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Post by tartancowgirl on May 31, 2018 13:35:04 GMT -6
I was told yesterday that dwarfism still exists in Herefords. I assumed that the condition had been eliminated. Is this true?
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Post by timbernt on May 31, 2018 18:53:29 GMT -6
About 20 years ago I pulled a couple of dwarf calves for a Polled breeder. Still occurs in Angus.
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Post by randy on May 31, 2018 19:58:54 GMT -6
About 20 years ago I pulled a couple of dwarf calves for a Polled breeder. Still occurs in Angus. I am thinking there might be some semen still around that could be a carrier.. Hmmm?  |
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Post by fivestarherefords on May 31, 2018 20:17:29 GMT -6
linkWe dealt with this issue last spring and the spring before. Couldn't get any answers from anybody and was at wits end until I stumbled across an article on congenital joint laxity and dwarfism (CJLD). As soon as I got through a couple different articles and studies I was thoroughly convinced that this was what we were seeing. Two years ago we had 9 or 10 calves that looked very similar to the calf pictured in the link and weighed between 45 and 55 pounds and were full term. We lost two or three and babied the rest along and helped them nurse long enough to get there balance which was nearly a week each. The calves weaned off in the 300 pound range but their hind legs looked fairly normal after about a month. Most of these calves were out of purchased bred heifers and a heavily used AI sire and I couldn't find anyone that had similar problems. A few of our home raised heifers and one cow also had one so that added to the confusion. I couldn't find any answers that year and things got busy and life went on. I chalked it up to bad luck and moved on. Fall calving rolled around and 45-50 cows and heifers calved with no problems. Fast forward to last spring and calving started and rolled into March with no problems. March 9th rolled around and at about midnight the first one showed up to be followed by 2 more the next day. My nightmares were starting again so I thought. Luckily we didn't see anymore issues last year. All of the calves last year and the year before were born between March 6th and March 15th and most of the calves in that window were affected. We bring all cows off pasture the weekend prior to Thanksgiving and begin feeding them nothing but wrapped hay which is mostly orchard grass and red clover. My theory is that at some point shortly after this change in feed there is an important skeletal development stage of gestation and those cows that are in it are having issues due to a Manganese deficiency caused by the fermented feed. I figured most of this out last spring and was convinced enough to bale enough dry hay last summer to supplement the spring calvers with one dry bale for every four wrapped bales. We calved about 60 head this spring with no issues. Needless to say we will be baling some dry hay going forward. I wonder how many of the dwarfism problems of the past were actually nutrition related instead of genetics. Sorry for the long post but wanted to try to be as clear as possible as we aren't in the business of hiding our problems out behind the barn.
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Post by timbernt on May 31, 2018 22:24:09 GMT -6
It does not sound like your issue was the autosomal recessive snorter dwarfs from the past. However, I am skeptical you have a definitive answer yet. I keep hearing from longtime Angus breeders that dwarfism is still a problem for them. More than one old breeder has told me they think it will result in another purge of Angus genetics.
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Dwarfism
May 31, 2018 23:40:07 GMT -6
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Post by hoekland on May 31, 2018 23:40:07 GMT -6
I’ve seen 4 or 5 dwarfs is a red Angus herd I’m managing. Beautiful calves otherwise they just don’t grow. Which make me wonder if they have all the answers to the inheritance of dwarfism in the different breeds? Do you get geades of dwarfism in Angus? These calves were about two thirds the height of their contemporaries at weaning, built like lamdrace pigs.
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Post by elkwc on Jun 1, 2018 5:01:59 GMT -6
It does not sound like your issue was the autosomal recessive snorter dwarfs from the past. However, I am skeptical you have a definitive answer yet. I keep hearing from longtime Angus breeders that dwarfism is still a problem for them. More than one old breeder has told me they think it will result in another purge of Angus genetics. I was told about a few supposedly dwarfs about a year ago. Never saw them. They were small then and the intent was to eat them but have never heard anymore. So not sure if they were or not. |
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Post by tartancowgirl on Jun 1, 2018 6:36:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the replies - that's why I love this forum! I don't know if the person who said it had actually seen any or was just quoting rumour, or whether what was meant was a different form of dwarfism, which I'm sure can occur, such as the one described by @fivestarherefords. I haven't heard of a DNA test for the original Hereford problem - does anyone know if there is one?
