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Post by Glenn on Jul 21, 2014 9:21:18 GMT -6
It seems to me in looking around at cattle that Herefords have for the most part really improved udders relative to other breeds. But sadly we still suffer from a stigma from times past. Here is a pic that I saw on another site. You see tons of udders like this in commercial cows, yet for some reason people still say "Herefords have bad udders"
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Deleted
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Udders
Jul 21, 2014 9:43:25 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 9:43:25 GMT -6
A least that guy has the right colored bull For the most part I think Hereford breeders have cleaned up udder structure so it is a false stigma. Won't lie, we have a cow or 2 that we sometimes have to get in right after calving and milk out a big teat but they sure don't have 4 teats that look like those.
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Deleted
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Udders
Jul 21, 2014 14:53:38 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 14:53:38 GMT -6
The reason you do not see more Brazilian genetics here.
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Udders
Jul 21, 2014 15:49:32 GMT -6
Post by elkwc on Jul 21, 2014 15:49:32 GMT -6
Glenn I've made a similar comment a few times. I'm sure I have here. That is the one thing that both the Horned and Polled breeders have improved greatly. I've seen some good udders on some of the Angus cattle and then some not so good on others. Like I've stated before and other commercial breeders have expressed if and when the polled breeders quit following the show ring favorite flavor of the year for type and address the muscling issue there will be a significant increase in the number of polled bulls that you see around. That is what is currently holding them back. The short, squatty cattle that are narrow in the pins and light muscled won't cut it in the commercial world many of us operate in. I think it would be a good requirement that all seedstock producers have to feed a pen of cattle at least once every two years. You can bet they would pay more attention to what it takes to make a profit in the real world.
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Udders
Jul 22, 2014 7:13:19 GMT -6
Post by nicky on Jul 22, 2014 7:13:19 GMT -6
The reason you do not see more Brazilian genetics here. Yikes
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Udders
Jul 31, 2014 10:36:36 GMT -6
Post by bookcliff on Jul 31, 2014 10:36:36 GMT -6
Glenn I've made a similar comment a few times. I'm sure I have here. That is the one thing that both the Horned and Polled breeders have improved greatly. I've seen some good udders on some of the Angus cattle and then some not so good on others. Like I've stated before and other commercial breeders have expressed if and when the polled breeders quit following the show ring favorite flavor of the year for type and address the muscling issue there will be a significant increase in the number of polled bulls that you see around. That is what is currently holding them back. The short, squatty cattle that are narrow in the pins and light muscled won't cut it in the commercial world many of us operate in. I think it would be a good requirement that all seedstock producers have to feed a pen of cattle at least once every two years. You can bet they would pay more attention to what it takes to make a profit in the real world. I have been saying it for years, there ought to be a law that you can't be in the seedstock business until you've run a package of commerical cows for at least 10 years, run either some wheat pasture cattle or grass cattle AND fed out several pens of fats over the same timeframe. but then again if this were the case, what would happen to the circus under the big tent and all the carnies barking their wares and games?
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tff
Fresh Calf
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Udders
Jul 31, 2014 12:59:46 GMT -6
Post by tff on Jul 31, 2014 12:59:46 GMT -6
Elkwc and Bookcliff, What AI bulls can add the width through the pins and thickness of muscle, and help improve eye set?
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Udders
Jul 31, 2014 15:51:21 GMT -6
Post by elkwc on Jul 31, 2014 15:51:21 GMT -6
Tff I will let Bookcliff answer that as I don't AI and do look at some bulls once in a while but would hesitate to recommend anything I hadn't seen in person. I have seen a few herd bulls that seem to be throwing more muscling than most but really have never paid much attention to eye set as such unless I noticed a problem. I guess unless something stands out as abnormal I don't pay any extra attention to the eyes and their set. I've seen some Horned bulls I have really liked the calves. Some of the better polled bulls I've seen have been by About Time, Redeem, Barber Ranch breeding, a son of Jensen's Ambassador and Trust. The About Time calves I've seen out of good, moderate, polled cows have been well muscled. Maybe not as much growth power as I desire all of the time but good, sound, functional cattle. Of course the good cows lend a lot to what they are. Most of the Horned breeding I've seen has been line one. I saw some calves by a Miles City L1 bull a few weeks ago. Almost everyone of his yearlings and calves had a big, well muscled rump, good legs and feet(at least what you could see in the foot tall grass). A son of Harland 408 was getting some nice calves also. I've been disappointed in most of the Durango's and Ribeye's I've seen. Again just my opinion from the limited amount I've seen.
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Udders
Jul 31, 2014 21:12:51 GMT -6
Post by bookcliff on Jul 31, 2014 21:12:51 GMT -6
as far as eyeset goes, look at the tread that is up right now on it and that will give you a pertty good idea of what is right and what isn't. personally, quite a bit of the semen I drop year to year is mostly old and/or dead bulls that have proven the test of time that semen is long gone for the most part or in the $$$ range per straw if it can be found + EPD's often suck according to the guru's but I don't care.
as far as currently readily available semen that I have used that in my opinion have consistantly sired proper eyeset here.....3027, Harland & for the most part Legend
as to your second question, I would agree with the About Time comment from my nieghbor from the SW, haven't personally ever used him but from the pile of em that I have seen I would agree. 3027's are a hit and miss in this regard, depends alot on the cow, and 5216 looks like he's is diong it more consistantly than his sire does. my Harlands won't add any but they won't take it away. Legend, if the cow is big topped, the calf will be too and often times even more so than mom however if she's frail then not so much, or at least that what he's done here
the handful of other readly available bulls (stud and otherwise) that I have sampled the past couple years have taken a major step backwards on one or both the two pehnotypic traits you referenced in general across the cows they were bred to here. as far as the 202 bull he himself looks right in these respects, but I won't have calves on the ground till this coming spring to look at here. hence why I dig back in the can for quite a bit of the genetics I use if they aren't old highly and widely used bulls like 3027 who have proven they don't sire phenotypic issues, some of which you have mentioned.
