THE PERFECTION CASE

[Deleted]

December Hereford World, page 6 center/middle of the page. THE PERFECTION CASE....wow, I guess we all have our version of history.

[Glenn]

Don't spoil it for me!! Lol. I was saving my magazine to read on the plane tomorrow!

[bookcliff]

as one who aborted cows bred to Perfection in my first job during college as a herdsman , that is an interesting take on it.

[hoekland]

Tom, I'm very interested in your version of the story and since I don't get the Hereford World I won't ever see the other side of the story.

[picketwire]

Now I can't wait to see it just to see the political spin. I can only imagine.

[George]

Based on the ad on Page 1 of the National Western sale, it looks like Montie Soules and Josh Taylor have ventured out west to Oregon.

[bookcliff]

Harley,

the article is online on the AHA website, just go the the Hereford World link and you can read page 6.

Tom

[bookcliff]

harley,

here is my thoughts. first let me say that I beleive perfection was dirty and should have been kicked out fo the registry. that being said and what is next come from the recollections of my conversations with Steve Rogers who was the manager I was working for at the time and my fathers conversations with either Walter or Joe Lewis (can't remember which one, it was a long time ago) and Norman Kanak along with all things you here about things like this that pop up. that is what forms my following opinion.

a doctor from back east who is a new-bie tidewater smokes everyone in the ring and peolpe start grumbling. then that bulls progeny start smoking everyone in the showring so people get to digging and well he didn't cover his tracks real well and gets caught diong the same kinda thing other outfits are diong and gets made an example of. but hey, he ain't the old guard and he ain't one of the big rims so politically we can bust it off in him and get those cattle out of our way so we can win the banners.

I think Rich did the right thing fighting this to the point it almost bankrupted APHA to win the fight to kick Prefection out. however we can all name bulls and outfits that have represented bulls as stragiht hereford that weren't during the same timeframe that still to this day retain their papers, otherwise the diluter problem in the breed would be a non-existant issue. futhremore to give hop any credit on this issue is a bunch of BS considering 7777, 23D, primetime and summit all came about on his watch and retained their papers.

Prefection's owner and breeder was an easy target abate a costly one-- new guy, hobby breeder, didn't cover their tracks very well and weren't with it enough to use something that had a chance of not raising suspision right off the bat. however if you have the politics on your side like some of the aformentioned bulls there is a different result.

[hrndherf]

Very nice summary. Most breeders aren't aware of all this, good someone is around who isn't afraid to talk about it. Most of us know who the crossbreds were, just hate to think of the ones that were not detected.

Gets under my skin cause we had 7777 calves born here. When those daughters calved bred to an Angus bull, there was no doubt. I actually had a 50% Hereford and 50% longhorn born here this spring that reminded me a lot of one of those calves. 7777 daughter's calf had more spots, not so much white,yellow, and more muscle than this longhorn, but still similar color pattern. Have been looking for that old picture of that calf but it hasn't turned up. It was more interesting than just diluter.

7777 plain and simple ruined a good bunch of registered cows here. We didn't continue registering them even though AHA said we could, we knew what we now had was not purebred hereford.

Here is that longhorn X hereford

Attachments:

[greenore]

First time I heard the term diluted I was working at a simmital sale in the early 90s that was when they were turning their bred black

[hrndherf]

how did those simmi breeders handle diluters when they went black. Did most dna test and cull or cull as they turned up. Don't remember seeing any sold as breeding stock now that you mention it, but did see some cows in reg. herds at one time.

[greenore]

At the time culled the greys

[Deleted]

Dec 4, 2012 20:41:20 GMT -6 bookcliff said:

harley,

here is my thoughts. first let me say that I beleive perfection was dirty and should have been kicked out fo the registry. that being said and what is next come from the recollections of my conversations with Steve Rogers who was the manager I was working for at the time and my fathers conversations with either Walter or Joe Lewis (can't remember which one, it was a long time ago) and Norman Kanak along with all things you here about things like this that pop up. that is what forms my following opinion.

a doctor from back east who is a new-bie tidewater smokes everyone in the ring and peolpe start grumbling. then that bulls progeny start smoking everyone in the showring so people get to digging and well he didn't cover his tracks real well and gets caught diong the same kinda thing other outfits are diong and gets made an example of. but hey, he ain't the old guard and he ain't one of the big rims so politically we can bust it off in him and get those cattle out of our way so we can win the banners.

