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Post by dougthorson on Sept 22, 2014 20:25:43 GMT -6
I have done it and will continue to do it but not because I need my name in the sale report. When I get done with my homework there just aren't a whole lot of bulls to choose from even before I give them the eye test. I have never been to a sale where I have had 10 bulls marked when the auctioneer started, most of the time it is only 2 or 3. When I get to that point I want to buy one of them because I don't want to do that much homework on another sale. My job is to identify quality and if I missed on even 50% I would quit.
The other part of that is there aren't 10 Hereford breeders I would buy a bull from. Either the bloodlines, program or environment doesn't fit what I do. I am sure there are a bunch of breeders that could fit but I am a 1 man outfit and don't have time to go all over "just to look" When I show up at your door you have made the list of breeders I would buy from and then my eyes will tell me if you stay on the list.
I have toured a few AI collection places though. I have never been to any breeders ranch with that much poor quality, mostly in black. I am convinced a bunch of esp black bulls are there because they didn't work out but the guy who bought them can't afford to just walk away so they are trying to get money back out of them without having to use them.
Come to think of it that way and there are very few bulls alive that I would AI to before my the ones I own.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 22:29:42 GMT -6
Some good thoughts on here and some are just plain . . . well I'd rather not say in the interest of being nice. As far as I am concerned when your homework is done (and boy do I mean done) then it does not matter what you spend if you are confident that it is what your herd needs. I have always tried to maintain the thought process that it is a very fine line between budget conscious and just plain being a tight ass. I have been both. Now as far as me paying in excess of 10K. Split it between bulls and females. I have only seen two cows ever that if I had the money I would have paid over 10k for, one brought $6000 and I was the biggest dumbass in the world for not owning her and the other brought 100,000K and those were in my angus days. Saw lots of black bulls that should not have brought the dollars they did but a few that were well worth the money over 10K. Same on the Hereford side, lots of bulls both sides that were worth the money and some that were not. Have been close myself several times to 10K but not over (there is my close line between budget and tightass!). I will say this, in my experience when I have done my homework, there is a direct correlation between higher price paid and quality of those daughters as producing cows. As far as Hereford females over 10K it is very similar to the angus side except I have not seen a Hereford female (with my own eyes) that if I had an unlimited budget I would have paid 100K for but there have been many I would have paid 10K for or a little more. it would be interesting to hear what herefords (male or female) you would have paid that for... anyone else too. not that i would have paid that much but one of the nicer bulls i've seen in awhile the guy used him a year maybe two then sold him to a rancher... maybe it was grazing district can't remember. but he didn't have epd's so it would have been a waste. anyhow, woulda tried him here. might be fun to go try and see that bull this fall. femalewise... bought her but then let my concious get the better of me.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 22, 2014 22:33:33 GMT -6
I find all the swagger of some of the posts amusing......
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Post by kph on Sept 22, 2014 22:56:48 GMT -6
Here is how I rationalized it when I did it, (and believe me I was rationalizing like crazy!) If you buy an exeptional bull that improves your calf crop across the board like he's supposed to , say he bumps 3 bull calves from the mid range group to the high price group because of lowering birth wt. or better performance or whatever and that adds at least 500 to the value, that's 1500.00. If he moves 3 calves from the 1500.00 steer pen to the 2500.00 (or higher)low end bull group that's another 3000. Same with heifer calves if you can sell 5 daughters for even 300 apiece more by being a little better that's another 1500. He's now added a very conservative 6000.00 value to the calf crop just by being a better bull. Now if his steer calves dress up the whole group it might get you another bid or two when the steers go to town too. Multiply this by 5 years of use and add in his daughters hopefully improving the cow herd overall and possibly more customers coming to you looking specifically for his offspring and it's not too hard to pencil out spending 10K or more when you find what you're looking for. Especially if you consider an average bull selling for 5000, then you are only laying out an extra 5000 for a bull that could potentially return many times that in his usefull life. And that's just for a small time operation like mine with no semen sales or high priced bull sale.
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Post by George on Sept 22, 2014 23:08:32 GMT -6
Doug, if you are so good at choosing exceptional herd sires (50% +), there are several semen companies that would love to hire you for procurement.
In Fink's presentation, he referred to a person who did the job of procuring young bulls for the stud- and the man said he picked one good one out of 10. That was where I got that number from when I made that post.