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Post by strojanherefords on Jun 1, 2018 15:51:27 GMT -6
linkWe dealt with this issue last spring and the spring before. Couldn't get any answers from anybody and was at wits end until I stumbled across an article on congenital joint laxity and dwarfism (CJLD). As soon as I got through a couple different articles and studies I was thoroughly convinced that this was what we were seeing. Two years ago we had 9 or 10 calves that looked very similar to the calf pictured in the link and weighed between 45 and 55 pounds and were full term. We lost two or three and babied the rest along and helped them nurse long enough to get there balance which was nearly a week each. The calves weaned off in the 300 pound range but their hind legs looked fairly normal after about a month. Most of these calves were out of purchased bred heifers and a heavily used AI sire and I couldn't find anyone that had similar problems. A few of our home raised heifers and one cow also had one so that added to the confusion. I couldn't find any answers that year and things got busy and life went on. I chalked it up to bad luck and moved on. Fall calving rolled around and 45-50 cows and heifers calved with no problems. Fast forward to last spring and calving started and rolled into March with no problems. March 9th rolled around and at about midnight the first one showed up to be followed by 2 more the next day. My nightmares were starting again so I thought. Luckily we didn't see anymore issues last year. All of the calves last year and the year before were born between March 6th and March 15th and most of the calves in that window were affected. We bring all cows off pasture the weekend prior to Thanksgiving and begin feeding them nothing but wrapped hay which is mostly orchard grass and red clover. My theory is that at some point shortly after this change in feed there is an important skeletal development stage of gestation and those cows that are in it are having issues due to a Manganese deficiency caused by the fermented feed. I figured most of this out last spring and was convinced enough to bale enough dry hay last summer to supplement the spring calvers with one dry bale for every four wrapped bales. We calved about 60 head this spring with no issues. Needless to say we will be baling some dry hay going forward. I wonder how many of the dwarfism problems of the past were actually nutrition related instead of genetics. Sorry for the long post but wanted to try to be as clear as possible as we aren't in the business of hiding our problems out behind the barn. Where the affected calves born early? I have had similar problems and the affected calves were born a couple weeks before their due dates. I agree it is nutritional and a dry mineral seems to have taken care of the problem. That being said I have seen congenital joint laxity run in families and I would like to use DNA technology to identify any genetic ties between affected cattle. The great tragedy of the battle of bull runts was how many cattle were culled unnecessarily because we didn't have the technology to tell a carrier from a non-carrier. |
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Dwarfism
Jun 1, 2018 17:07:52 GMT -6
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Post by fivestarherefords on Jun 1, 2018 17:07:52 GMT -6
Where the affected calves born early? I have had similar problems and the affected calves were born a couple weeks before their due dates. I agree it is nutritional and a dry mineral seems to have taken care of the problem. That being said I have seen congenital joint laxity run in families and I would like to use DNA technology to identify any genetic ties between affected cattle. The great tragedy of the battle of bull runts was how many cattle were culled unnecessarily because we didn't have the technology to tell a carrier from a non-carrier. Calves were born within a few days of AI due date. We've been on a good Mineral supplement program for quite a few years prior to this issue. |
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Post by woodford on Jun 1, 2018 23:19:06 GMT -6
I’ve seen 4 or 5 dwarfs is a red Angus herd I’m managing. Beautiful calves otherwise they just don’t grow. Which make me wonder if they have all the answers to the inheritance of dwarfism in the different breeds? Do you get geades of dwarfism in Angus? These calves were about two thirds the height of their contemporaries at weaning, built like lamdrace pigs.
In the book McCann states that there is one type of dwarfism in the Hereford breed, the autosomal, as Tim has mentioned. Its common name is the "snorter" dwarf because of the dwarfs noisy breathing. The Angus dwarfs, however, " were of 2 types, namely, long-headed and, short-headed or "snorter" dwarfs and the hereditary pattern differed for the two." McCann did not elaborate further on the differences between the types of dwarfism in the Angus breed, but I have inferred that the long headed type is inherited as a dominant gene while the snorter type such as the Hereford has is recessive.
Recessive means that both parents have to be dwarf carriers in order to produce dwarf calves, and on average dwarf carrier parents pass the gene onto 1/2 of their progeny. Matings of a carrier to a non-carrier will never produce a dwarf, but again, 1/2 of the progeny will be carriers. Matings of carriers to carriers will produce 1/4 normal non-carrier calves, 1/2 carriers, and 1/4 dwarfs on average, but some matings could go many times in succession without a dwarf, or many dwarf calves one right after another.
If there is no test for snorter dwarfism, then the only thing a breeder could do today is inbreed a sire to his daughters 15-25 times in order to eliminate the sire, or breed the bull to the same amount of know dwarf carrier cows which fortunately are hard to find.
I think that the dwarf gene could still exist in the Hereford breed, especially in commercial cattle since many papered dwarf carrier cows were sold to commercial ranches rather than directly to the butcher.
As for the Angus breed, I read somewhere in the last year or two that the Angus Association was forced to develop a genetic test for dwarfism, but do not know which type of dwarfism that it is for. If it is for snorter, then it seem possible to me at least that the test would work for the Hereford breed as well, but who knows.
One individual I have spoken with is convinced that the dwarfism gene is related to, or is the same gene that causes albinism.
The following pictures were taken not long ago at a museum, and since I had never seen a real dwarf outside of a photo, I felt that it was important to keep photos of it for myself. Even though this is a mounted, or stuffed calf, it still left a lasting impression on me. The animal beside the calf is called an armadillo,( for those that live in outside of the Americas) and was also impressive to me because the armadillo is about the size of a piglet, so the dwarf calf must have been a newborn when it died. It gives an idea of scale, or size of the calf.
WoodfordAttachments:
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Post by hoekland on Jun 2, 2018 1:22:19 GMT -6
I read that book, wasn’t too interested in the angus parts but remember it now that you’ve mentioned it.
