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Post by hoekland on Dec 23, 2010 6:40:00 GMT -6
As most of you know I am a sceptical believer in linebreeding, in other words, it makes sense to me, but I don't believe in all the bullshit and trimmings that those who use linebreeding as a marketing tool are trying to feed me. Even after quite a few years of a lot of reading on the subject and talking to the so-called experts I still have more questions than answers.
For starters, the advice is always to find a bull worthy of being linebred and that bull must be as close to you ideal as possible. Even this is a lot easier said than done, after a few failures (that only showed up a few years later I am happy that I have identified that sire. Unfortunately he is now deceased and all the semen is privately owned, I still have 25 straws.
The next step according to the experts is to find a good set of cows (preferably linbred) to start the next generation.
Now I have a problem with this, I believe you shouldn't have all your eggs in one basket on the maternal side especially when you don't know yet what the future will hold in terms of defects that might show up
Then they say breed the best bullcalf to the best heifers and cull vigorously. Again I question this, all of us has had a bull in the past that surprised us because he bred better than himself, while others could never quite breed himself again. When is a bull good enough to sire the next linebred generation? Should you settle for a good bull out of a good cow although the bull himself isn't that special himself? Should you use more than one to see who is the better breeding bull? How do you allocate the females to each bull if you are going to use more than one halfbrother? etc
The experts say use a bull untill he outbreeds himself while other experts say you should turn generations as quickly as possible. I still don't have this answer
Hopefully this will start some discussion, I shall post more detail on what I am trying to do at a later stage, hopefully some of my questions will be answered by then.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2010 6:57:13 GMT -6
I think it is really just a matter of going ahead and doing it. You can mildly linebreed, bringing a new bull occassionally or intensely linebreed, closing off your herd to all outside blood. You have to have a good reason to linebreed in the first place. Linebreeding is a good way to clean out genetic defects or unwanted genetic traits. My father always believed in doing a little linebreeding just to check out the genetics...like doing some half sib matings between the progeny of a new bull that he had brought in. You'll do alot of culling and there will be alot of disappointments, but gradually you'll be marketing cattle that will breed true to their appearance. The best way to linebreed is to use what you have. That semen, on the bull you believe is superior and your current cow herd. Linebreeding should reward you financially. It can help cut costs, because you won't be bringing new stock in every time you run into a problem. When you run into a problem, you need to breed it out of your stock, that is genetic improvement and that is what we all should be trying to do.
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Post by hoekland on Dec 23, 2010 14:08:00 GMT -6
John, I have been at it for a few years now and only now can I say I have a son of the foundation sire that I truly believe is superior in most traits.
33% of my cowherd is daughters of the said bull and the 10 heifers I plan to retain this season are either sired by the said bull or by two of his sons (home raised) or atleast out of one of his daughters. The bulls I've used this year are also sons of the said bull so I am a few years down the road already, atleast long enough to have discontinued another sireline with the exception of one linebred heifer and she is in the showstring. Strangely enough I have a few very good calves from that sireline this season, although they are outcrosses, but they are the progeny of one of the bulls produced out of that line.
