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Post by George on Apr 30, 2016 16:26:04 GMT -6
From Cotmore, who is dredging up a lot of old threads and "spamming" them:
Could be a troll!
Has anyone here heard of this "new" group?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 20:13:12 GMT -6
I haven't checked CT for several days till you brought this up but damn I see he conveinently dug up 6 old Hereford threads to bash on. You're spot on calling him a troll, he just signed up on CT today and the last replies on those threads were in 2006, 2006, 2012, 2010, 2010, and 2014 and no coincidence those are the only 6 posts he has made were just to bash on Herefords. Will be interesting to see how long he lasts but this is exactly why I keep the mindset that instead of bashing on our own breed and fellow Hereford breeders we need to show a united front that we see a lot of good in the Hereford breed and not dwell so much on the negatives that are not the norm for the breed. That negative stuff gives guys like this just the ammo he needs to post GARBAGE like he did.
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Post by timbernt on Apr 30, 2016 20:36:49 GMT -6
As much as I recognize that foreign genetics have entered the breed, I think it would be a mistake to formally flagellate ourselves for it. One of the few times Huffhines and Ward showed intelligence is requiring DNA on all sires, so no more adulteration should occur. It is a habit of mine to try to correlate what I have heard about what non-traditional blood is present in different lines with what I see when those bulls are used. I have seen about as many crossbred cattle as anyone and I think I am capable of doing a decent job of figuring out the parent breeds. My conclusion is there is a small percentage of non-Hereford genetics in every registered Hereford animal in North America. Where others see pigment, often I see an error in registration. There are a number of other phenotype markers that indicate non-traditional genotype. Anyone who thinks the egg will only be on someone elses face will probably be quite surprised if this project proceeds. Having said all that, it disgusts me that most Hereford breeders today have so little background in the breed they don't even recognize when a Hereford is not a Hereford.
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Post by timbernt on Apr 30, 2016 20:44:27 GMT -6
As far as a "troll" trying to use DNA tests to bash Herefords, he is an idiot to use this approach. No matter what errors may have occurred in the past with Herefords, they are still the least adulterated of any breed of consequence.
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Post by George on Apr 30, 2016 22:09:27 GMT -6
I imagine the existence of a DNA test that would prove the (lack of) "purity" would make a number of Hereford breeders pucker up a bit!
You can bet the "establishment" will make every effort to discredit the accuracy of such a test.
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Post by larso on Apr 30, 2016 22:43:01 GMT -6
What a DH!! all breeds were at some stage crossed with something else to breed what they are today. He would be better off spending his time studying how the breed was developed in the 1st place and how those very knowledgeable stockmen and breeders stablelized the breed.
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Post by hoekland on May 1, 2016 3:44:20 GMT -6
I imagine the existence of a DNA test that would prove the (lack of) "purity" would make a number of Hereford breeders pucker up a bit! You can bet the "establishment" will make every effort to discredit the accuracy of such a test. They are not even close to having that test. The reason being herefords developed in such distinct families that the markers can't be used universally across the breed. |
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Post by elkwc on May 1, 2016 7:58:28 GMT -6
I imagine the existence of a DNA test that would prove the (lack of) "purity" would make a number of Hereford breeders pucker up a bit! You can bet the "establishment" will make every effort to discredit the accuracy of such a test. George from what I've been told over the last 1-2 years by a few and one who was close to the situation I think some would be surprised at what bloodlines/cattle would show up impure. In many of these cases the AHA knew and chose to ignore it unless something developed and they couldn't which has happened in a few cases. Like another poster mentioned a person who has studied the breed can spot many if not most of those with impurities. I feel such a test could be developed but it will always be disputed if it is by those who have used those lines. In the end I have decided to avoid certain lines which has severely limited my choice of polled cattle and to move on. |
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 1, 2016 19:15:20 GMT -6
Perhaps I can help here. Cotmore has imported into Australia quite a large number of embryos from "Traditional" or "Original Population" Herefords from the UK. The gentleman concerned is a descendant of a family which bred Cotmore, a famous Hereford bull in the 1800s and emigrated to Australia. There are a number of Australian herds which still contain OP Herefords and some of these are from female families now extinct in UK, and we would like to know how many there are in existence in other parts of the world too. The OP Hereford is classed by the Rare Breed Survival Trust in UK as a Category 5 breed ie less than 1500 animals remaining. If we are to prevent the population becoming too inbred we need to identify bloodlines which could expand the gene pool, hence our interest in DNA testing.