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Post by elkwc on Jun 2, 2018 6:15:13 GMT -6
I saw several in the 60’s and early 70’s. That was the beef the cowboys were gave to eat great eating. One ranch we helped had a pasture and any cow that had one went there. They never retained anything from these cows so over time they elongated them. They were about a 1,600 cow outfit and Ivan remember when the pasture would have over 50 cows in it.
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Dwarfism
Jun 2, 2018 10:21:58 GMT -6
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Post by tartancowgirl on Jun 2, 2018 10:21:58 GMT -6
That is so interesting. Especially the photo of the little calf. How long did they normally survive? I must get that book!
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Dwarfism
Jun 2, 2018 10:22:39 GMT -6
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Post by hoekland on Jun 2, 2018 10:22:39 GMT -6
To what size did the snorter dwarfs grow out? Were they fertile?
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Jun 2, 2018 12:10:51 GMT -6
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Post by Glenn on Jun 4, 2018 18:36:33 GMT -6
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Post by tartancowgirl on Jun 5, 2018 2:51:08 GMT -6
Great photo Glenn - it must have been very quiet to stand on that pedestal! So that looks about 2 feet 3 inches tall or thereabouts?
It's quite cute really - judging by the recent popularity here of "miniature pigs" there would probably be a market for them as pets! (Heaven forbid!)
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Post by George on Jun 13, 2018 8:49:08 GMT -6
I received this from John Alexander via FB Messenger and wanted to pass it along to anyone interested.
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Post by fpherf on Jun 13, 2018 8:58:46 GMT -6
If I remember my "Battle of Bull Runts" correctly, I believe the source was a bull known as "St Louis Lad" -- who's progeny were utilized to great extent by Wyoming Hereford Ranch (and others). Thank you to Woodford for presenting an excellent (condensed) summary of "Bull Runts" above; the book itself is rather dry.
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Post by George on Jun 13, 2018 9:07:51 GMT -6
If I remember my "Battle of Bull Runts" correctly, I believe the source was a bull known as "St Louis Lad" -- who's progeny were utilized to great extent by Wyoming Hereford Ranch (and others). Thank you to Woodford for presenting an excellent (condensed) summary of "Bull Runts" above; the book itself is rather dry. I believe John may be questioning that scenario in his message. I need to reread that book now, with my newfound skepticism that honesty in the registered Hereford business is a lot rarer than I once thought. Perhaps I may come away with a different perspective. |
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Post by saltamontes5 on Jun 13, 2018 12:25:04 GMT -6
I believe John may be questioning that scenario in his message. I need to reread that book now, with my newfound skepticism that honesty in the registered Hereford business is a lot rarer than I once thought. Perhaps I may come away with a different perspective. George you are correct. In the "Battle of Bull Runts" book which is the definitive documentation on the topic "St Louis Lad" is the bull that was found to be the link to the source of the dwarfism mutation. "St Louis Lad" was not of Anxiety 4th extraction. However, Anxiety 4th cattle as you well know a that time in history were ubiquitous, and therefore there was a lot of rumor. However, the only Anxiety 4th animals that carried the mutation were ones that had "St Louis Lad" slipped into their pedigree. Anxiety the 4th, and his descendants were cleared except for those with a dose of "St Louis Lad". |
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Post by woodford on Jun 13, 2018 22:38:50 GMT -6
It was, and is easy to believe that the Anxiety cattle were a source of dwarfism, especially when the Anxiety lines were tightly line bred and at the same time used nearly everywhere in North America. Dwarf carrier cattle with names like Prince Domino C, WHR Belle Domino 49, and Larry Domino 50 did nothing to help stop these suspicions.
In one case in particular, a dwarf carrier cow named Temptation who was a granddaughter of St. Louis lad went through the hands of a prominent Gudgell and Simpson herd, but she and her offspring were eventually culled from this herd because the bloodline was not straight Gudgell and Simpson breeding, or of a "closed Anxiety 4th" pedigree. These cattle however, were considered to be high quality regardless, so other prominent breeders propagated the line further.
The Anxiety 4th lines were eventually cleared by a lot of work and research, and the clearing of Prince Domino was a great relief to a lot of breeders.
In the case of St. Louis Lad, he was the progenitor of most of the dwarf problem, but not all. It was only towards the end of the research, that one dwarf carrier dam in particular, from a herd in New Mexico, did not trace back to St. Louis Lad, but instead to his grandsire, Kansas Lad. Up to that time Kansas Lad had not been suspected.
It is too bad that Bud Snidow is deceased. Many remember him as an artist of Hereford cattle, but he is also the one that took over the dwarf pedigree work after L.P. McCann retired. I was once fortunate enough to meet Bud and have a very good candid conversation about dwarfism.
Woodford
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Dwarfism
Jun 18, 2018 21:16:12 GMT -6
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Post by jayh on Jun 18, 2018 21:16:12 GMT -6
Funny u mentioned Larry Domino 50. One of my grandad s bulls trace to him.  |
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Post by soherf on Apr 3, 2021 20:02:52 GMT -6
I just finished the book and from what I read I understand that Prince Domino C was cleared. Is that correct?
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