I think I've done better than that too - but I've stacked the deck by buying proven bulls.
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Post by George on Sept 22, 2014 23:26:45 GMT -6
It would be interesting to hear what herefords (male or female) you would have paid that for... anyone else too. I went to the Harland Dispersion prepared to pay up to $10000 for CJH L1 Dominette 717 (and calf) but when I saw the calf at side(Cowboy) I was pretty sure I didn't have enough money in my budget. I got one bid in before she went over the 10 grand.
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Post by hrndherf on Sept 22, 2014 23:59:09 GMT -6
Some good thoughts on here and some are just plain . . . well I'd rather not say in the interest of being nice. As far as I am concerned when your homework is done (and boy do I mean done) then it does not matter what you spend if you are confident that it is what your herd needs. I have always tried to maintain the thought process that it is a very fine line between budget conscious and just plain being a tight ass. I have been both. Now as far as me paying in excess of 10K. Split it between bulls and females. I have only seen two cows ever that if I had the money I would have paid over 10k for, one brought $6000 and I was the biggest dumbass in the world for not owning her and the other brought 100,000K and those were in my angus days. Saw lots of black bulls that should not have brought the dollars they did but a few that were well worth the money over 10K. Same on the Hereford side, lots of bulls both sides that were worth the money and some that were not. Have been close myself several times to 10K but not over (there is my close line between budget and tightass!). I will say this, in my experience when I have done my homework, there is a direct correlation between higher price paid and quality of those daughters as producing cows. As far as Hereford females over 10K it is very similar to the angus side except I have not seen a Hereford female (with my own eyes) that if I had an unlimited budget I would have paid 100K for but there have been many I would have paid 10K for or a little more. it would be interesting to hear what herefords (male or female) you would have paid that for... anyone else too. not that i would have paid that much but one of the nicer bulls i've seen in awhile the guy used him a year maybe two then sold him to a rancher... maybe it was grazing district can't remember. but he didn't have epd's so it would have been a waste. anyhow, woulda tried him here. might be fun to go try and see that bull this fall. femalewise... bought her but then let my concious get the better of me.
Hmmm..... A proven cow?
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lily
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Post by lily on Sept 23, 2014 0:22:33 GMT -6
Bought one bull and a 1/2 share in a bull over 10K in the last couple of years, in the ranch's history there was a few bulls that my father in law bought above the 10K. Never bought a female yet above 4000 and don't ever foresee doing it. Some of the best bulls in recent years did not cost me a fortune, 5000, 4200, 4500, 5600 and 7500. Overall every bull we purchase is a piece of the puzzle and sometime's you have to dig a bit deeper to get a hold of what you need or think you need. In today's times when the commercial man is running us purebred breeders up to 7, 8, 10 and 12 thousand dollars I think we have to be prepared to pay a bit extra, we are buying herd bulls not just clean up bulls, don't have enough grass for clean up anything they have to perform.
Don't agree with some of you posters on the thinking of better AI the best cows to the elite AI bulls to get your next herdbull. If a bull is any good he don't need all the best cows to perform, I like to use a bull on a cross section of cows, that will show the real strength of a breeding bull and it won't raise him to a false top on the back of the best cows. I also like to bring in the odd outcross genetics both in Herd bulls and Semen and after all hybred vigor is the only thing free in the livestock business and I don't mind to take a bit advantage of that.
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Post by hrndherf on Sept 23, 2014 0:59:57 GMT -6
I have done it and will continue to do it but not because I need my name in the sale report. When I get done with my homework there just aren't a whole lot of bulls to choose from even before I give them the eye test. I have never been to a sale where I have had 10 bulls marked when the auctioneer started, most of the time it is only 2 or 3. When I get to that point I want to buy one of them because I don't want to do that much homework on another sale. My job is to identify quality and if I missed on even 50% I would quit. The other part of that is there aren't 10 Hereford breeders I would buy a bull from. Either the bloodlines, program or environment doesn't fit what I do. I am sure there are a bunch of breeders that could fit but I am a 1 man outfit and don't have time to go all over "just to look" When I show up at your door you have made the list of breeders I would buy from and then my eyes will tell me if you stay on the list. I have toured a few AI collection places though. I have never been to any breeders ranch with that much poor quality, mostly in black. I am convinced a bunch of esp black bulls are there because they didn't work out but the guy who bought them can't afford to just walk away so they are trying to get money back out of them without having to use them. Come to think of it that way and there are very few bulls alive that I would AI to before my the ones I own. I agree on most of your reasons. My homework usually starts when calves are registered out of certain bloodlines and I am able to research them. By sale time, it is usually 1 bull I go for. I guess I have been close to 10,000 and been well below 5000, but that was the bull I went to buy that day. I have seen some good bulls roaming the pastures of some other breeders I would AI to. I have yet filled the herd bull pasture with bulls that are all superior to other breeder's bulls, with the similar genetics.