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Udders
Aug 1, 2014 4:51:57 GMT -6
Post by hoekland on Aug 1, 2014 4:51:57 GMT -6
Have you noticed that a lot of poll bulls will sire quite a bit of width in the rearquarter but often combine that with very narrow chests?
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Deleted
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Udders
Aug 1, 2014 4:57:48 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 4:57:48 GMT -6
as far as eyeset goes, look at the tread that is up right now on it and that will give you a pertty good idea of what is right and what isn't. personally, quite a bit of the semen I drop year to year is mostly old and/or dead bulls that have proven the test of time that semen is long gone for the most part or in the $$$ range per straw if it can be found + EPD's often suck according to the guru's but I don't care. If you look at the ABBA EPDs the best numbers are on old bulls like Karu Manso and Cuatro Didor. How on earth can a 16 month old bull have the best numbers in anything?
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Deleted
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Udders
Aug 1, 2014 5:00:44 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 5:00:44 GMT -6
Have you noticed that a lot of poll bulls will sire quite a bit of width in the rearquarter but often combine that with very narrow chests? Not trying to step on any toes but this is exactly why the bull Redeem and his bloodline was eliminated from use down here. Tight heart girth and front legs nearly touching each other.
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Udders
Aug 1, 2014 6:30:01 GMT -6
Post by elkwc on Aug 1, 2014 6:30:01 GMT -6
Have you noticed that a lot of poll bulls will sire quite a bit of width in the rearquarter but often combine that with very narrow chests? Hoekland from those I've viewed since the first of the year I've noticed a lot of width at the hooks on a lot of the polls but many are very narrow at the pins. On some their hocks rub when they walk. I've seen various other structal issues on several I've viewed. I've seen 1-2 narrow chests but overall the chests have been wide, the bone on some is too big and the wrong type, on several from the hottest breeders the cattle are more compasct and frame 4 or smaller. The main issues I've found are muscling, narrow at the pins and structural issues similar to the video posted in another thread and the one I mentioned above. I've found a few with good muscling throughout. Overall the udders on the cows have been good. I'm curious what bloodlines you have seen the narrow chests in.
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tff
Fresh Calf
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Udders
Aug 1, 2014 6:56:27 GMT -6
Post by tff on Aug 1, 2014 6:56:27 GMT -6
Thank you Elkwc and Bookcliff for your responses. I've been using some of the bulls you've mentioned, 3027 and Trust. I have been happy with the M326 line thus far but haven't used Ribeye.
I also bought semen on the King Ten son from Grandview last fall, only got one cow AIed to him but look forward to seeing what the calf looks like when it arrives next March.
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Udders
Aug 1, 2014 6:59:56 GMT -6
Post by elkwc on Aug 1, 2014 6:59:56 GMT -6
Have you noticed that a lot of poll bulls will sire quite a bit of width in the rearquarter but often combine that with very narrow chests? Not trying to step on any toes but this is exactly why the bull Redeem and his bloodline was eliminated from use down here. Tight heart girth and front legs nearly touching each other. JW I haven't viewed a Redeem son in person yet. Have seen a few of his daughters in the best basically straight polled herd I've viewed so far. Although most of the good polled cattle I've seen have some horned influence not far back in the background this herd doesn't have much and if any exists it is likely way back. A 3 generation operation. They are very good cattlemen who all have a good eye and handle their registered herd just like the commercial breeders in the area do their herds. The Redeem daughters I saw were in their working clothes in late winter and very good cows. Moderate framed, well muscled, good udders, good capacity, well balanced and good structure. This same operation had used Ribeye AI for several years and didn't have a single cow to show for it. So my observations about Redeem are from viewing a limited number of heifers/ cows and each were out of proven good cows which I'm sure had a lot of influence on the Redeem daughters I saw. His daughters weren't the best in the herd but they were good cows that would survive and produce in a grass, cake operation. If I get the chance to see a Redeem son or cows from another herd I'll pay attention to the heart girth and front legs. Legs, bone and the capacity of an animal are the first things I look at. So I usually notice any issues in these areas quickly and I eliminate an animal from further consideration if I observe them. I did see a Trust son out of a 242 daughter recently that is a nice bull and getting some nice calves. Saw the first Durango cows that I felt were ok and had enough size and frame. They were out of bigger cows with some Horned influence and 1-2 of them still didn't have enough frame. Would look nice on a fireplace mantle but not in a rough pasture. I've noticed narrow pins on a few of the Durango sons I've seen.
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Udders
Aug 1, 2014 21:41:27 GMT -6
Post by picketwire on Aug 1, 2014 21:41:27 GMT -6
I have been saying it for years, there ought to be a law that you can't be in the seedstock business until you've run a package of commerical cows for at least 10 years, run either some wheat pasture cattle or grass cattle AND fed out several pens of fats over the same timeframe. AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!
but then again if this were the case, what would happen to the circus under the big tent and all the carnies barking their wares and games? [/quote][/p]
same thing they have always done, run for congress and move to DC. . .
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