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Post by woodford on Sept 5, 2019 21:33:53 GMT -6
This is a question for those who know a lot about Line One and is merely something that I have been curious about for a few months. This is not intended to cause argument or hard feelings.
Some time ago I came across a pedigree for a bull from the Florida Experiment station that is Florida Station breeding for several generations, and then as far as I have checked, appears to go back to Line 1 genetics on all ancestors previous to the Florida breeding. I have not looked at the pedigree closely for a while so I may be mistaken on that, but I remember that all ancestors that I checked went back to Station bred Line 1 breeding.
You might wonder so what? Well, the interesting thing is that this pedigree from Florida is from a Polled bull out of what appears to be a horned sire and a first generation spontaneously occurring Polled dam who was out of horned parents. I don't care to say who this bull is in order to try to avoid arguments about whether or not this Polled bull is legitimate or not.
Out of curiosity, I did some digging into the pedigree of this bull and found an oddity that I would like to put here for discussion. I found a bull in the pedigree several times named:
L1 DOMINO 253 (9041928)
www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D235B26582F252E
253's maternal grand dam's sire is: AA DOMINO 2 (P36000423) born in 1945. Now, the news article about Ft. Keogh in 2009 indicates that the Line 1 herd has been closed since 1934 which is one discrepancy in addition to the Polled designation of AA Domino 2 whose daughter, A-A LADY 8 (4506253), and 253's maternal grand dam, is horned. 253 is several times in the pedigree that I was looking at, and if accurate means that the Polled gene was introduced long ago, but only now has manifested itself.
Since this makes little sense it would be easy to chalk this all up to an inaccurate database for the online records of AHA, except that another different daughter of AA Domino 2 has appeared in a different Station bred Line 1 pedigree, and this cow is named: A-A LADY (4506246) who also has a horned designation and was born in 1945.
So my trivia questions are: 1.) How long has the Line 1 herd been completely closed?
2.) Did the Line 1 Station ever buy either AA Domino 2, or any daughters of AA Domino 2.
3.) Is the Polled designation for AA Domino 2 correct?
The pedigree of AA Domino did not appear to have anything behind him to cause him to be designated Polled, so perhaps it is just an error. The registration number is odd as well. Or perhaps he is an example of a spontaneously appearing Polled animal.
As an aside, I have found a paper referring to an earlier Line 1 conversation about color markings with color pictures which I will add here for those who are interested.
J of Heredity 1975 Hereford Spots from the L1.pdf (1.86 MB)
Woodford
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Post by elkwc on Sept 6, 2019 7:02:11 GMT -6
This is a question for those who know a lot about Line One and is merely something that I have been curious about for a few months. This is not intended to cause argument or hard feelings.
Some time ago I came across a pedigree for a bull from the Florida Experiment station that is Florida Station breeding for several generations, and then as far as I have checked, appears to go back to Line 1 genetics on all ancestors previous to the Florida breeding. I have not looked at the pedigree closely for a while so I may be mistaken on that, but I remember that all ancestors that I checked went back to Station bred Line 1 breeding.
You might wonder so what? Well, the interesting thing is that this pedigree from Florida is from a Polled bull out of what appears to be a horned sire and a first generation spontaneously occurring Polled dam who was out of horned parents. I don't care to say who this bull is in order to try to avoid arguments about whether or not this Polled bull is legitimate or not.
Out of curiosity, I did some digging into the pedigree of this bull and found an oddity that I would like to put here for discussion. I found a bull in the pedigree several times named:
L1 DOMINO 253 (9041928)
www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5D235B26582F252E
253's maternal grand dam's sire is: AA DOMINO 2 (P36000423) born in 1945. Now, the news article about Ft. Keogh in 2009 indicates that the Line 1 herd has been closed since 1934 which is one discrepancy in addition to the Polled designation of AA Domino 2 whose daughter, A-A LADY 8 (4506253), and 253's maternal grand dam, is horned. 253 is several times in the pedigree that I was looking at, and if accurate means that the Polled gene was introduced long ago, but only now has manifested itself.
Since this makes little sense it would be easy to chalk this all up to an inaccurate database for the online records of AHA, except that another different daughter of AA Domino 2 has appeared in a different Station bred Line 1 pedigree, and this cow is named: A-A LADY (4506246) who also has a horned designation and was born in 1945.
So my trivia questions are: 1.) How long has the Line 1 herd been completely closed?
2.) Did the Line 1 Station ever buy either AA Domino 2, or any daughters of AA Domino 2.
3.) Is the Polled designation for AA Domino 2 correct?
The pedigree of AA Domino did not appear to have anything behind him to cause him to be designated Polled, so perhaps it is just an error. The registration number is odd as well. Or perhaps he is an example of a spontaneously appearing Polled animal.
As an aside, I have found a paper referring to an earlier Line 1 conversation about color markings with color pictures which I will add here for those who are interested.
