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Post by Glenn on Sept 8, 2020 8:20:58 GMT -6
Searched all male carriers of MD. 119 listed carriers. LOL......
Burying our heads and not testing isn't gonna make the problem disappear.
For reference, the three main carriers have sired over 10,000 registered progeny. The main spreader of IE (HH Advance 9012Y) barely had 2000. This is gonna take some work to clean up.
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Post by timbernt on Sept 8, 2020 16:12:55 GMT -6
We will have another congenital defect after this one, then another after that, then another... since we do not have a close population anymore we have accumulated all the defects in the Shorthorn population, Simmentals, Maines, and Red Angus. Probably a really big reason to listen to the purity folks. I wonder if those of us that stayed with Horned genetics will be exempt from the fees?
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Post by Glenn on Sept 8, 2020 18:39:16 GMT -6
We will have another congenital defect after this one, then another after that, then another... since we do not have a close population anymore we have accumulated all the defects in the Shorthorn population, Simmentals, Maines, and Red Angus. Probably a really big reason to listen to the purity folks. I wonder if those of us that stayed with Horned genetics will be exempt from the fees? Negative Ghost Rider, the pattern is full......... |
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Post by soherf on Oct 9, 2020 7:26:20 GMT -6
We will have another congenital defect after this one, then another after that, then another... since we do not have a close population anymore we have accumulated all the defects in the Shorthorn population, Simmentals, Maines, and Red Angus. Probably a really big reason to listen to the purity folks. I wonder if those of us that stayed with Horned genetics will be exempt from the fees? Why would the "horned folks" be exempt from the fees? |
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Post by cflory on Oct 9, 2020 15:47:55 GMT -6
Because if they have horns they are not only genetically superior but also automatically genetically pure there carry 0 defects and should not have to pay for the polled side mistakes
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Post by timbernt on Oct 9, 2020 18:42:52 GMT -6
Clint, I guess you did get something out of last weekend!
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Post by strojanherefords on Oct 9, 2020 23:57:17 GMT -6
We will have another congenital defect after this one, then another after that, then another... since we do not have a close population anymore we have accumulated all the defects in the Shorthorn population, Simmentals, Maines, and Red Angus. Probably a really big reason to listen to the purity folks. I wonder if those of us that stayed with Horned genetics will be exempt from the fees? Why would the "horned folks" be exempt from the fees? If your cattle do not descend from a potential carrier, then is no chance that their calves would have the defect and a simple parentage test would be all that is needed. I am sick of having to pay $42 for a complete test, when an $15 paternity test will tell me everything I need to know. |
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Post by soherf on Oct 11, 2020 8:50:55 GMT -6
Horned cattle don't have defects? You better tell the association.
MSUD runs in some lines that never had any polled cattle infused into the line. So how is that possible?
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Post by lcc on Oct 11, 2020 11:06:31 GMT -6
Serious question- what are the current "terms and conditions of the American Hereford Association" when it comes to selling cattle with genetic defects/potential genetic defects?
Granted, this document appears to be from 2009 (https://hereford.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Terms-of-Sale-for-Auctions-2009.pdf), but it seems pretty clear:
"Seller will be responsible for informing buyers of all known information relative to genetic abnormalities."
Surely the fact that an animal being sold is a potential carrier would be "known information relative," right? Why do I keep seeing sale catalogs for this fall not "informing buyers" of potential carriers? The most egregious are sales marketed towards commercial buyers.
What responsibility do AHA representatives who are listed as sales staff in these sales have to ensure that AHA members are truly selling according to the "terms and conditions of the American Hereford Association?"
I am afraid this is going to turn into a big issue for anyone trying to sell Hereford bulls. There are undoubtedly thousands of commercial red/black baldy cows out there carrying MD. I think the AHA needs to come down hard on registered outfits selling carrier bulls to commercial cattlemen without any fair warning.
Wait for just a few MD calves in calf crops of Reg. Hereford bulls on baldy cows, and watch commercial cattlemen refuse to buy a hereford bull ever again. I can't say I'd blame them.
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Post by soherf on Oct 12, 2020 7:27:53 GMT -6
Icc, I think there are times when breeders don't know about potential defects and others when they absolutely know. It's hard to delineate between these two without knowing the breeders intention.
Let's say for example (which was an early rumor floating around when MSUD came to light) that you only needed to test polled bulls. If you were a horned breeder would you be testing your herd? Answer is pretty simply, no. Lots of breeders don't test their cow herds so they could have a very small percentage of females with defects and not know it. If they aren't constantly trolling the defect reports and tracing bloodlines how would a breeder know about potential problems? The AHA will not notify owners of the sire/dam of a positively ID'd carrier nor will they notify the owners of offspring or siblings of a known carrier.
I've seen many times when the papers are transferred after a sale and updated, that's when the new owner realizes their might be a problem. If they know what they are looking at when they read the pedigree.