WHat I failed to mention in my initial post, of the linebred herds in existance today I cannot say I am overwhelmed by any of them, some have been carrying a fault (atleast in my opinion) for many generations, so much so that I am not convinced it can be corrected without going outside the line, others have selection criteria that don't relate to the real world (again in my opinion) and the rest probably never had the quality in the foundation stock or are only linebred in name, like many L1 herds
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2010 5:41:05 GMT -6
John, I have been at it for a few years now and only now can I say I have a son of the foundation sire that I truly believe is superior in most traits. 33% of my cowherd is daughters of the said bull and the 10 heifers I plan to retain this season are either sired by the said bull or by two of his sons (home raised) or atleast out of one of his daughters. The bulls I've used this year are also sons of the said bull so I am a few years down the road already, atleast long enough to have discontinued another sireline with the exception of one linebred heifer and she is in the showstring. Strangely enough I have a few very good calves from that sireline this season, although they are outcrosses, but they are the progeny of one of the bulls produced out of that line. WHat I failed to mention in my initial post, of the linebred herds in existance today I cannot say I am overwhelmed by any of them, some have been carrying a fault (atleast in my opinion) for many generations, so much so that I am not convinced it can be corrected without going outside the line, others have selection criteria that don't relate to the real world (again in my opinion) and the rest probably never had the quality in the foundation stock or are only linebred in name, like many L1 herds If you are too polite to mention the lines, maybe you could mention the "fault". Or do you mean the different lines each carry a different "fault"? |
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Post by hoekland on Dec 24, 2010 7:38:40 GMT -6
For starters, the Trask cattle have terrible eyes. The Lents herd has no guts, growth or doing ability and I see way too many bad udders. The L1s are often just linebred in name as many L1 breeders try to avoid closebreeding, you seldom see the same animal twice in the 5 generation pedigree.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2010 16:40:05 GMT -6
For starters, the Trask cattle have terrible eyes. The Lents herd has no guts, growth or doing ability and I see way too many bad udders. The L1s are often just linebred in name as many L1 breeders try to avoid closebreeding, you seldom see the same animal twice in the 5 generation pedigree. I think the trask cattle yuou are referring to may have Feltons in the pedigree and that could have brought in bad eyes. I differ with the Lents philosophy in his selection criteria. I questioned him on this at another site a few years ago and he wouldn't give me a solid selection plan. He responded something like...'how hard is it to pick the biggest one?' Well, I think you gotta have some kind of market based selection criteria. Maybe pedigree purity and visual appraisal can sell, but i don't think so. I tried breeding the Miles City Line 1's closely and ran into placental insufficiency...I was never able to get a coherant explanation. I did eventually get one bull that was the result of a half sib mating that didn't throw the problem, but then I had the chance to buy the King Dominos and never pursued that tight of Miles City matings again. I was assured by men who should know, that the placental insufficiency wasn't genetic...so I don't know what it was all about. I have wondered if that is why you rarely see anyone breed straight Miles City line 1's closely. As far as the King Dominos go, they show signs of really being something, but it is just hard to get very many of them of acceptable quality. I have been told that no one has ever put together more than about 30 of them....and I am beginning to wonder if anyone ever will. |
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Post by mrvictordomino on Dec 25, 2010 15:02:48 GMT -6
As most would know by now, I am into linebreeding. The following pedigree would show how we have used certain bulls and their progeny in our program www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A2621252125&9=5F5151This is just one example of the five different sire lines we have active at this time. To say we are linebreeding to a specific individual (which would be the true meaning of linebreeding) we are not. Our base foundation is RWJ Victor Domino which was linebred to MRF Vic Domino A14. The RWJ herd was closed in 1962 and the entire herd had been checked free of dwarfism so this herd had cattle with "clean pedigrees" as their foundation. I became interested in these cattle as a young person in 1975 the year the original herd was dispersed. My goal was to develop a herd of these bloodlines while others were out-crossing them. Years ago, I was always on the look out for the next new Victor herd bull to use in the herd. As the years passed there weren't many sources for me to chose from since everyone had different ideas and directions they were taking their cattle. As the years passed, and after several years of keeping the best heifers, not ever letting anyone pick through our females, we started to use our own top performing bulls. The progeny from these matings produced not only good quality bulls that I could use, but bulls that I could not find anywhere else since there are very few straight Victor Domino bulls being produced today. In the late 80's and early 90's we had three bulls that were used quite intensively. Anhinga Vic 69R 579, JMS Victor 2105 858, and BBL Victor R64 104. These three bulls had a tremendous amount of influence in the herd. The only other sire lines introduced since then has been BBL Victor 537 105, PW K120 Victor 369, And our son of RHF 218 JMS Victor 218 343. None have been added since 2005. With our current breeding herd of about 150-160 females, and the five active sire lines, I feel that there is enough genetics to allow me to continue with my breeding program and to develop new lines within the herd by making different matings of different sire/cow lines, even though in their background, they have common ancestors. As a result, our cattle are uniform in size, and are getting