|
|
Post by col1domino on Nov 16, 2010 9:07:04 GMT -6
I thought this article was a pretty good read. The debate over the right sized cow is the most over discussed topic there is nowadays. I don't think the debate will ever end either, too many variables in environment and management to ever have a one size fits all cow everyone will agree on.. Here's the article. hereford.org/static/files/0810_CowSize.pdf |
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 16, 2010 10:27:56 GMT -6
I'm just a beginner - a novice - a real neophyte in this cattle business, but I want a maximum 1200 lb. cow that will wean an 800+ lb. calf at 205 days every 365 days and that calf, if a heifer, will go on to only make a maximum 1200 lb. cow. Oh...and they HAVE to have EPDs that are in the top 5% in every category as well, since I'm such a great believer in EPDs!   George |
|
|
|
Post by Glenn on Nov 16, 2010 10:32:23 GMT -6
Funny.
|
|
|
|
Post by hoekland on Nov 16, 2010 10:57:30 GMT -6
I'm just a beginner - a novice - a real neophyte in this cattle business, but I want a maximum 1200 lb. cow that will wean an 800+ lb. calf at 205 days every 365 days and that calf, if a heifer, will go on to only make a maximum 1200 lb. cow. Oh...and they HAVE to have EPDs that are in the top 5% in every category as well, since I'm such a great believer in EPDs! George I can't help but wonder what he would think if he can only see what my cattle run on at the moment. |
|
|
|
Post by col1domino on Nov 16, 2010 13:45:39 GMT -6
When I have a heifer come in open I always try to figure out why. Seems like heifers with a lot of muscling tend to come in open a higher percentage of time. Heifers that lack femininity basically don't happen around here and if they do they don't get a chance. I've had some that seemed to lack fleshing ability and some that were that way because maybe they got sick as a calf or something. In the past I've also had cows and heifers come in open that I put the blame on them being too easy fleshing and fat as a pig.
No Hereford forum would be complete without a little Angus bashing right? I can't help but admire the Olde (spelling?) Angus cattle but I'm not sure they are as perfect as they may seem. I have heard they have bad fertility problems. I would like to get the kind of thickness and fleshing ability these cattle look like they have into my Herefords but I want my cows to milk and stay fertile. While I'm talking about these Olde cattle I want to make a prediction.
I think the Angus breed is heading for another genetic wreck and they don't even seem to know it. I see a major shift in their breeding to Traveler genetics. That Traveler bull is the kiss of death at high altitude. Not only that but he's the bull they believe to be behind what they are calling "feedlot brisket". I had a man order around 200 straws of semen from me the last two years that was having bad problems with this. He lives in South Dakota and feeds his steers out in Nebraska. He said as soon as he had all the money he possibly could wrapped into them and they were ready to go to slaughter they'd fall over dead with this. He was loosing a large percentage and wanted to solve his problem right now. What do you think is going to happen when feedlots around the country start having a high number of these calves?
|
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 16, 2010 19:18:39 GMT -6
Ideally I would like my cows to weigh between 1200 lbs, thin - coming out of winter, and 1400 lbs in good shape. I've got some that are probably slightly larger than that, but I've been working on getting the 1600+ pounders out of the herd. My largest framed cow raised this soggy heifer this year and I'm just a little reluctant to keep her, as I think she's going to exceed my ideal in weight.  I think my biggest challenge is achieving that balance of getting them thick and muscled up as much as I can and still have the fertility they MUST have to breed back regularly and milk good, particularly when they are in less than ideal conditions like these North Central/West Texas native pastures can be. No doubt these Hammer daughters are a step in the right direction when it comes to capacity and fleshing ability. But the jury is still out on milking ability and fertility. George |
|
|
|
Post by Glenn on Nov 16, 2010 21:42:16 GMT -6
No Hereford forum would be complete without a little Angus bashing right? I can't help but admire the Olde (spelling?) Angus cattle but I'm not sure they are as perfect as they may seem. I have heard they have bad fertility problems. I would like to get the kind of thickness and fleshing ability these cattle look like they have into my Herefords but I want my cows to milk and stay fertile. I know from experience the "ohlde" type or at least 6807 which the Ohlde cattle are bred to can tend toward fertility problems. I had a pretty good herd of commercial Angus that I had bred pretty tight to 6807. They were very pleasing cattle to the eye (mine at least) but I did struggle with fertility in the females. I was continually having more opens than I thought was right. It took me a few years to realize that maybe it was the breeding and not my management. I still get Ohlde catalogs and stuff and still just love to look at that type of female, but am learning that maybe a little less fleshing and a little more angularity in the females is better. It is still a struggle against an ideal I had built up in my head. |
|
|
|
Post by rockmillsfarm on Nov 16, 2010 22:01:31 GMT -6
If I got rid of all the +1400 pounders, all I'd have left is a bunch of calves running around with no momma's to raise them  ;D |
|
|
|
Post by hoekland on Nov 17, 2010 0:55:30 GMT -6
It is very rare to find a bull that adds both milk and muscle, especially in a moderate package, but they are out there. I was lucky enough to have found one that I still have semen on and three sons in use.
I believe the fertility issues only start when you have one trait out of balance with the rest and as long as you keep selecting for the complete package, keep SC up, make sure that female genitalia is visually well developed you shouldn't run into serious issues without having warning signs well in advance.
|
|
|
|
Post by col1domino on Nov 17, 2010 9:11:08 GMT -6
It is very rare to find a bull that adds both milk and muscle, especially in a moderate package, but they are out there. The 286 son I have,5603, will do all that. His milk epd keeps dropping though because his daughters haven't ratioed very well on their calves. That's because of the reduced growth I'm getting from the smaller frame size his daughters throw and not the milk. It just gets reflected onto his milk. |
|
|
|
Post by hoekland on Nov 17, 2010 10:20:46 GMT -6
In theory it should correct over time....
I've found that the smaller framed (within reason) cows don't wean lighter calves the calves are usually just fatter and better fleshed. I'm sure the big difference will come to the fore if you compare the rangier calves with the dumpier ones in a feedlot situation though.
Having said that two friends and I have done just that with a growth test at my place and my much smaller bulls ratioed right at 100 with the best gainer being one of mine, my worst doer in the test ratioed 95, so I'm very well pleased with that. The bulls were young and finished the test at about 13 months old, I'm sure the taller ones would have passed mine by a mile if they were older.
|
|
;D