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Post by hrndherf on Sept 23, 2014 1:43:21 GMT -6
[/quote]it would be interesting to hear what herefords (male or female) you would have paid that for... anyone else too. not that i would have paid that much [/quote]
Male-one I saw a while ago in a herd bull pasture. He would be around 65 months old now, but if he was still sound and looked as good as when I saw him last, I would pay that.
Female-None
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Post by picketwire on Sept 23, 2014 2:14:34 GMT -6
Some good thoughts on here and some are just plain . . . well I'd rather not say in the interest of being nice. As far as I am concerned when your homework is done (and boy do I mean done) then it does not matter what you spend if you are confident that it is what your herd needs. I have always tried to maintain the thought process that it is a very fine line between budget conscious and just plain being a tight ass. I have been both. Now as far as me paying in excess of 10K. Split it between bulls and females. I have only seen two cows ever that if I had the money I would have paid over 10k for, one brought $6000 and I was the biggest dumbass in the world for not owning her and the other brought 100,000K and those were in my angus days. Saw lots of black bulls that should not have brought the dollars they did but a few that were well worth the money over 10K. Same on the Hereford side, lots of bulls both sides that were worth the money and some that were not. Have been close myself several times to 10K but not over (there is my close line between budget and tightass!). I will say this, in my experience when I have done my homework, there is a direct correlation between higher price paid and quality of those daughters as producing cows. As far as Hereford females over 10K it is very similar to the angus side except I have not seen a Hereford female (with my own eyes) that if I had an unlimited budget I would have paid 100K for but there have been many I would have paid 10K for or a little more.
it would be interesting to hear what herefords (male or female) you would have paid that for... anyone else too. not that i would have paid that much but one of the nicer bulls i've seen in awhile the guy used him a year maybe two then sold him to a rancher... maybe it was grazing district can't remember. but he didn't have epd's so it would have been a waste. anyhow, woulda tried him here. might be fun to go try and see that bull this fall. femalewise... bought her but then let my concious get the better of me. Gets real easy to imagine what cows or bulls I would have bought had I been in possession of the UNLIMITED BUDGET(i.e. last sentence paragraph above) but that becomes an exercise in either fantasy, futility or stupidity rather than a lesson that might actually teach one something. The important lessons are the ones learned when you actually spent the hard earned dollars whether big budget or not and were satisfied with the results. Naming names is an exercise in futility but they would include bulls and females of both Hereford and angus and includes each and every bloodline across the spectrum, horned and polled. Some would be ridiculed now for containing titan or prime time blood and even at one time in the angus deal a little cpny for those who might recognize some angus blood. From Texas to Alberta and California to Minnesota. Not all went to purebred outfits either and it is a shame that some would automatically assume that. Best limi bull I ever saw went to a commercial outfit and was hit by lightning two weeks later. Best charolais bull I ever saw didn't get used by purebred guys much cause he 'wadn't purdy enuf'. Have seen the wide spectrum and will probably continue to see things happen that don't make much sense. Watched bulls sell for over 100k that I wouldn't have given 3500 for and then also watched bulls sell that should have been a 10k bull but the gavel dropped at 2500. The sitz cow(100k) above was never a reality for me depsite how good she was and the Elmose cow even better IMO but nobody liked her pedigree I guess. Gets easy for some to miss quality when looking for the 'right' pedigree, myself included at times.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 23, 2014 2:27:30 GMT -6
I find all the swagger of some of the posts amusing...... sometimes the swagger of honesty is amusing and sometimes it is just the plain damn truth. A question I would like to pose to all after seeing ace's comments on one of his possible high dollar bulls becomes this. Who out there is confident enough that after doing all the necessary homework on everything to be considered with the exception of EPD's would go and take a chance on a bull without seeing them? When the quality is obviously there, does it matter more if he makes a positive impact in ones herd when lots of people wanted him but you are the one that owns/paid for him. I better get to work earning those dollars to pay for what I determine my herd needs whether he costs 3500, 35000 or 135,000(not very likely by the way for me at least). But if I had it and he is what I need, then why the hell not, its still a free market for the time being. Oh and one other thought while I am on a role of either stupidity, futility or sleeplessness, lack of a proper budget or deep enough pocket after the homework is done is one of the, if not the worst, single trait selection messes that there is.
