6
Glenn, after your earlier comment... when I was a boy About 30 minutes from me when I was still at the old place was an old man that farmed about 400 pony type angus cows right in the mountain, very typical sour Cape Fynbos, very steep, very rocky, hardly any grass, he gathered those cattle only a few times a year, mainly to market some fats or calves, dipped them about twice a year and only saw them when he put the bulls in otherwise. Those little frame 3 coffee tables were always fat as ticks and climbed mountains like goats. Then his children convinced him he should make them bigger, so he bought a few bulls in, they died, then he started to AI some of his cows to big bulls, they fared better than the bought in bulls, but conception rates dropped, mortality went up, calving problems crept in, in less than 15 years he didn't have a single angus cow left, then he tried a variety of other breeds, none with any real success, eventually went back to Afrikaner cattle, they survived and reproduced but got so wild that he just gave up on them and some still roamed free in the mountain about ten years ago, haven't seen any since then. Long story short, doing ability is worth a lot more than growth under tough conditions, the dock you take for breeding your type is usually offset by the lesser inputs required, and cattle needing longer legs to be able to walk and climb is bullshit. I do not believe that doing ability and feedlot performance are incompatible provided that the selection for growth is made under tough conditions. The key is to always select cattle which are heavy for their frame size and to pay attention to cow families.
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Post by elkwc on Mar 31, 2015 4:44:24 GMT -6
I viewed a grandson of one of the sires for the farm in the original post Sunday. Lots of muscle but not much frame. He sold near the bottom yesterday. Only a couple out of 79 bulls sold lower. His EPD's were above average. I was curious about how he would sell after I saw him and his phenotype. Seems as though there are others in the commercial world who want more than a frame 4 cow or bull.
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Post by oldduffer on Mar 31, 2015 7:41:42 GMT -6
So going back to The original herfs weren't they over 3000 pounds and more like an oxen? I got that from from something I read I think I may be mistaken. As for paying the bills most of that is marketing and ANGUS has done an outstanding job while we suck. Range Bull: When I said "paying the bills" I was thinking of the "real" cattle business - The commercial man. Those bills are paid [in very simplified terms] by pounds on the scale and the dollars they command, based on their feedlot performance. In many, many purebred operations paying the bills can be compared to "The Emperor's New Clothes".
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Post by jayh on Apr 1, 2015 8:22:20 GMT -6
So going back to The original herfs weren't they over 3000 pounds and more like an oxen? I got that from from something I read I think I may be mistaken. As for paying the bills most of that is marketing and ANGUS has done an outstanding job while we suck. Range Bull: When I said "paying the bills" I was thinking of the "real" cattle business - The commercial man. Those bills are paid [in very simplified terms] by pounds on the scale and the dollars they command, based on their feedlot performance. In many, many purebred operations paying the bills can be compared to "The Emperor's New Clothes". Agreed. But there is more than just your feedlot when it comes to the cattle business. Grass fed comes in here as well as ( "The Emperor's New Clothes" ) Registered people and then you have the purebred people who are pure with no papers. If corn goes high again your feedlot guys will start looking at something that will put on weight with nothing more than sage brush and sand and their are very few people looking for those easy fleshing easy doing types because your chasing performance. Cattle were made to eat grass not grain. That's why they founder on grain. We have pushed cattle to be where they are and what they are. We have turned them into grain cattle trying to feed the world. Agin this is just my opinion and I don't raise cattle for a living I fix cars and trucks and I am very good at it. I have cows and think they should be able to survive on grass. And in saying that if you start looking at cattle that make it on grass you see short legged high volume cows that (Work) . I am not sying this is the answer I am not saying I am right I am just stating what my research has shown me. So you guys can keep your giraffes and draft horse's I will take my toads and raise what I want. Just like most of you will drive a chevy or ford or dodge its preference . And just a FYI grass fed is a market all on its own. grasslandbeef.com/our-farms7.95 is a lot to pay for 2 6 oz patties don't you think? Over 7,000 dollars for a 900 lb carcass? Again its marketing. They must be doing well because they are building a huge building near me.
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Post by jayh on Apr 1, 2015 8:28:34 GMT -6
I viewed a grandson of one of the sires for the farm in the original post Sunday. Lots of muscle but not much frame. He sold near the bottom yesterday. Only a couple out of 79 bulls sold lower. His EPD's were above average. I was curious about how he would sell after I saw him and his phenotype. Seems as though there are others in the commercial world who want more than a frame 4 cow or bull. Yep again its all about preference. I will drive my Chevrolets and someone else can drive the dodge and pay me to fix it.
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Post by elkwc on Apr 1, 2015 15:42:30 GMT -6
"And in saying that if you start looking at cattle that make it on grass you see short legged high volume cows that (Work) . " Short legged, heavy muscled cattle don't work in most of the country I've been around. I can remember in the 60's that the few breeders who had the short toads ran them in their milk cow traps close to the house and in the sandy pastures. The cattle they ran in the rough pastures were frame 5. The short, heavy muscled cattle usually can't make it. Lighter muscled small cattle like Longhorns, corrientes and sorrier quality Angus and Herefords can but not the short legged toads. And this has held true in the TX Panhandle, NE NM, SW KS, SE CO, OK Panhandle and western OK. Most of these cows never receive much if any grain. Some cake or liquid feed in the winter and that is it. So I would say they are basically grass fed. And yearss of experience has proven what will survive and WORK and what won't.
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