I think Rich did the right thing fighting this to the point it almost bankrupted APHA to win the fight to kick Prefection out. however we can all name bulls and outfits that have represented bulls as stragiht hereford that weren't during the same timeframe that still to this day retain their papers, otherwise the diluter problem in the breed would be a non-existant issue. futhremore to give hop any credit on this issue is a bunch of BS considering 7777, 23D, primetime and summit all came about on his watch and retained their papers.

Prefection's owner and breeder was an easy target abate a costly one-- new guy, hobby breeder, didn't cover their tracks very well and weren't with it enough to use something that had a chance of not raising suspision right off the bat. however if you have the politics on your side like some of the aformentioned bulls there is a different result.

Tom, that is a very good summary of how I saw things happening at that time. Although I didn't know about the dilutor problems or the simmy in other Herefords at that time. When I read that paragraph in HW, the first thing that jumped out at me was how could the AHA (Hop) being taking credit for fighting this thing when it basically broke the APHA and the story I heard at the time was the AHA was pushing the APHA leadership to kick Perfection out....as it turns out the AHA was probably hiding the same problems going on in their circles. Perfections breeders and owners were not well connected with leadership in the APHA or AHA and that made them easy targets. The owners may have had personal wealth, but they had little power or influence with either association.
Just by a wild coincindence I happened to cross paths in Nebraska with a young seed salesman from KY who i had heard rumors about him having worked for Perfections breeders. I heard he had told a friend of mine, over some beers or something, that he knew Perfection was a crossbred and the reason blood tests didn't show him to be a cross bred was because the breeders had used Red Holsteins to add the size to their Herefords because differences in blood test types between herefords and holsteins wouldn't be detected by then used tests. The first chance I got, I confronted the kid about what he had said. He was shocked anyone even knew about the perfection case and refused to admit much to me other than he was involved with the Perfection breeders. He said something like 'you could put a gun to my head and put my hand on a stack of bibles and I would never admit it.' Its a small world and I think most of us who were around during the Perfection mess would have to chuckle at the version of the participants actions that is printed in the December HW.

[bookcliff]

if memory serves--- KLC + someone elses prefix or name Perfection

---Klip was one of the hard chargers to kick him out

---Perfection's sire was supposed to be Enforcer 107H

---Perfection's dam was supposed to be Vindicator bred (not totally sure on this one)

---when APHA requested that perfection's dam be blood typed they said she was dead

---APHA gave Perfection progeny a L prefix on the registration # that would say on the papers forever thru the generations afterwords (or it was proposed anyway)

----if I remember right Steve said the semen was around $75-100 per straw

[Deleted]

KLC RB3 PERFECTION, doesn't come up on a search....I guess the AHA isn't gonna list any crossbred bulls on its pedigree search! KLC stood for Keith's Log Cabin, which was owned by Dr. Williard Keith. I don't remember what teh RB3 stood for. Rattle and Snap FArms was a part owner. I think part of the settlement was Dr Keith had to surrender his membership and promise not to raise Herefords again. I don't think there are any L prefix cattle in the pedigree search anymore. I believe his dam was supposed to be an LS BEAU VICTOR 1 30 daughter, which would have made him eligible to be a carrier of hypotrichosis. The Enforcer 107H and LS BEAU VICTOR 1 30 cross was a good one for several matings, but it was quite a stretch to get that much size. There was a story that Klip was at some meeting about it and he started pounding on the table saying we couldn't have a crossbred bull in the Hereford registry. I don't think crossbred bulls should be called purebred, but I don't think there was anymore real "proof" on Perfection than there was on a whole slug of bulls of that era that the associations never pursued. I couldn't afford the semen at the time and I really wasn't that impressed with the Perfection stock, some of them looked very dairy. In those days people kidded me for asking for some hind quarter, now I'm told my cattle don't have enough.

[Deleted]

www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=232F50&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5B5A222423232025&9=5E505F

KLC R&S RAMBO (L22966571) was a show bull in Denver. Like a frame 8 or better...not much muscle expression and alot of frame.

[Deleted]

www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3E3F292A&2=232F50&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5B59582120582425&9=5C5E52

They linebred him.

[Deleted]

..."both the AHA and APHA took the pedigree to task in order to uphold the mission of the Association of protecting the genetic history and pedigree integrity of the herd book."

the diluter screen sure makes a handy little loophole.

"The legal battle and rule enforcement was about breed integrity and predictability, and the case is still being referenced today as it relates to product liability and association charter protection. The case was costly but set a precedence for product integrity that we still live by today."

read between the lines - the diluter screen takes all liability out of the equation and the association won't be involved in those costly cases protecting herd book integrity. call them a mutation, screen them out and go forward. much easier to deal with.

question for the geneticist - if you can't prove diluter gene or epilepsy defect came from another breed can you prove that they were mutations?

