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Post by hoekland on May 3, 2016 0:30:36 GMT -6
I don't think it should be assumed that any "cross breeding", accidental or otherwise, occurred only in North America...... Certainly not! It's funny how things has changed, 30 years ago the UK was the studfarm of the world, now it seems the USA is. Sadly though, except for Traditional herefords (and its a fickle bunch that apparently don't want to sell semen to us lesser mortals)the UK can't even be the studfarm for the Isle of Wight nowadays. Somehow in this last generation the UK Stockmen forgot what sound legs and feet looks like.
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 3, 2016 2:56:47 GMT -6
A quote from Dr Beever I think a relevant to this thread and purity. Yes so people say - and yet the deleterious genes, such as hypotrichosis, seem to skip down the generations without any problems! The difficulty that the Food Standard Agency scientists had was that the DNA was SO different, not just a little bit different, so much so that they said it was like a different breed. I wonder if they have tried looking at Native Angus yet - haven't heard about that. I have tried to analyse my feelings about this. On one hand you could argue that a breed ought to be pure otherwise it's just a type or a colour - in our case a beef animal which is red with a white head. On the other hand you can argue that a breed has to make genetic progress for economic reasons if we are talking about a farmer or rancher's livelihood. It's also the case that anyone can make a mistake. However it's the thought that there might be deliberate fraud that worries me. I have no issues with a crossbred animal - it will do its job just as well, if not better sometimes, than a purebred one. It's where large amounts of money change hands, for a "purebred" animal which isn't, that makes me angry.
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 3, 2016 3:05:56 GMT -6
I don't think it should be assumed that any "cross breeding", accidental or otherwise, occurred only in North America...... Certainly not! It's funny how things has changed, 30 years ago the UK was the studfarm of the world, now it seems the USA is. Sadly though, except for Traditional herefords (and its a fickle bunch that apparently don't want to sell semen to us lesser mortals)the UK can't even be the studfarm for the Isle of Wight nowadays. Somehow in this last generation the UK Stockmen forgot what sound legs and feet looks like. Hopefully if they become less rare more people will begin to select away from animals with bad feet. Certainly we haven't had any real problems with ours so far, but they are mainly Llandinabo breeding and Peter Symonds told me he had really tried to address that problem. Our bull has great feet at 5 years old he has never needed trimming. I don't know what the feet situation is in the modern Hereford, except as I have said before there is a lot of overfeeding going on which doesn't help. It is a real shame you can't get semen - the old bull semen does not pass the stringent veterinary regulations for export. However there is some which has been sent abroad. We would love to take semen and flush cows but it is so expensive and export is so complicated. Maybe one day...
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Post by hoekland on May 3, 2016 6:49:40 GMT -6
Certainly not! It's funny how things has changed, 30 years ago the UK was the studfarm of the world, now it seems the USA is. Sadly though, except for Traditional herefords (and its a fickle bunch that apparently don't want to sell semen to us lesser mortals)the UK can't even be the studfarm for the Isle of Wight nowadays. Somehow in this last generation the UK Stockmen forgot what sound legs and feet looks like. Hopefully if they become less rare more people will begin to select away from animals with bad feet. Certainly we haven't had any real problems with ours so far, but they are mainly Llandinabo breeding and Peter Symonds told me he had really tried to address that problem. Our bull has great feet at 5 years old he has never needed trimming. I don't know what the feet situation is in the modern Hereford, except as I have said before there is a lot of overfeeding going on which doesn't help. It is a real shame you can't get semen - the old bull semen does not pass the stringent veterinary regulations for export. However there is some which has been sent abroad. We would love to take semen and flush cows but it is so expensive and export is so complicated. Maybe one day... My reference was to the "modern champions" Could you try and find out for me which OP semen is available for export?
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 3, 2016 8:58:03 GMT -6
Haha I see. Try looking up the Traditional Hereford Breeders' Club website and click on "Semen Catalogue". Sarah Cook has recently updated it and it says which are available for export I think. I know Llandinabo Zest is available - I never saw him but they say he was a big bull, weighing over a ton. He is our bull's grandsire.
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Post by strojanherefords on May 3, 2016 12:10:06 GMT -6
A quote from Dr Beever I think a relevant to this thread and purity. Yes so people say - and yet the deleterious genes, such as hypotrichosis, seem to skip down the generations without any problems! The difficulty that the Food Standard Agency scientists had was that the DNA was SO different, not just a little bit different, so much so that they said it was like a different breed. I wonder if they have tried looking at Native Angus yet - haven't heard about that. I have tried to analyse my feelings about this. On one hand you could argue that a breed ought to be pure otherwise it's just a type or a colour - in our case a beef animal which is red with a white head. On the other hand you can argue that a breed has to make genetic progress for economic reasons if we are talking about a farmer or rancher's livelihood. It's also the case that anyone can make a mistake. However it's the thought that there might be deliberate fraud that worries me. I have no issues with a crossbred animal - it will do its job just as well, if not better sometimes, than a purebred one. It's where large amounts of money change hands, for a "purebred" animal which isn't, that makes me angry. Well it is not surprising that the DNA of Traditional Herefords would be very different than the DNA of American, Australian, or Canadian Herefords. The North American Hereford separated from the traditional Hereford 130 years ago. Additionally, almost half of the genes in Line One cattle go back to one cow and two bulls imported by Gudgell and Simpson. For Canadian Herefords I would estimate a quarter of there genes go back to the same three animals. I don't know the history of Herefords in Australia but I would suspect the story would be similar.
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 3, 2016 17:13:34 GMT -6
That's very interesting. I would like to know more about the development of the Hereford in N America. What do you mean when you say "separated 130 years ago"? Can you recommend a book that I could read about it?