Could some breeders be dumping potential problems into the commercial sector? Yes. The part that sets the AHA apart is that immediately when a defect comes up they release the info to the membership. Other breeds have had board members pack sales with problematic cattle knowing a new defect would be released after the sale was completed. I'm happy to say that isn't how the AHA handles these things.
If you want to talk about defects and commercial bull sales I'd have to say it doesn't seem to have dampened down Angus bull sales and they have 14 listed defects on their website. Herefords have listed 5 as of 10/12/2020. Could it cause a black eye on the breed? Possibly, but the speed with which people are testing is great. In just a few months they identified the originator of the MD defect.
Breeders do have the ability to run a report in MyHerd that should help ID any potential carriers in their herds. Sadly, this is only available to whole herd TPR breeders at this time. The report should be run often as new results are coming in almost daily and could change the status of animals in your herd.
When it comes to testing horned vs polled I'd say that you only find things where you look for them. I'm glad the AHA AI permit now (as of 9/1/2020) requires bulls to be tested for all 5 defects. This step should help give breeders enough information to make breeding decisions moving forward.
I'd guess that we will see the same requirements eventually for ET females and all breeding bulls.
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Post by strojanherefords on Oct 14, 2020 22:21:29 GMT -6
Icc, I think there are times when breeders don't know about potential defects and others when they absolutely know. It's hard to delineate between these two without knowing the breeders intention. Let's say for example (which was an early rumor floating around when MSUD came to light) that you only needed to test polled bulls. If you were a horned breeder would you be testing your herd? Answer is pretty simply, no. Lots of breeders don't test their cow herds so they could have a very small percentage of females with defects and not know it. If they aren't constantly trolling the defect reports and tracing bloodlines how would a breeder know about potential problems? The AHA will not notify owners of the sire/dam of a positively ID'd carrier nor will they notify the owners of offspring or siblings of a known carrier. I've seen many times when the papers are transferred after a sale and updated, that's when the new owner realizes their might be a problem. If they know what they are looking at when they read the pedigree. Could some breeders be dumping potential problems into the commercial sector? Yes. The part that sets the AHA apart is that immediately when a defect comes up they release the info to the membership. Other breeds have had board members pack sales with problematic cattle knowing a new defect would be released after the sale was completed. I'm happy to say that isn't how the AHA handles these things.If you want to talk about defects and commercial bull sales I'd have to say it doesn't seem to have dampened down Angus bull sales and they have 14 listed defects on their website. Herefords have listed 5 as of 10/12/2020. Could it cause a black eye on the breed? Possibly, but the speed with which people are testing is great. In just a few months they identified the originator of the MD defect. Breeders do have the ability to run a report in MyHerd that should help ID any potential carriers in their herds. Sadly, this is only available to whole herd TPR breeders at this time. The report should be run often as new results are coming in almost daily and could change the status of animals in your herd. When it comes to testing horned vs polled I'd say that you only find things where you look for them. I'm glad the AHA AI permit now (as of 9/1/2020) requires bulls to be tested for all 5 defects. This step should help give breeders enough information to make breeding decisions moving forward. I'd guess that we will see the same requirements eventually for ET females and all breeding bulls. Bull. I am having to restrain myself from using language that is in appropriate for the written page. We have had several sales out here within the last month that didn't identify the genetic defect status of potential carriers. If you look search back in the archives here you will see discussions about dilutor and IE cattle being dumped. How can a potential carrier report work if carriers like, 34Z and 249B, are still not flagged? Lastly, I am tired of the smart talk, I asked a simple question Why do breeders of clean cattle have to pay for defect testing when a simple parentage test would confirm that the animals in question are defect free by pedigree? |
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Post by cflory on Oct 15, 2020 4:57:53 GMT -6
I would be in favor of just a parentage test IF both sire and dam had tested negative for defects. This would cost a breeder upfront but then your all good, maybe. We didn't know we had it until we did, I know we can't test for defects that haven't shown up but I think it would be naive to think something else isn't out there ready to show up. Then what? retest everything? Just talking out loud and in circles.
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Post by timbernt on Oct 16, 2020 17:06:29 GMT -6
If there was ever a call to close your herd to outside genetics it is now. AI has been a great tool to level the playing field, but with so many congenital defects showing up due to alternate breeds coming into the mainstream Hereford genome it is a great time to linebreed and sit out adding those genetics. At least use old, proven bulls out of your tank. When all the confusion settles down any of the popular 2020 crop will still be available in some form.