The differences between the DNA of OP Herefords and modern Herefords came to light in UK during the horsemeat scandal, when several large retailers were trying to sell horsemeat as beef. The Food Standard Agency in UK started large scale testing of meat to identify differences between breeds so that say Angus beef could not be sold as Hereford or Charolais etc. They had problems with Hereford beef because in amongst the samples of beef from Hereford cattle, there was some from Traditional Herefords and the DNA was found to be different. This started an investigation which was important to us because we were in danger of not being allowed to sell our beef as "Hereford", which would have been very upsetting! The differences between OP and modern Hereford DNA are considerable but although the Australian gentleman is taking a rather extreme view, in the UK we just want to use it as a tool to enable us to expand our gene pool in the future. I think I can speak for all the British Traditional Hereford breeders when I say that we appreciate the value of all types of Hereford and have no wish to upset anyone! However the fact remains that when the DNA work is published (and it will be soon) it may be quite surprising to some people. As a scientist, it isn't any surprise to me really.
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Post by elkwc on May 1, 2016 19:42:04 GMT -6
Perhaps I can help here. Cotmore has imported into Australia quite a large number of embryos from "Traditional" or "Original Population" Herefords from the UK. The gentleman concerned is a descendant of a family which bred Cotmore, a famous Hereford bull in the 1800s and emigrated to Australia. There are a number of Australian herds which still contain OP Herefords and some of these are from female families now extinct in UK, and we would like to know how many there are in existence in other parts of the world too. The OP Hereford is classed by the Rare Breed Survival Trust in UK as a Category 5 breed ie less than 1500 animals remaining. If we are to prevent the population becoming too inbred we need to identify bloodlines which could expand the gene pool, hence our interest in DNA testing. The differences between the DNA of OP Herefords and modern Herefords came to light in UK during the horsemeat scandal, when several large retailers were trying to sell horsemeat as beef. The Food Standard Agency in UK started large scale testing of meat to identify differences between breeds so that say Angus beef could not be sold as Hereford or Charolais etc. They had problems with Hereford beef because in amongst the samples of beef from Hereford cattle, there was some from Traditional Herefords and the DNA was found to be different. This started an investigation which was important to us because we were in danger of not being allowed to sell our beef as "Hereford", which would have been very upsetting! The differences between OP and modern Hereford DNA are considerable but although the Australian gentleman is taking a rather extreme view, in the UK we just want to use it as a tool to enable us to expand our gene pool in the future. I think I can speak for all the British Traditional Hereford breeders when I say that we appreciate the value of all types of Hereford and have no wish to upset anyone! However the fact remains that when the DNA work is published (and it will be soon) it may be quite surprising to some people. As a scientist, it isn't any surprise to me really. Thanks for the information. Please keep us informed on any developments. I feel that a test like that might face some resistance over here. I'm sure there was some outside influence through the years due to open range and management practices. But then the intentional crosses that have been made through the years will also enter in. I would expect a wide variance/difference in the DNA here. The late 70's into the 90's I've been told added several new crosses on top of the old that might of created the polled Hereford and accidental crosses. It will be interesting if the test is ever used over here or not. |
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Post by btlrupert on May 1, 2016 19:48:04 GMT -6
According to my great uncle who served under General Patton.. " when I left Germany I did not leave a fence intact"... He was a tank driver. Point being... All breeds have some level of impurity. How do we back up? Don't think so. I as well avoid many lines but not because of impurity.. Because of inferiority!