pretty predictable and consistent. Every year we have fewer heifers that fail to make the grade since they are becoming more consistent both in udder quality and production. The bull calves are consistent as well and are uniform despite the different sire lines represented. We have concentrated on calving ease and udder quality for many years, and ridding our self of any of the bad issues that give Hereford cattle a bad reputation. Please do not get the impression that our cattle are perfect, they are not, but with this system in place, we are making great improvement and by selecting known genetics we are able to avoid reintroducing any bad traits that are easily brought in from outside sources. The only negative thing I see is that it takes too long to put a program in place. Cattle breeding is a slow process, but multiplying them is quick and easy. In reference to some of your questions, I have noticed in a three generation pedigree you cannot find a bull more than once in some of the more popular L1 herds. I do not know why this is or why they would not want to do it. I know it is the same bloodline but it is not as tight as a bull showing up in my pedigrees two to four times. I would think that I would have tighten up the gene pool as to ensure more uniformity and predictability? My advise would be to select your foundation cattle that are related already (only if you have confidence in the source) since it may help you speed up the process in developing your program. If you have a bull in mind to start off with, use him and then select some top sons to replace him with. Let the selection and culling process begin!! DM |
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Post by col1domino on Dec 27, 2010 18:30:16 GMT -6
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Post by mrvictordomino on Dec 27, 2010 19:23:30 GMT -6
Interesting pedigree, are all of the heifers you purchased bred similar to this one? Could you post some pictures? DM |
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Post by Glenn on Dec 27, 2010 19:35:32 GMT -6
Very good thread. I hope you guys keep it up!
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Post by col1domino on Dec 28, 2010 21:20:58 GMT -6
Interesting pedigree, are all of the heifers you purchased bred similar to this one? Could you post some pictures? DM That heifer is probably the closest bred of them all but they are all fairly similar. I'll try to get some pictures of them sometime. This is one of my favorites of the group. Her maternal grandam "96893" is also the dam of the 03396 bull on the top side of the pedigree. Her dams sire was also the sire of CL 1 DOMINO 484. 03396 is best known as being the grand sire of CL 1 DOMINO 860 and CL 1 DOMINO 955. www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=3534&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A5A24202E23 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2010 16:49:53 GMT -6
i hope you have good luck linebreeding, knersie. someone needs to do it. i don't do a whole lot of linebreeding altho almost everything i put back in the herd are back to a couple cow families and sire lines. most of the linebreeding i do here is a side affect of convenience. i alway breed the replacement heifers in one group and every year there are half sib matings or better. the next two springs there will be some real tight breeding in the replacement heifer breeding group. kind of excited to get started on my new project this spring - flushing a 17 year old cow straight prince domino bred. the old girl is about the last of her kind and not perfect but close especially in terms of production, prolificy, and pedigree. all the females on the bottom side of her pedigree produced into late teens with no eye, cancer, prolapse problems. she is result of better than half sib matings - haven't figured exactly. she and a couple of her daughters will be the start - have semen on 6 old bulls never exposed to L1 or the breed fads. three of the old bulls are full sibs to animals in her pedigree and will acquire semen on two more bulls bred similair. i plan to try and generate sires from it for my current registered herd and slowly build the group. www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A272622272F&9=5B5150this is about as tight as i've ever gone but the next two springs there will be matings of almost the exact same pedigrees shown above |
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Post by Glenn on Dec 30, 2010 17:00:39 GMT -6
i hope you have good luck linebreeding, knersie. someone needs to do it. i don't do a whole lot of linebreeding altho almost everything i put back in the herd are back to a couple cow families and sire lines. most of the linebreeding i do here is a side affect of convenience. i alway breed the replacement heifers in one group and every year there are half sib matings or better. the next two springs there will be some real tight breeding in the replacement heifer breeding group. kind of excited to get started on my new project this spring - flushing a 17 year old cow straight prince domino bred. the old girl is about the last of her kind and not perfect but close especially in terms of production, prolificy, and pedigree. all the females on the bottom side of her pedigree produced into late teens with no eye, cancer, prolapse problems. she is result of better than half sib matings - haven't figured exactly. she and a couple of her daughters will be the start - have semen on 6 old bulls never exposed to L1 or the breed fads. three of the old bulls are full sibs to animals in her pedigree and will acquire semen on two more bulls bred similair. i plan to try and generate sires from it for my current registered herd and slowly build the group. www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A272622272F&9=5B5150this is about as tight as i've ever gone but the next two springs there will be matings of almost the exact same pedigrees shown above That makes a pretty pedigree. 21% IBC. |
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Post by Glenn on Dec 30, 2010 19:31:58 GMT -6
I ran the AHA tool on that and the IBC came back at 42%. That is pretty tight! |
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Post by hoekland on Dec 30, 2010 22:45:27 GMT -6
Ace it would be very interesting to see how prepotent that bull will be, if he breeds true to his BW EPD and can do that consistantly you're definately onto something!
