Registration option

[rosefield]

We have read not only in this group but in other social media as well about the dissatisfaction of breeders with the AHA.

With that in mind, would there be interest from Hereford breeders for a new opportunity to register Hereford animals.

[Glenn]

I hope this topic gets some attention. I am not endorsing or opposing it personally, but I do think it is a discussion worth having. Hopefully we can get more details from the OP.

[kclark]

Jan 9, 2020 9:04:27 GMT -6 rosefield said:

We have read not only in this group but in other social media as well about the dissatisfaction of breeders with the AHA.

With that in mind, would there be interest from Hereford breeders for a new opportunity to register Hereford animals.

Yes.

[1780]

Watch this space. I believe there are measures well advanced to do just this already. For me I would be interested to hear from readers of Hereford Talk how they feel such a register should be partitioned. Its no good just doing "more of the same" because all you will get is "more of the same". For my part I would like to see an international register and unsurprising to all it would need to have at the top of the tree animals that can prove their breed integrity and this could well include currently unregistered animals that prove their integrity.  But under that, breeders who have got innocently sucked in to this genetic corruption, and that is the majority, they should not be left to their own resources to die with the traditional breed societies who spend their lives trying to make bad things look better.  We need a way to make a good things look better!  These breeders deserve and need a place to register their cattle AND breed back if that is their desire while their cattle remain registered. Lets face it, if you are breeding back to a pure Hereford, firstly you know the animal is more pure than where you started and secondly you will know the gentic profile of the breed is moving back to from where it came.  I have never heard anybody say that the original Herefords were not a  superior beast, a little small perhaps but lets not forget that Herefords in the 1840's approached 2 ton.  So if you can breed smaller with focus and determination you can breed bigger with focus and determination. Lets make the Hereford great again. 

[rosefield]

Jan 11, 2020 19:12:13 GMT -6 1780 said:

Watch this space. I believe there are measures well advanced to do just this already. For me I would be interested to hear from readers of Hereford Talk how they feel such a register should be partitioned. Its no good just doing "more of the same" because all you will get is "more of the same". For my part I would like to see an international register and unsurprising to all it would need to have at the top of the tree animals that can prove their breed integrity and this could well include currently unregistered animals that prove their integrity.  But under that, breeders who have got innocently sucked in to this genetic corruption, and that is the majority, they should not be left to their own resources to die with the traditional breed societies who spend their lives trying to make bad things look better.  We need a way to make a good things look better!  These breeders deserve and need a place to register their cattle AND breed back if that is their desire while their cattle remain registered. Lets face it, if you are breeding back to a pure Hereford, firstly you know the animal is more pure than where you started and secondly you will know the gentic profile of the breed is moving back to from where it came.  I have never heard anybody say that the original Herefords were not a  superior beast, a little small perhaps but lets not forget that Herefords in the 1840's approached 2 ton.  So if you can breed smaller with focus and determination you can breed bigger with focus and determination. Lets make the Hereford great again. 

There are many breeders that have quit registering their animal because of the direction that a breed association tries to take.  Alienating breeders does the breed no good.

And with the comment highlighted above, bringing back into the fold genetics that have been lost could be considered.  It would be up to you as breeders how such a program would be done.  Some association require a certain number of registered generations before animals are allowed into the regular herdbook.  Would they be in an appendix registry to start with?  Would, through knowledge of their ancestry registered an unregistered qualify them?  These are questions and concerns that must be thought out.

Maybe to qualify animals doing a BBR for the breed may need to be considered.

With our registries, we have membership in the US, Canada and the UK.  Our registration certificates have been accepted Internationally.  And we have had breeders with other breed come to us for help in exporting semen and embryos because their own registry won't help them because they have their own genetics they want to promote.

Our main purpose in starting this post is so that you as breeders could express your thoughts, concerns and ideas to see just how much interest their may be.

[strojanherefords]

Rosefield could you please introduce yourself in the new members thread.