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Post by erherf on Sept 23, 2014 5:27:05 GMT -6
I find all the swagger of some of the posts amusing...... sometimes the swagger of honesty is amusing and sometimes it is just the plain damn truth. A question I would like to pose to all after seeing ace's comments on one of his possible high dollar bulls becomes this. Who out there is confident enough that after doing all the necessary homework on everything to be considered with the exception of EPD's would go and take a chance on a bull without seeing them? When the quality is obviously there, does it matter more if he makes a positive impact in ones herd when lots of people wanted him but you are the one that owns/paid for him. I better get to work earning those dollars to pay for what I determine my herd needs whether he costs 3500, 35000 or 135,000(not very likely by the way for me at least). But if I had it and he is what I need, then why the hell not, its still a free market for the time being. Oh and one other thought while I am on a role of either stupidity, futility or sleeplessness, lack of a proper budget or deep enough pocket after the homework is done is one of the, if not the worst, single trait selection messes that there is. I have on occasion bought herd bulls without seeing them. You can call me naïve or stupid but really is not that big of deal if you trust who you are doing business with. To tell you the truth some of the truly great female producing bulls are not that handsome. Like, Doug not that many breeders that are willing to do business with just because want to maintain fairly pure Line 1 base.(right or wrong)
I really prefer buying herd bulls private treaty. I can take a day or two decide instead of 30 seconds.
I partnered on a bull that cost more than 10k this year but personally haven't paid over that for any other herd bulls. Haven't sold any over 10k either.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 23, 2014 6:09:46 GMT -6
I really prefer buying herd bulls private treaty. I can take a day or two decide instead of 30 seconds. I would sure agree with this statement. I won't say NEVER but I probably won't be buying any auction bulls anytime soon. Especially in today's overheated market.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 23, 2014 6:18:57 GMT -6
A couple of clarifications. When I said AI, I meant to PROVEN bulls in the bloodline I work in, not "hot bulls" or "popular bulls" or "promoted bulls". As an example a bull that I would like to AI some of my cows to (both top end and bottom end) is Ken and TJ's 065X bull. I have seen the bull in person 3 times, I have seen his progeny in Ken's herd and my own. He is a known quantity to me. And AI appears my only choice as I don't have deep enough pockets to buy him. I know, I tried. I feel much more confident using him than any yearling bull that Coopers or Holdens sells next March. Now eventually a bull sold next March may prove better, but any breeder thinking he is so smart and does so much homework he can pick the bull out is naive. He can increase his odds but it's still a roll of the dice.
Secondly a more sound approach in my mind is buying "used herd bulls". You can look at the bloodlines and female lines and get comfortable with that then go see the bull and his calves and probably producing daughters by the time the original owner wants to sell him. And by then he is usually 4-5 years old and you can have an idea of his soundness. And finally a 5 year old can cover a hell of a lot more cows than a yearling coming off a hot feed situation.
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Post by George on Sept 23, 2014 6:47:51 GMT -6
Don't agree with some of you posters on the thinking of better AI the best cows to the elite AI bulls to get your next herdbull. If a bull is any good he don't need all the best cows to perform, I like to use a bull on a cross section of cows, that will show the real strength of a breeding bull and it won't raise him to a false top on the back of the best cows. I also like to bring in the odd outcross genetics both in Herd bulls and Semen and after all hybred vigor is the only thing free in the livestock business and I don't mind to take a bit advantage of that. If you are going to AI some of your cows in the quest for a "in" herd sire, why in the world would you opt to breed anything but your very BEST (match) cows (in your opinion) in that quest- unless you were AIing them all? It seems obvious to me that every breeder should have cows in their herd that he/she would prefer to have their next herd bull come from. Choosing your "BEST" cows doesn't mean that the CHOSEN bull wouldn't work across the whole herd. In fact, common sense should direct a breeder to CHOOSE an AI bull that would work across the herd, since that next herd bull working across the herd will carry 50% of his blood. Now, if you are choosing a cross section of the herd to AI that CHOSEN AI bull to, in addition to your best "herd bull producing" cows, as a check to see if you indeed made the right choice, I wouldn't disagree with that.