View Attachment
Woodford
To me if you are unwilling to list the name of the polled sire there is no reason for me to spend my time playing your game. |
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Post by timbernt on Sept 6, 2019 9:47:38 GMT -6
I see no malice in Steven's post, just an interest in understanding what occurred at the research station in the years before they were subject to the scrutiny of the last 50 years. As far as the article with pictures of colored L1 cattle, I first saw that article about 40 years ago at the MU library. If my technical ability were better I would have posted it on this forum a few years ago.
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Post by cflory on Sept 6, 2019 10:32:41 GMT -6
I would guess you are referring to the 550 bull Alexander and Gene Henkel own.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2019 11:17:31 GMT -6
There may be no malice but it is childish.
I have no time for Trivia games, but the general issue of "polled L1s" can EASILY be explained.
Polled Herefords were brought onto the station in 1948, to create the L9 cattle. Bulls and cows being the sexual creatures they are, it is an easy enough explanation that a cow or bull wondered to a pasture and had a "quickie" that wasn't planned. Was it seen? No, or it would have been recorded correctly. Anyone who is remotely involved in the cattle business knows at times that fence and distance is easily overcome by the call of nature.
The bottom line is there are PEDIGREE errors in the L1 cattle. As there are in any cattle. It makes no difference that they are "government cows" (hell probably makes it more likely....LOL)....This was all long before parentage verification DNA. But any 4th grade sleuth can deduce that Polled Cattle coming on the premise in 1948 likely introduced the polled gene into the L1 cattle, as to the earlier cows, if they were in fact polled, I would assume a neighbors bull, the 1 in 20,000 deal just doesn't hold water in my book, funny how the Polled Gene struck so much back in those days but now that we have the tools to determine parentage, well, eh, not so much....LOL
Like the Battle of Bull runts said when it all gets boiled down: PEDIGREE ERROR.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2019 11:22:07 GMT -6
I would be much more interested in learning more about the spotting gene than playing make believe that there are TRUE polled L1s.....
No disrespect to Gene Henkel who I met at Rutt's dispersal and was a nice enough guy. Just common sense tells us what happened.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2019 11:22:57 GMT -6
I haven't had time to read the article but my thought is could the spotting gene be introduced from one of the dairy breeds?
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redgem
Weanling
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Post by redgem on Sept 6, 2019 12:05:35 GMT -6
I think there was 2 different ideas put forth. Possibly longhorn that was missed getting round up from before the herefords were started or Ayrshire that had been added at some point. I remember it being talked about at college and I think that was the only 2 ideas that may sence. After 40 years there may be something else that's been suggested.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2019 12:31:30 GMT -6
I have definitely heard the Longhorn thought before and it makes a lot of sense. People seem to forget we are talking about the 1930's here. World was a lot different then.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2019 13:57:11 GMT -6
Misspoke on that, obviously Polled is dominant trait not recessive but if it’s in the gene pool in the heterozygous form with the level of inbreeding, shouldn’t we have seen more of the Polled phenotype expressed through the years. I mean most of those cattle at 30% PLUS IBC. If it were there, it’d be showing up.
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Post by randy on Sept 6, 2019 14:04:42 GMT -6
Clerical Error... I am almost certain... The online herdbook is littered with them. There are also numerous omissions...
As far as a polled L1.... You can believe whatever you choose... Myself I don't believe in Santa Clause, Polled L1 or the Easter Bunny....
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redgem
Weanling
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Post by redgem on Sept 6, 2019 15:26:02 GMT -6
With polls being dominant they should all become polls in time and you should have seen an increase over time. Even a hetro polled bull should sire 1/2 polls out of horned cows.
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Post by randy on Sept 6, 2019 18:51:21 GMT -6
Sam Moore owner of Spur Cattle Co Harrison NB had a couple of L1 station bred cows with spots. He also talked about cows of other lines had owned that were spotted. In the years I was around him it was know that he would buy any cow with that trait. Sam had his purebred herd and then he had a commercial herd that raised many winning pen feeder cattle shows.
I can remember in the early 70s sitting around at a couple of shows visiting about the spotted trait. I made a list of those in those groups that talked about it and knew things. Unfortunately all of those men have long passed on. As with many things knowledge is often lost to time..
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Post by simoon on Sept 6, 2019 20:29:08 GMT -6
Good topic and thread, Steven, and a good attempt to get this forum moving again. (It’s been a little stale since the Canadian left.) I think that a polled Line 1 is about the same as any other polled Hereford; there’s some outside breed in these animals’ backgrounds.
I’d like to know more about the spotted Herefords also going forward. (I’m leaning towards the same opinion on these Spots too though.)
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Sept 6, 2019 22:15:58 GMT -6
With 2 out of 9 progeny also listed as polled on AA Domino 2 I doubt it was a clerical error. As for the WCF station, they've apparently had problems keeping up with who's breeding what many times. Just one example, there's more. Fixed the link link |
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 7, 2019 10:25:12 GMT -6
550's dam was registered as a polled cow out of horned parents in 1990. Several years after blood typing was developed and Perfection was green-papered. Why wasn't she bloodtyped at the time of registration?