[saltamontes5]

We have all probably expected at one time or another for the AHA to be more than just a repository of animal ancestry. However, I think it would be best if the registry honestly just stuck to that. So that it could possibly maintain some sort of independence and defend the integrity of the breed. The promotion side of things could be a different organization. Of course now in the day of DNA verification the registry organization should be able to DNA verify each animal before certificate is issued. It is an added expense but a way of maintaining independence and integrity in the face of a very strong promotional organization looking for a quick buck. I don't really need for somebody to tell me the statistical probability that a large animal will produce large offspring. This is something I can assume with great confidence based on observation I and countless generations of breeders recognized for time in memoriam. I would be in favor of such an organization with this sort of independence. One that did not add on all the extra fees for maintaining a registered herd that are apparently there to support the promotional side of the organization could operate fairly cheaply I would think this would be a benefitial I would think.

[rosefield]

Our philosophy is that YOU as breeders are doing all of the work and that the fees you pay should be affordable.

Our registration fees are as follows:

$10     Birth to 240 days of age

$15     241 days to 365 days of age

$20     Over 12 months to 18 months of age

$25     Over 18 months to 24 months of age

$35     Over 24 months of age

We do offer new members ($25 annually) for animals that have not been registered can do so for the lowest registration fee of $10 per animal.

For those that are interested in EPD's we have whole herd reporting which is $10 per breeding age female (16 months) annually.  We break the cost down into the spring calving (January 1 - June 30) and the fall calving (July 1 - Dec 31)

With Whole Herd Reporting you can register any offspring of the cows for 1/2 price ($5 each)

For those that have semen available on bulls we offer a bull listing and the fee for that is a one time cost of $10 per bull.

[timbernt]

Do these fees include the DNA lab fees and a geneticist to sort the results?

[rosefield]

Jan 12, 2020 8:55:20 GMT -6 timbernt said:

Do these fees include the DNA lab fees and a geneticist to sort the results?

No, Genomic testing is additional.  We have a contract with GeneSeek for our genomic testing.

[timbernt]

What access to the AHA and CHA database do you have?

[George]

Questions?

(1.)Do you currently have the ability to register cattle as Herefords if they are descended from a dam and a sire both registered with the AHA?

(2.) Assuming the answer to (1) is "yes", I have semen on some Hereford bulls that would require semen certs for their calves to be registered with the AHA. Could I register those calves in your registry without having to purchase certs?

[rosefield]

Jan 12, 2020 11:33:38 GMT -6 timbernt said:

What access to the AHA and CHA database do you have?

We have general access to the information that we need.  Their databases go back several generations with information and we use that.

[rosefield]

Jan 12, 2020 13:21:35 GMT -6 George said:

Questions?

(1.)Do you currently have the ability to register cattle as Herefords if they are descended from a cow and a bull both registered with the AHA?

(2.) Assuming the answer to (1) is "yes", I have semen on some Hereford bulls that would require semen certs for their calves to be registered with the AHA. Could I register those calves in your registry without having to purchase certs?

To us certificates can hinder the growth of a breed.  We do not require certificates in order for animals to be registered.

Yes, since we have general access to the AHA database and so we would be able to look up the pedigree information.

Our pedigrees are 4 generation and we offer several methods for identifying and animal.  Tattoo's, ear tag numbers and colors, state metal (bangs tag) numbers, RFID tag numbers, other markings such as brands and pictures.  We also document on the papers if an animal has been parentage verified and if they have been tested for any recessives that information is on there as well.

This information has been helpful in several instances where an animal has lost tags, etc.

[Glenn]

Could you post a sample certificate of an animal from one of the breeds you are currently working with?