[jbeever]

I can prove that HY and IE are uniquely Hereford. Fact is, mutations happen. The idea that genetic mutations can only enter a breed through some type of "contamination" is a super-myth that I spend way too much time explaining to people who's opinions would remain unchanged anyway.

In the case of DL, its more difficult. The issue is this, because DL is not detectable in red-hided cattle, you cannot produce evidence to refute that DL may have existed in ancestral breeds that all red breeds were derived from. Thus, whether the presence of DL is something that has always been part of the breed is an open question.

However, the fact that the frequency of DL carriers among old-type Simmental, Fleckvieh and Gelbvieh cattle is quite high and there was active "breed complementation" happening in the early 80s for all the British breeds provides strong suggestion that DL is a mutation that occurred closer to the geographic origin of those breeds and was introduced into Herefords.

I don't need to press the "purity" button again, but the white-face trait is controlled by a different locus in Herefords and Simmental. We have some good ideas on what the gene in Herefords is, but it is not so clear in Simmental. If we had a DNA test for both, makes you wonder how many other lines of cattle that the "purists" in the crowd would have do get rid of because they have gone undetected until now and considered pure Hereford because they are registered.

[rockmillsherefords]

Dec 7, 2012 16:33:31 GMT -6 jbeever said:

I can prove that HY and IE are uniquely Hereford. Fact is, mutations happen. The idea that genetic mutations can only enter a breed through some type of "contamination" is a super-myth that I spend way too much time explaining to people who's opinions would remain unchanged anyway.

In the case of DL, its more difficult. The issue is this, because DL is not detectable in red-hided cattle, you cannot produce evidence to refute that DL may have existed in ancestral breeds that all red breeds were derived from. Thus, whether the presence of DL is something that has always been part of the breed is an open question.

However, the fact that the frequency of DL carriers among old-type Simmental, Fleckvieh and Gelbvieh cattle is quite high and there was active "breed complementation" happening in the early 80s for all the British breeds provides strong suggestion that DL is a mutation that occurred closer to the geographic origin of those breeds and was introduced into Herefords.

I don't need to press the "purity" button again, but the white-face trait is controlled by a different locus in Herefords and Simmental. We have some good ideas on what the gene in Herefords is, but it is not so clear in Simmental. If we had a DNA test for both, makes you wonder how many other lines of cattle that the "purists" in the crowd would have do get rid of because they have gone undetected until now and considered pure Hereford because they are registered.

That's a pretty big statement. Then, although it would be extremely rare that the same mutation would take place again, breeding two animals that are deemed free of a defect is no guarantee that the same mutation in one of thier calves couldn't happen again. True or not.

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2012 16:33:31 GMT -6 jbeever said:

I can prove that HY and IE are uniquely Hereford. Fact is, mutations happen. The idea that genetic mutations can only enter a breed through some type of "contamination" is a super-myth that I spend way too much time explaining to people who's opinions would remain unchanged anyway.

In the case of DL, its more difficult. The issue is this, because DL is not detectable in red-hided cattle, you cannot produce evidence to refute that DL may have existed in ancestral breeds that all red breeds were derived from. Thus, whether the presence of DL is something that has always been part of the breed is an open question.

However, the fact that the frequency of DL carriers among old-type Simmental, Fleckvieh and Gelbvieh cattle is quite high and there was active "breed complementation" happening in the early 80s for all the British breeds provides strong suggestion that DL is a mutation that occurred closer to the geographic origin of those breeds and was introduced into Herefords.

I don't need to press the "purity" button again, but the white-face trait is controlled by a different locus in Herefords and Simmental. We have some good ideas on what the gene in Herefords is, but it is not so clear in Simmental. If we had a DNA test for both, makes you wonder how many other lines of cattle that the "purists" in the crowd would have do get rid of because they have gone undetected until now and considered pure Hereford because they are registered.

that would be something...

well as a fellow hereford person i thank you for your time explaining what you have. i hope you can continue to find time to answer questions here and provide updates to these tests cause i think there is an audience here that want them and they are folks that are all striving for the same thing - irregardless of the spectrum of philosophy. also... i've never been under the assumption that a mutation or defect or whatever you want to call it can only be brought in thru contamination, but it can be and thats where my own personal struggles come from.

[jbeever]

The first statement wasn't directed specifically at you.