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Post by shumakerherefords on May 3, 2016 19:08:43 GMT -6
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Post by timbernt on May 3, 2016 20:32:22 GMT -6
Actually, there was a large infusion of English Hereford herd sires into Canada in the 50's and 60's that is in the background in a lot of herds. LRD had Weston Bushman, Wetmore Halflight, Wenlock Beamish, and several others. Kallal (the herd that produced 157K) had a lot of Westhide Krishnagar blood. Bar Pipe had a lot of Vern Robert influence. There were a number of others including Wetmore Handyman, Atok Tiberius, and Haven Nobility. Westhide Governor was brought to the US by Wally Johnson and his influence continues in the Mark Donalds thru Selkirk Governor 6th. Personally, I am looking forward to seeing how much we have strayed from our beginnings. I hope this exercise gives us a true genetic profile of our breed in 2016. I am not advocating a return to pure English genetics, I don't think they will be competitive in todays agriculture. However, I would like to have a genetic profile to provide a road map of what different strains may contain. One concern I have is what genetic defects may have been introduced with outside blood. Another question I have is how much tenderness has been impacted.
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 4, 2016 9:31:50 GMT -6
Thank you! Timbernt, I hope that everyone on here will look at this research in the same way as you - as a fascinating scientific study, a useful genetic tool for us, and not as a threat. As you say you cannot go back, and you wouldn't want to, but hopefully we can go forward with our cattle, and if it helps to understand where our cattle came from that is surely knowledge worth having!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 10:05:23 GMT -6
I have Birth of a Breed in my bookshelf actually. Orville was a great friend of the family and my dad's professional mentor having worked for/with him at both APHA and National Pork Producers so feel lucky and blessed we got to know and be around such a great man. We had some of Orville's last cows on our place before he got out of it entirely. The 1 thing I will always remember is the time Orville experimented with crossing some of his hereford cows AI with a senepol bull. Probably some of the ugliest calves I've seen, they had big floppy ears and very slick/short coat of hair which was not a great combination for raising them in an environment that can have some cold and harsh winter conditions. That little experiment thankfully was very short lived.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on May 4, 2016 11:46:37 GMT -6
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Post by strojanherefords on May 4, 2016 12:47:11 GMT -6
That's very interesting. I would like to know more about the development of the Hereford in N America. What do you mean when you say "separated 130 years ago"? Can you recommend a book that I could read about it? American Herefords descend from relatively few cattle imported from England in the early 1880's. The Herd book was only established in 1846, so it would be no surprise that Herefords that stayed in England would inherent different genes from the foundation stock than the Herefords in America would. The Hereford in America tells the story well.
Tim, I am well aware of the influence of those later English importations. Our top cow families trace back to descendants of Wenlock Beamish which my grandfather purchased from Little Red Deer.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2016 19:16:37 GMT -6
.......
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Post by btlrupert on May 8, 2016 19:19:52 GMT -6
I'm proud to say the Plato Rupert cattle I work with so far has not shown any genetic abnormality...
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Post by strojanherefords on May 8, 2016 23:48:57 GMT -6
Every papered calf, born on our ranch, goes back to cows that have been in the family since at least 1968. Apparently, Cotmore hasn't even calved out home raised heifers yet. It greatly annoys me that an outfit that has not been in operation for five years is looking down there nose at me because they think I don't raise authentic enough Hereford cattle.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2016 1:38:49 GMT -6
.....
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Post by Glenn on May 9, 2016 5:51:11 GMT -6
Hell hath no fury like a vested interest masquerading as a moral principle........
Go sell your shit somewhere else......
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Post by btlrupert on May 9, 2016 7:17:22 GMT -6
Don't know what's behind that post Glen but is must have been good!! LOL on Monday...
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Post by George on May 9, 2016 9:37:59 GMT -6
Don't know what's behind that post Glen but is must have been good!! LOL on Monday... I'm guessing that Peter Hall showed up with his spiel - and Glenn gave him the boot. And I missed the posts!
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Post by George on May 9, 2016 9:51:39 GMT -6
Every papered calf, born on our ranch, goes back to cows that have been in the family since at least 1968. Apparently, Cotmore hasn't even calved out home raised heifers yet. It greatly annoys me that an outfit that has not been in operation for five years is looking down there nose at me because they think I don't raise authentic enough Hereford cattle. I agree! Peter Hall's own pedigree means nothing as far as his ability as a cattle breeder. Let him actually OWN those cattle for 10-15 years and make the selection decisions for 3 generations or more, then he might have some basis of credibility when he spouts off with his spiel. Today he is just a carnival barker trying to lure suckers into the tent!
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2016 10:01:55 GMT -6
Don't know what's behind that post Glen but is must have been good!! LOL on Monday... I'm guessing that Peter Hall showed up with his spiel - and Glenn gave him the boot. And I missed the posts! That's exactly what happened. I saw the post late last night, kudos to Glenn for cleaning that up. I'm sure it will find its way to CT where he basically dug up a bunch of Hereford topics that hadn't been active for over a decade just so he could stir the pot with that stuff.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on May 9, 2016 17:21:01 GMT -6
Don't know what's behind that post Glen but is must have been good!! LOL on Monday... I'm guessing that Peter Hall showed up with his spiel - and Glenn gave him the boot. And I missed the posts! That was an interesting post in HT!
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Post by hoekland on May 9, 2016 21:35:17 GMT -6
If he had all his facts straight I could have agreed with him on a point or two.
To be perfectly honest I'm getting fed up with every new breeder starting a fight (a silent one at it!) with the WHO or their respective Breeders Societies when they have no clue what is going on behind the scenes. In most cases said societies spent a lot more time on breeders's issues than on breed issues.
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 10, 2016 3:02:44 GMT -6
Drat. Missed it!
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