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Post by dougthorson on Sept 23, 2014 7:01:52 GMT -6
I thought baseball was the only thing you could keep your job after failing 75% of the time. I guess a bull pimp can keep it after failing 90% But that proves one of my points, there are a he// of a lot of bulls that semen is being pushed from that are not very good.
847 is the bull that showed me how a bull pays. I have sold 31 bulls out of him at nearly $900 over sale average. Since I have complimented him with bulls that are close to his quality my sale average has doubled and 75% of my customers over the last 2 sales are new.
It may be arrogant, but to me that says I am doing something right.
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Post by George on Sept 23, 2014 7:03:57 GMT -6
A couple of clarifications. When I said AI, I meant to PROVEN bulls in the bloodline I work in, not "hot bulls" or "popular bulls" or "promoted bulls". As an example a bull that I would like to AI some of my cows to (both top end and bottom end) is Ken and TJ's 065X bull. I have seen the bull in person 3 times, I have seen his progeny in Ken's herd and my own. He is a known quantity to me. And AI appears my only choice as I don't have deep enough pockets to buy him. I know, I tried. I feel much more confident using him than any yearling bull that Coopers or Holdens sells next March. Now eventually a bull sold next March may prove better, but any breeder thinking he is so smart and does so much homework he can pick the bull out is naive. He can increase his odds but it's still a roll of the dice. Secondly a more sound approach in my mind is buying "used herd bulls". You can look at the bloodlines and female lines and get comfortable with that then go see the bull and his calves and probably producing daughters by the time the original owner wants to sell him. And by then he is usually 4-5 years old and you can have an idea of his soundness. And finally a 5 year old can cover a hell of a lot more cows than a yearling coming off a hot feed situation. EXACTLY! I couldn't agree more! Again, for MOST breeders, rather than pay that $10,000+ for an unproven yearling bull in those sales next year, they would be better off AI'ing asmuch of their herd as they could to a proven bull like 065X or Harland.
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Post by George on Sept 23, 2014 7:10:13 GMT -6
I thought baseball was the only thing you could keep your job after failing 75% of the time. I guess a bull pimp can keep it after failing 90% But that proves one of my points, there are a he// of a lot of bulls that semen is being pushed from that are not very good.847 is the bull that showed me how a bull pays. I have sold 31 bulls out of him at nearly $900 over sale average. Since I have complimented him with bulls that are close to his quality my sale average has doubled and 75% of my customers over the last 2 sales are new. It may be arrogant, but to me that says I am doing something right. And THAT is why Fink was advocating using PROVEN bulls, not the latest/greatest or most of the ones with the full page ads in the HW. Edited to add: I think 847 was a good bull, but given the choice to use him or AI to his sire, I'd choose to AI to 99496 in a heartbeat.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 23, 2014 11:33:08 GMT -6
847 is the bull that showed me how a bull pays. I have sold 31 bulls out of him at nearly $900 over sale average. Since I have complimented him with bulls that are close to his quality my sale average has doubled and 75% of my customers over the last 2 sales are new. It may be arrogant, but to me that says I am doing something right. All it really says is that we are in a bull market (pardon the pun) in the cattle market right now. Most breeders including commercial breeders are selling their calves/yearlings/bulls females for significantly more money now than 2 years ago. I had a wise man tell me one time "Don't confuse a bull market with brains"
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Post by dougthorson on Sept 23, 2014 13:19:16 GMT -6
It has been stated here before but maybe not this plain.
The whole beef industry starts with those of us who choose to raise bulls. We are the NUBER ONE factor in the profitability of not just our ranch but the industry as a whole.