[rosefield]

Here is a pedigree on a Heritage Shorthorn bull:

Pedigree of RIDGEWOOD TRACY

Here is one on a Lineback bull:

Pedigree of Lineback bull

Here is a pedigree on a bull that was born in the US but is owned by UMOTEST in France:

PINE-TREE HANS-ET

[rockmillsherefords]

So ya'll complain about the AHA because it's too expensive and they've been sloppy maintaining breed purity, but then ya'll interested in an outfit that will register an animal from an eartag number and a photo to save a few bucks...OK??!

[saltamontes5]

Jan 12, 2020 21:18:14 GMT -6 rockmillsherefords said:

So ya'll complain about the AHA because it's too expensive and they've been sloppy maintaining breed purity, but then ya'll interested in an outfit that will register an animal from an eartag number and a photo to save a few bucks...OK??!

Not necessarily.  I think everyone is just asking questions to gain an understanding of what else is out there.  Unless our pedigree history comes with I don't think I would be leaving regardless, but it would be nice just to have a simple service and give up some of the extra that pays for things that I have no use for or provide no true benefit to me.   

[George]

Jan 12, 2020 21:18:14 GMT -6 rockmillsherefords said:

So ya'll complain about the AHA because it's too expensive and they've been sloppy maintaining breed purity, but then ya'll interested in an outfit that will register an animal from an eartag number and a photo to save a few bucks...OK??!

Paul, it looks interesting to me. An International Registry that would work toward determining what % of our "registered Herefords" are truly Hereford. It's not really about the money to me....except I HATE to see a nickel of my money going to support an Association that will use it in areas that I am so opposed to supporting...the shows, EPDs, along with an absolute refusal of the AHA to acknowledge the Hereford breed is contaminated with the blood of other breeds or cooperate with research that might sort that out so FOLKS WHO CARE might find out where they stand with their breeding program.

My question about the certs wasn't about money. I have semen on a couple of bulls where their owners and I are no longer "friendly" and I have wanted to use it, but I figure I would never get certs if I did...and it appears I wouldn't have to worry about that now.

[1780]

Interesting however three things come to mind. History has clearly shown that if you leave a hole in a pedigree registration system, a rat will find it. Now with scientific discovery we have a way to identify breed integrity and it is NOT by parent verification. All parent verification does is tell you whether mum and dad are in fact the parents of the kid. It tells you nothing about breed integrity and if there has been a "little bit of fiddling" back there somewhere nobody knows. That the breed societies respond this way is hypocritical in the extreme: don't worry about the sins of the not very long ago past but we will make sure that you behave yourselves in future. If you can worry about parent verification in the future you should be prepared to admit it hasn't been a propriety in the past and that just maybe there is a problem. The second point is related, if you are serious about breed integrity every animal must be tested for it before they go onto the register. Then after a full generation is completed, and all old semen and embryos are destroyed, maybe then you can rely on parent verification.  Given that the latter is not likely to happen I see no way other than a breed integrity test AND full parent verification in the future if you want to be serious about pedigree cattle.  If you want to cheat, don't thieve a breed name,  go away and create your own breed AND don't spoil the fun for everybody else . The third point is the one made by Rockmill: the reference population.  Given what has happened to our breed I can tell you that the science says unless you have pre 1970 samples to commence your analysis your reference population for a breed that closed its herd book well over 100 years ago will not be creditable. In our research we have 8 Australian bulls by the same breeder in 8 consecutive years. The breed composition sits around the 90% mark for the first four years then an international pedigree pull was introduced into the herd.  The breed composition immediately dropped to below 50%. The reason I give this example is that its a good case study of what the reference population might do if you use animals akin to the first four years and what the reference population might look like if you use animals akin to the second four years.

[redgem]

Jan 12, 2020 23:49:42 GMT -6 1780 said:

The breed composition sits around the 90% mark for the first four years then an international pedigree pull was introduced into the herd.  The breed composition immediately dropped to below 50%. The reason I give this example is that its a good case study of what the reference population might do if you use animals akin to the first four years and what the reference population might look like if you use animals akin to the second four years.