Have you got a pic of the old girl? To me that isflushing should be done, use old proven cows of rare genetics and try and get th e most out of them, flushing virgin heifers and two year olds simply don't make sense to me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2010 6:12:18 GMT -6
i hope you have good luck linebreeding, knersie. someone needs to do it. i don't do a whole lot of linebreeding altho almost everything i put back in the herd are back to a couple cow families and sire lines. most of the linebreeding i do here is a side affect of convenience. i alway breed the replacement heifers in one group and every year there are half sib matings or better. the next two springs there will be some real tight breeding in the replacement heifer breeding group. kind of excited to get started on my new project this spring - flushing a 17 year old cow straight prince domino bred. the old girl is about the last of her kind and not perfect but close especially in terms of production, prolificy, and pedigree. all the females on the bottom side of her pedigree produced into late teens with no eye, cancer, prolapse problems. she is result of better than half sib matings - haven't figured exactly. she and a couple of her daughters will be the start - have semen on 6 old bulls never exposed to L1 or the breed fads. three of the old bulls are full sibs to animals in her pedigree and will acquire semen on two more bulls bred similair. i plan to try and generate sires from it for my current registered herd and slowly build the group. www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5B5A272622272F&9=5B5150this is about as tight as i've ever gone but the next two springs there will be matings of almost the exact same pedigrees shown above Could you post the pedigree on the old cow? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2010 11:43:32 GMT -6
right now i don't care to - it could potentially create some competition as i am trying to buy all his females.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2010 21:21:43 GMT -6
Yes, i understand. When you get the deal done, I would be interested in seeing the pedigree.
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Post by guffeygal on Jan 2, 2011 7:14:02 GMT -6
Hi to all the forum guests and participants. We have enjoyed the forum and sure hope that you all have a Great New Year.
We were reading on the line-breeding thread and thought that for what it is worth, we would show you one of our close bred cow's pedigree.
Reg. No.: 42393796
Sex: Cow
Birth Date: 03/25/2003
Reg. Status: Registered
Breeder: MICHAEL DEEWALL FAMILY
Curr. Owner: MICHAEL DEEWALL FAMILY
BAR NONE RED ARROW (19230478)
RED BEAR ADV 51 (19525873)
ADV MISS V57 (19239300)
Sire: ADV 84 (41037900)
DOUBLE ARROW (18969067)
LADY ADV 44 (19453164)
ADV MISS V57 (19239300)
Animal: D MISS ADVANCE 311 (42393796)
ADV 237 (19309960)
-O ADV 521 (19519971)
LADY ADV Y10 (18969037)
Dam: MISS BAR NONE 819 (41030357)
DOUBLE ARROW (18969067)
ADV LADY 235 (19309921)
LADY ADV H28 (18776758)
We tried to give you the link so that you could run it back, but can't seem to get that done. The line-breeding shows up more in a generation or two back. Jerry, could do it in a second.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2011 7:34:33 GMT -6
Hi to all the forum guests and participants. We have enjoyed the forum and sure hope that you all have a Great New Year. We were reading on the line-breeding thread and thought that for what it is worth, we would show you one of our close bred cow's pedigree. Reg. No.: 42393796 Sex: Cow Birth Date: 03/25/2003 Reg. Status: Registered Breeder: MICHAEL DEEWALL FAMILY Curr. Owner: MICHAEL DEEWALL FAMILY BAR NONE RED ARROW (19230478) RED BEAR ADV 51 (19525873) ADV MISS V57 (19239300) Sire: ADV 84 (41037900) DOUBLE ARROW (18969067) LADY ADV 44 (19453164) ADV MISS V57 (19239300) Animal: D MISS ADVANCE 311 (42393796) ADV 237 (19309960) -O ADV 521 (19519971) LADY ADV Y10 (18969037) Dam: MISS BAR NONE 819 (41030357) DOUBLE ARROW (18969067) ADV LADY 235 (19309921) LADY ADV H28 (18776758) We tried to give you the link so that you could run it back, but can't seem to get that done. The line-breeding shows up more in a generation or two back. Jerry, could do it in a second. Unique, linebred pedigree. How do you market your heifers? |
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Post by guffeygal on Jan 2, 2011 8:01:47 GMT -6
In the last two years, we have been able to acquire some lease land, so are in the process of increasing our numbers. last year and this year, we are keeping most all the heifers-except the really young ones, which our son-n--law has taken. We should have a nice set of heifer calves to sell next fall. Had we not decided to keep them, we could have sold this years set many times over.