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Post by soherf on Oct 19, 2020 4:20:17 GMT -6
I would be in favor of just a parentage test IF both sire and dam had tested negative for defects. This would cost a breeder upfront but then your all good, maybe. We didn't know we had it until we did, I know we can't test for defects that haven't shown up but I think it would be naive to think something else isn't out there ready to show up. Then what? retest everything? Just talking out loud and in circles. I've had this discussion with the folks at the AHA. They will not declare a calf "free by pedigree" of any current defects and I'd guess it will be that way moving forward in time also. |
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Post by rosefield on Oct 19, 2020 8:11:38 GMT -6
I would be in favor of just a parentage test IF both sire and dam had tested negative for defects. This would cost a breeder upfront but then your all good, maybe. We didn't know we had it until we did, I know we can't test for defects that haven't shown up but I think it would be naive to think something else isn't out there ready to show up. Then what? retest everything? Just talking out loud and in circles. I've had this discussion with the folks at the AHA. They will not declare a calf "free by pedigree" of any current defects and I'd guess it will be that way moving forward in time also. With many breed associations, once the parents are tested to be free, then resulting offspring should also be free. If an association is still requiring testing it is because doing so is another source of revenue for them. But also some associations do require bulls to be tested for certain defects so that breeders know they are breeding to a "defect free" animal. This would be especially true if a bull was being used via Artificial Insemination! |
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Post by strojanherefords on Oct 19, 2020 15:31:46 GMT -6
It is very suspicious that no prominent pedigree error since Harland has been found.
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Post by soherf on Oct 20, 2020 8:31:44 GMT -6
It is very suspicious that no prominent pedigree error since Harland has been found. Please explain? I've helped dozen of pedigree errors get corrected for breeders in the last few months. One that I stumbled upon for a client just this weekend is a total trainwreck. The herdsman is having to recheck tattoos and resubmit DNA on the entire herd. These were not large herds with large amounts of progeny however. |
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Post by Glenn on Oct 20, 2020 10:11:45 GMT -6
PROMINENT.....
LOL seems evident what he meant...
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Post by soherf on Oct 20, 2020 11:10:27 GMT -6
PROMINENT..... LOL seems evident what he meant... I understand the word definition but was looking for an example or maybe more about what he might have been hinting at. Going backwards in a pedigree and opening closets will expose skeletons. No one kept perfect records, bulls jump fences and cows can steal calves. |
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Post by cflory on Oct 21, 2020 8:28:15 GMT -6
One I can think of was Tested 651x mother. Ellis has her down as a 606 daughter and years later she was dna tested for something else and the parents test was flagged. They found the correct sire and Ellis was open about it. That’s how it should work for the breeder and association. Of course in this case no one was really trying to hide it. Again they didn’t know until they did
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Post by strojanherefords on Oct 23, 2020 11:29:15 GMT -6
PROMINENT..... LOL seems evident what he meant... I understand the word definition but was looking for an example or maybe more about what he might have been hinting at. Going backwards in a pedigree and opening closets will expose skeletons. No one kept perfect records, bulls jump fences and cows can steal calves. Exactly. Without DNA testing, pedigree errors are a given. On studies of dairies, there is an average 15%-20% rate of sire misidentification. link It is statistically impossible that all those errors could have been corrected. When I was in New Zealand, I had a personal discussion with one of the guys who runs the ABRI and it seems that the AHA is using two sets of pedigrees. One for the registrations and one for the genomically enhanced EPDs. |
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Post by mrvictordomino on Oct 26, 2020 7:33:29 GMT -6
If there was ever a call to close your herd to outside genetics it is now. AI has been a great tool to level the playing field, but with so many congenital defects showing up due to alternate breeds coming into the mainstream Hereford genome it is a great time to linebreed and sit out adding those genetics. At least use old, proven bulls out of your tank. When all the confusion settles down any of the popular 2020 crop will still be available in some form. Exactly.... have been for decades |
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Post by soherf on Oct 27, 2020 7:14:37 GMT -6
Anyone that's tracking the carrier counts think it's odd that the number of MDC is closing in on the MSUDC? The number of MSUDC should be much larger (than MDC) and the defect has been known for a longer time.
Any thoughts on why the MD defect was much quicker to rise past 900 MDC or why breeders were quicker to test for it?
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Post by jjbcattleco on Oct 28, 2020 9:10:04 GMT -6
Anyone that's tracking the carrier counts think it's odd that the number of MDC is closing in on the MSUDC? The number of MSUDC should be much larger (than MDC) and the defect has been known for a longer time. Any thoughts on why the MD defect was much quicker to rise past 900 MDC or why breeders were quicker to test for it? Because there are more cattle that go back to the source cattle for MD than MSUD? |
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Post by soherf on Oct 29, 2020 7:24:41 GMT -6
Anyone that's tracking the carrier counts think it's odd that the number of MDC is closing in on the MSUDC? The number of MSUDC should be much larger (than MDC) and the defect has been known for a longer time. Any thoughts on why the MD defect was much quicker to rise past 900 MDC or why breeders were quicker to test for it? Because there are more cattle that go back to the source cattle for MD than MSUD? Not from my understanding but I could be wrong. The one good thing about MD is that they quickly and clearly ID'd the source of the mutation and advised testing accordingly. MSUD on the other hand hasn't had the original animal clearly ID'd (to my knowledge) and some people only know it's in their herd when they have an animal that comes back MSUDC. If you have an ancestor test as MSUDC the AHA will not notify owners of progeny that they should be testing their calves. The online report in MyHerd can search for potential carriers in the background of your herd if you are Whole Herd TPR but not if you are a pedigree member. |
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