That would put the bull at 10% . Not sure I'd see enough good things about him to go to the trouble of importing his semen. I would not say that I could tell between maybe 80 to 90%. I have seen some 75% that where hard to tell but I think it would show up at 10% as obviously not a Hereford.

[lcc]

Jan 12, 2020 21:50:24 GMT -6 George said:

Jan 12, 2020 21:18:14 GMT -6 rockmillsherefords said:

So ya'll complain about the AHA because it's too expensive and they've been sloppy maintaining breed purity, but then ya'll interested in an outfit that will register an animal from an eartag number and a photo to save a few bucks...OK??!

My question about the certs wasn't about money. I have semen on a couple of bulls where their owners and I are no longer "friendly" and I have wanted to use it, but I figure I would never get certs if I did...and it appears I wouldn't have to worry about that now.

Serious question -- can this actually happen?

Asking because of considered buying some rare semen before, but then what if the owner refuses to give certs? Money down the drain?

[lcc]

Jan 13, 2020 9:24:03 GMT -6 lcc said:

Jan 12, 2020 21:50:24 GMT -6 George said:

My question about the certs wasn't about money. I have semen on a couple of bulls where their owners and I are no longer "friendly" and I have wanted to use it, but I figure I would never get certs if I did...and it appears I wouldn't have to worry about that now.

Serious question -- can this actually happen?

Asking because of considered buying some rare semen before, but then what if the owner refuses to give certs? Money down the drain?

And I guess since I've replied in the thread, I've got to answer the original question. No, no interest from me.

[George]

Jan 13, 2020 9:24:03 GMT -6 lcc said:

Jan 12, 2020 21:50:24 GMT -6 George said:

My question about the certs wasn't about money. I have semen on a couple of bulls where their owners and I are no longer "friendly" and I have wanted to use it, but I figure I would never get certs if I did...and it appears I wouldn't have to worry about that now.

Serious question -- can this actually happen?

Asking because of considered buying some rare semen before, but then what if the owner refuses to give certs? Money down the drain?

On bulls that require certs for their calves to be registered with the AHA, those certs must be acquired through one of the active AHA member owners of the bull, who are free to set the cost and availability of those certs. If there are no recorded owners who are still AHA members, then you buy them from the AHA directly for $15.

[rosefield]

Jan 12, 2020 21:18:14 GMT -6 rockmillsherefords said:

So ya'll complain about the AHA because it's too expensive and they've been sloppy maintaining breed purity, but then ya'll interested in an outfit that will register an animal from an eartag number and a photo to save a few bucks...OK??!

When you register a calf with AHA or as any association does, you provide the date of birth of the calf, sire and dam, along with tattoo numbers.  There is no verification if the information is accurate or not, just the trusting of the breeders that what he is reporting is right. 

Look at your registration form, it has a pace for an ear tag number, we do as well and we also have space for a state metal tag number (bangs tag number) that we use for cross referencing an animal should visual ID become lost.

DNA testing of an animal costs and if every calf had to be genomic tested to be registered that would be costly.

I think that one way to advance the breed and purity would be to require a breeding age bull to have a BBR test or at the very least any bull that semen is being collected and sold.

With our dairy registry, if a herd is on official DHI test, we can validate that the calving date is correct.  We have found a few discrepancies where a calf was born a month before the date they were trying to register it as.  We refused to register the calf unless they did one of two things, either correct the date of the calf to the date that the cow calved or change the date that the records show that the cow calved.  They  changed the date of birth of the calf.

We have seen other pedigrees of other registries that show being incomplete and after some research it was because the date the animal was born was changed for show purposes.  We have found out that many breed associations do not check for these issues.

Registering beef animals is different, there is no way to validate if the date of birth given for a calf is right or not.  Registrations are on the integrity of the breeder!

IF, there is enough interest in a Heritage Hereford registry, registration rules would need to be according to what you as breeders want.  We are offering an opportunity for you as Hereford breeders for having a registry that does care about you and about the breed!