However, the top two reasons that the majority of adverse reactions to genetic defects are based on include, 1) it had to come from somewhere else, and 2) its caused by inbreeding. Both, of course, are generally incorrect. The only good evidence for "the somewhere else" justification are DL in Herefords and PHA in Shorthorns (came from the Maine Anjou influx). Inbreeding will show you the defect sooner, but doesn't have anything to do with the cause.

The most interesting example we have had experience with is NH in Angus. In this case we have DNA on the sire and dam of the first individual to have the mutation and neither of them have it. In other words, in 1990 there was only 1 individual in the entire Angus breed that had that specific mutation. In 2008, there were probably more than 200,000 world-wide.

[jbeever]

Depends on what you consider a guarantee. Given the natural mutation rate and the probability that a mutation would happen in the exact same place, its pretty much a guarantee that if you test and have good management, the offspring will never be positive for that mutation. I mention the management because in 99.9999% of all the times we have been accused of genotyping carriers out of negative parents, investigation reveals poor record keeping somewhere between the time the cow was bred to the time the sample was collected. The other times have been technical mistakes on our part.

Another interesting note is that although the same phenotype may exist in two different breeds, its caused by another mutation in the same gene. For instance, dilution in Simmental, etc.... and Charolais are two different mutations in the same gene about 20 base pairs apart. Makes you wonder why Charolais smokies are desirable and Simmi greys are good for a discount.

PHA exists in both Maine Anjou (Shorthorn) and Dexter and is caused by two different mutations that are about 35 base pairs apart in the same gene. TH is even more interesting, there are two different mutations in the same gene and in the same breed, Shorthorn, however, we do suspect that one of them came from Galloway.

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2012 18:01:29 GMT -6 jbeever said:

The first statement wasn't directed specifically at you.

However, the top two reasons that the majority of adverse reactions to genetic defects are based on include, 1) it had to come from somewhere else, and 2) its caused by inbreeding. Both, of course, are generally incorrect. The only good evidence for "the somewhere else" justification are DL in Herefords and PHA in Shorthorns (came from the Maine Anjou influx). Inbreeding will show you the defect sooner, but doesn't have anything to do with the cause.

The most interesting example we have had experience with is NH in Angus. In this case we have DNA on the sire and dam of the first individual to have the mutation and neither of them have it. In other words, in 1990 there was only 1 individual in the entire Angus breed that had that specific mutation. In 2008, there were probably more than 200,000 world-wide.

that is interesting... that brings all kinds of questions to my mind.

so did you have dna on the parents of the first epilepsy hereford?


a quote from another of your posts

"Makes you wonder why Charolais smokies are desirable and Simmi greys are good for a discount."

do you think this has anything to do with maybe a miscorrelational to a rat tail - or another way to say it... doesn't a simmi smokey look more like a mousey rat tail than a charolais smokey? i don't know, that's what i always thought the reason for discount or not.

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2012 16:33:31 GMT -6 jbeever said:

I can prove that HY and IE are uniquely Hereford. Fact is, mutations happen. The idea that genetic mutations can only enter a breed through some type of "contamination" is a super-myth that I spend way too much time explaining to people who's opinions would remain unchanged anyway.

In the case of DL, its more difficult. The issue is this, because DL is not detectable in red-hided cattle, you cannot produce evidence to refute that DL may have existed in ancestral breeds that all red breeds were derived from. Thus, whether the presence of DL is something that has always been part of the breed is an open question.

However, the fact that the frequency of DL carriers among old-type Simmental, Fleckvieh and Gelbvieh cattle is quite high and there was active "breed complementation" happening in the early 80s for all the British breeds provides strong suggestion that DL is a mutation that occurred closer to the geographic origin of those breeds and was introduced into Herefords.

I don't need to press the "purity" button again, but the white-face trait is controlled by a different locus in Herefords and Simmental. We have some good ideas on what the gene in Herefords is, but it is not so clear in Simmental. If we had a DNA test for both, makes you wonder how many other lines of cattle that the "purists" in the crowd would have do get rid of because they have gone undetected until now and considered pure Hereford because they are registered.

"I can prove that HY and IE are uniquely Hereford. Fact is, mutations happen. The idea that genetic mutations can only enter a breed through some type of "contamination" is a super-myth that I spend way too much time explaining to people who's opinions would remain unchanged anyway."

Has anyone written on this board that "genetic mutations can only enter a breed through some type of "contamination"? And do you know us all so well that you know we can't accept facts as facts?

Might be a good time for you to present your "proof" that IE in Herefords is caused by a "spontaneous mutation" that occured in an animal from the closed Miles City Line 1 herd.