Boyd Dvorak gave me some great advice when I was starting. I was talking about getting started without going broke. He said "if you can't walk into your bankers office buck naked then don't get started. You will go broke or you won't be doing any of your customers any good"
2 years later I told my wife that the banker was going to make some changes in our operation because I was so broke I expected him to call in the note. He didn't and I made no changes and did the same thing again the next year. That time he asked me if I really wanted the note.
Collectively we have more impact on the beef industry than high intrest or expensive corn or high fuel or any other thing I can think of. The industry would continue to exist in any of those circumstances but if we all kept our worst females and used our worst bulls the industry would cease to exist.
When I start worrying about my bottom line over a $10,000 purchase that will affect that much is when I start thinking about going commercial. I have bet on the come for so long it is just part of who I am.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 23, 2014 13:36:52 GMT -6
sometimes the swagger of honesty is amusing and sometimes it is just the plain damn truth. A question I would like to pose to all after seeing ace's comments on one of his possible high dollar bulls becomes this. Who out there is confident enough that after doing all the necessary homework on everything to be considered with the exception of EPD's would go and take a chance on a bull without seeing them? When the quality is obviously there, does it matter more if he makes a positive impact in ones herd when lots of people wanted him but you are the one that owns/paid for him. I better get to work earning those dollars to pay for what I determine my herd needs whether he costs 3500, 35000 or 135,000(not very likely by the way for me at least). But if I had it and he is what I need, then why the hell not, its still a free market for the time being. Oh and one other thought while I am on a role of either stupidity, futility or sleeplessness, lack of a proper budget or deep enough pocket after the homework is done is one of the, if not the worst, single trait selection messes that there is. I have on occasion bought herd bulls without seeing them. You can call me naïve or stupid but really is not that big of deal if you trust who you are doing business with. To tell you the truth some of the truly great female producing bulls are not that handsome. Like, Doug not that many breeders that are willing to do business with just because want to maintain fairly pure Line 1 base.(right or wrong)
I really prefer buying herd bulls private treaty. I can take a day or two decide instead of 30 seconds.
I partnered on a bull that cost more than 10k this year but personally haven't paid over that for any other herd bulls. Haven't sold any over 10k either.
[/quote Yeah, my sleeplessness bit me right in the backside. I meant buy a bull without epd's. sight unseen is a good point as well and you make a very good point about knowing who it is you are dealing with. A very good post and a good point.
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Post by George on Sept 23, 2014 13:43:58 GMT -6
It has been stated here before but maybe not this plain. The whole beef industry starts with those of us who choose to raise bulls. We are the NUBER ONE factor in the profitability of not just our ranch but the industry as a whole. Boyd Dvorak gave me some great advice when I was starting. I was talking about getting started without going broke. He said "if you can't walk into your bankers office buck naked then don't get started. You will go broke or you won't be doing any of your customers any good" 2 years later I told my wife that the banker was going to make some changes in our operation because I was so broke I expected him to call in the note. He didn't and I made no changes and did the same thing again the next year. That time he asked me if I really wanted the note. Collectively we have more impact on the beef industry than high intrest or expensive corn or high fuel or any other thing I can think of. The industry would continue to exist in any of those circumstances but if we all kept our worst females and used our worst bulls the industry would cease to exist. When I start worrying about my bottom line over a $10,000 purchase that will affect that much is when I start thinking about going commercial. I have bet on the come for so long it is just part of who I am. It's good to know that you (think you) have the weight of the entire beef industry resting on your shoulders, Doug! And here I thought President Obama had problems! Tell me, Doug, given your "recent success", have you had a contractor out to your house to do some remodeling? You know - to widen all the doors - so you can get your big head and inflated ego through them?
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Post by dougthorson on Sept 23, 2014 18:43:47 GMT -6
You are out of line George.
I could say more but I choose not to.
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Post by timbernt on Sept 23, 2014 19:38:38 GMT -6
One time; right at $10k by the time he got here. If he had worked as well as expected he would have been cheap. Unfortunately, it didn't work out very well. It led to buying a brother who didn't breed who led to a son who is probably the best bull I have used; he cost nothing. So, was the first bull too high? No, just part of the cost of searching for the right genetics for our environment. My philosophy has always been to invest in genetics (semen) that can be stored until proven rather than a pig in a poke. It would be more fun shop the sale circuit. I agree that too many "breeders" base genetic selection on the adrenaline rush of sale day. I guess that is their business, but it looks to me they are chasing their tail.
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