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 1, 2016 20:06:56 GMT -6
According to my great uncle who served under General Patton.. " when I left Germany I did not leave a fence intact"... He was a tank driver. Point being... All breeds have some level of impurity. How do we back up? Don't think so. I as well avoid many lines but not because of impurity.. Because of inferiority! Absolutely! And I would like to think that even in a rare population we are doing the same. I don't want people to think that we are breeding an anachronism, a museum piece or breeding inferior animals just because they are "pure". From what I have seen of the Traditional herd in UK, they are pretty good cattle generally, just not quite as big as the "modern" ones at maturity. |
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Post by elkwc on May 1, 2016 20:23:13 GMT -6
According to my great uncle who served under General Patton.. " when I left Germany I did not leave a fence intact"... He was a tank driver. Point being... All breeds have some level of impurity. How do we back up? Don't think so. I as well avoid many lines but not because of impurity.. Because of inferiority! I avoid them for both reasons. I had an experience with the Simmies when I was young and don't care to have any of their influence in my herd period. Also don't need the other issues that come along with Titan and some of the others. |
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Post by btlrupert on May 1, 2016 20:52:13 GMT -6
We had Gelbvieh cattle and told my great uncle they were "full bloods".. Thus his comment.been 20 years ago but never forgot it. He was darn proud of his service! Great man!
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Post by Sudsy on May 2, 2016 0:34:49 GMT -6
From Cotmore, who is dredging up a lot of old threads and "spamming" them: Could be a troll! Has anyone here heard of this "new" group? George, No Troll. I think this persons' name could quite possibly be, Peter Hall, a current nominee for the board of Herefords Australia, from the horn side of the breed. I couldn't quite help but notice Larso may have put his foot in his mouth. The last time he took his foot out was to change feet. lol. |
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Post by larso on May 2, 2016 2:28:39 GMT -6
Woops!!
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Post by Sudsy on May 2, 2016 3:13:16 GMT -6
This group is certainly alive and prospering in Australia.
I am led to believe Peters family can trace their history with herefords back to 1780, or thereabouts, making it the oldest Hereford herd in the world.
Currently, there is a very concerted demand/push for grass finished/fed beef.
In order to satisfy this demand, there is a corresponding demand/push for smaller frame cattle.
Possibly, and only possibly, this could be one of the driving factors behind Peters' 'call to arms'.
I hope to visit Peters' herd in the not too distant future.
Hope to take Larso, may have to gaffer tape his mouth, lol.
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Post by George on May 2, 2016 7:25:43 GMT -6
After reading a number of books and coming to the conclusion that I just couldn't "buy" the mass mutation scenario that led to the establishment of POLLED Herefords, I have had to accept that the Herefords that I own are not "pure"...according to the standard that this guy...and others...set.
Curiosity on my part would welcome a DNA test where the percentage of "other than Hereford" genes could be determined. It could settle all the rumors and speculation.
No doubt this revelation on my part has made the thought of turning Herefords black far more palatable.
Like Jay(elkwc) has stated here before, I fail to understand the logic of those who denigrate the Black Hereford breeders, yet will use bulls who trace back to Titan 23D, sometimes multiple times.
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Post by Glenn on May 2, 2016 8:30:26 GMT -6
I'm with whoever said it above, at least now with DNA required on walking and AI sires, it will be much harder to sneak the snakes into the woodpile.
I think some (most) of you should study up on what DNA can and can't determine.
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Post by jayh on May 2, 2016 12:40:26 GMT -6
I am assuming by U.S. members he means Jim Lents, and a few others that have stayed the course with the Anxietys?
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 2, 2016 15:33:01 GMT -6
I am assuming by U.S. members he means Jim Lents, and a few others that have stayed the course with the Anxietys? I think that is correct but there may be others. |
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Post by tartancowgirl on May 2, 2016 15:38:22 GMT -6
I don't think it should be assumed that any "cross breeding", accidental or otherwise, occurred only in North America......
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Post by rodeohunter on May 2, 2016 20:19:35 GMT -6
Mine are all crossbreed then. Msu revolution 4r , feltons 242 ...
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Post by bookcliff on May 2, 2016 20:53:27 GMT -6
after a while, it don't make much beating a dead horse.
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Post by rockmillsherefords on May 2, 2016 21:11:57 GMT -6
A quote from Dr Beever I think a relevant to this thread and purity.
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