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Sept 7, 2019 12:14:46 GMT -6
550's dam was registered as a polled cow out of horned parents in 1990. Several years after blood typing was developed and Perfection was green-papered. Why wasn't she bloodtyped at the time of registration? The associations policy was if no one raised their hand to complain then it's good, the purist rarely raised their hands the past 100 years, now it's a big deal because they are dying a pretty quick death. |
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Post by Glenn on Sept 7, 2019 13:08:09 GMT -6
In many ways, I sure agree with what Paul states above. The "lets just add a little of this and a little of that" crowd have suddenly realized that the people that give a damn are so few and have absolutely no power that there is no recourse for "doing their thing".
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 7, 2019 13:45:19 GMT -6
In many ways, I sure agree with what Paul states above. The "lets just add a little of this and a little of that" crowd have suddenly realized that the people that give a damn are so few and have absolutely no power that there is no recourse for "doing their thing". Which Paul? :-) |
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 7, 2019 17:56:19 GMT -6
550's dam was registered as a polled cow out of horned parents in 1990. Several years after blood typing was developed and Perfection was green-papered. Why wasn't she bloodtyped at the time of registration? The associations policy was if no one raised their hand to complain then it's good, the purist rarely raised their hands the past 100 years, now it's a big deal because they are dying a pretty quick death. Bologna, the internet didn't exist in 1990 so there was no way the broader membership could know that such a calf existed. The outcrossing doesn't bother me what bothers me is the lack of honesty about what has happened. If the perception of purity is not a big issue then why not admit what happened and move on as a composite breed like the Simmental, Gelbvieh, or Limousin. |
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Post by George on Sept 7, 2019 19:21:53 GMT -6
The associations policy was if no one raised their hand to complain then it's good, the purist rarely raised their hands the past 100 years, now it's a big deal because they are dying a pretty quick death. Bologna, the internet didn't exist in 1990 so there was no way the broader membership could know that such a calf existed. The outcrossing doesn't bother me what bothers me is the lack of honesty about what has happened. If the perception of purity is not a big issue then why not admit what happened and move on as a composite breed like the Simmental, Gelbvieh, or Limousin. Paul, as I understand it, the "rub" with the North American Hereford Assns. admitting there is a purity problem in the breed, that originated on our continent, has to do with the agreement that was made through the World Hereford Council that animals "registered" in their home country are accepted in the other participant nations as purebred. In America, such misrepresentation would likely be largely a civil matter at most, but in some of these other nations, whose laws differ, it could land a person in jail with criminal penalties. Someone can feel free to correct me if I am under the wrong impression. |
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 8, 2019 11:02:50 GMT -6
Bologna, the internet didn't exist in 1990 so there was no way the broader membership could know that such a calf existed. The outcrossing doesn't bother me what bothers me is the lack of honesty about what has happened. If the perception of purity is not a big issue then why not admit what happened and move on as a composite breed like the Simmental, Gelbvieh, or Limousin. Paul, as I understand it, the "rub" with the North American Hereford Assns. admitting there is a purity problem in the breed, that originated on our continent, has to do with the agreement that was made through the World Hereford Council that animals "registered" in their home country are accepted in the other participant nations as purebred. In America, such misrepresentation would likely be largely a civil matter at most, but in some of these other nations, whose laws differ, it could land a person in jail with criminal penalties. Someone can feel free to correct me if I am under the wrong impression. I don't know about criminal penalties but in Europe the have stricter rules on labeling and in England there is some park lands that are only leased for grazing traditional livestock on. |
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redgem
Weanling
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Post by redgem on Sept 8, 2019 19:36:27 GMT -6
I would agree with clerical error. If you look at the CHA site AA Domino 2 is a horned bull and has only horned offspring. And a normal reg # A03379090. The AA lady's are all horned. The fact that he's double bred advance domino 20 I wonder if the AA were a different experiment at one time and added to the l1's?
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Post by randy on Sept 8, 2019 21:55:48 GMT -6
I would agree with clerical error. If you look at the CHA site AA Domino 2 is a horned bull and has only horned offspring. And a normal reg # A03379090. The AA lady's are all horned. The fact that he's double bred advance domino 20 I wonder if the AA were a different experiment at one time and added to the l1's? I would believe that it is a given that the cattle in that point in the pedigree were all at an ARS site... Possibly all at Fort Keogh. There is so much history that we know little about and maybe today there is no one that truly knows what happened back then. If you look through enough old L1 pedigrees you will see things that show up that have no answers.. |
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Sept 25, 2019 13:37:22 GMT -6
The associations policy was if no one raised their hand to complain then it's good, the purist rarely raised their hands the past 100 years, now it's a big deal because they are dying a pretty quick death. Bologna, the internet didn't exist in 1990 so there was no way the broader membership could know that such a calf existed. The outcrossing doesn't bother me what bothers me is the lack of honesty about what has happened. If the perception of purity is not a big issue then why not admit what happened and move on as a composite breed like the Simmental, Gelbvieh, or Limousin. True the "general" membership didn't know what was going on, I'm not sure it would have made a difference, they know now, nothing really changed. |
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