In the past, those that we have sold, were a private treaty transaction.
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Post by George on Jan 2, 2011 9:28:31 GMT -6
Hi to all the forum guests and participants. We have enjoyed the forum and sure hope that you all have a Great New Year. We were reading on the line-breeding thread and thought that for what it is worth, we would show you one of our close bred cow's pedigree. Reg. No.: 42393796 Sex: Cow Birth Date: 03/25/2003 Reg. Status: Registered Breeder: MICHAEL DEEWALL FAMILY Curr. Owner: MICHAEL DEEWALL FAMILY BAR NONE RED ARROW (19230478) RED BEAR ADV 51 (19525873) ADV MISS V57 (19239300) Sire: ADV 84 (41037900) DOUBLE ARROW (18969067) LADY ADV 44 (19453164) ADV MISS V57 (19239300) Animal: D MISS ADVANCE 311 (42393796) ADV 237 (19309960) -O ADV 521 (19519971) LADY ADV Y10 (18969037) Dam: MISS BAR NONE 819 (41030357) DOUBLE ARROW (18969067) ADV LADY 235 (19309921) LADY ADV H28 (18776758) We tried to give you the link so that you could run it back, but can't seem to get that done. The line-breeding shows up more in a generation or two back. Jerry, could do it in a second. Here's the link to the pedigree on the AHA web-site: www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C582124202524&9=505A5EGeorge |
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Post by guffeygal on Jan 2, 2011 14:59:31 GMT -6
George, thank you!! How did you do that?? When we go to the AHA link and try to copy it, it won't work.
Jane
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Post by George on Jan 2, 2011 15:22:14 GMT -6
George, thank you!! How did you do that?? When we go to the AHA link and try to copy it, it won't work. Jane Jane, if you are signed in to the AHA site, it won't work to copy and paste it here. You have to go in as a guest and get the link that way for posting other places. George |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 10:06:13 GMT -6
As most of you know I am a sceptical believer in linebreeding, in other words, it makes sense to me, but I don't believe in all the bullshit and trimmings that those who use linebreeding as a marketing tool are trying to feed me. Even after quite a few years of a lot of reading on the subject and talking to the so-called experts I still have more questions than answers. For starters, the advice is always to find a bull worthy of being linebred and that bull must be as close to you ideal as possible. Even this is a lot easier said than done, after a few failures (that only showed up a few years later I am happy that I have identified that sire. Unfortunately he is now deceased and all the semen is privately owned, I still have 25 straws. The next step according to the experts is to find a good set of cows (preferably linbred) to start the next generation. Now I have a problem with this, I believe you shouldn't have all your eggs in one basket on the maternal side especially when you don't know yet what the future will hold in terms of defects that might show upThen they say breed the best bullcalf to the best heifers and cull vigorously. Again I question this, all of us has had a bull in the past that surprised us because he bred better than himself, while others could never quite breed himself again. When is a bull good enough to sire the next linebred generation? Should you settle for a good bull out of a good cow although the bull himself isn't that special himself? Should you use more than one to see who is the better breeding bull? How do you allocate the females to each bull if you are going to use more than one halfbrother? etcThe experts say use a bull untill he outbreeds himself while other experts say you should turn generations as quickly as possible. I still don't have this answerHopefully this will start some discussion, I shall post more detail on what I am trying to do at a later stage, hopefully some of my questions will be answered by then. |
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