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Post by hoekland on Sept 1, 2015 2:52:44 GMT -6
The title of the thread is more PC than the actual thread...
I was reminded again of this practise where you feed really shitty calves into bulls by a recent thread, but it is something I see too often. Too often you'll hear a breeder say don't pay too much attention to how the sale string looks like now as they'll change a lot closer to the sale (with more feed into them) While I don't doubt all you'll see is the expression of the genetic potential for conformation or growth I believe we are doing the breed (which is supposedly a maternal breed or a good alround beef breed) a disservice by feeding poor looking weaners, or for that matter calves that looked poor at any other stage of their life, into breeding stock, more so into breeding bulls.
I think it is time that all of us that consider ourselves breeders take responsibility by taking note of all calves's development stages and culling accordingly. Add to that that we all need to study our breed's standards of excellence again and take a close look at breed characteristics. I am not saying that a breed don't evolve over time, but if you have a calf with big ears you must know that is not a Hereford trait and regardless of how sure you are of the pedigree, do the right thing and cull that calf rather than propagating a known simmental trait (even if you are as sure as you can be there are no cracks in the pedigree)
The same applies for those that breed tall, slabsided, hard doing animals that can't get fat if they fell into a corn silo, full of structural faults and proudly claims they are breeding range bulls for the commercial man.
I am not having a go at certain countries or really even at individual breeding programs, I'm having a go at Hereford Breeders in general.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Sept 1, 2015 8:55:20 GMT -6
Add to that that we all need to study our breed's standards of excellence again and take a close look at breed characteristics. I am not saying that a breed don't evolve over time, but if you have a calf with big ears you must know that is not a Hereford trait and regardless of how sure you are of the pedigree, do the right thing and cull that calf rather than propagating a known simmental trait (even if you are as sure as you can be there are no cracks in the pedigree) Harley, what do you think about heads? Good old breeders, or at least some of them here, were very careful about them as a sign of breed purity. And then there were many that did´t care since you don't eat heads. |
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Post by hoekland on Sept 1, 2015 9:07:24 GMT -6
I believe heads are a sign of quality and endocrine balance. I am yet to see a bull with a poor head to be a consistant sire of quality cattle.
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Post by btlrupert on Sept 1, 2015 9:22:38 GMT -6
Just my opinion but potential herd bulls both purebred or commercial need to look like bulls from birth. That is show real potential and continue throughout their life. Animals do change for sure . If this was bullet proof all the fun would be gone from predicting who is the best. Note just my opinion. Looking at Revolution as a yearling I would have never kept him for a herd bull. Obviously I was wrong there!
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Post by Glenn on Sept 1, 2015 9:29:48 GMT -6
Looking at Revolution as a yearling I would have never kept him for a herd bull. Obviously I was wrong there! I don't quite get the infatuation with Revolution. I've seen as many bad cattle by him as good. Now granted most of these were on FB or cattle sites, but he sure doesn't seem to be the sure fire improver that so many make him out to be. Here's a son for sale now:   |
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Post by blueribbonfarms on Sept 1, 2015 9:52:01 GMT -6
We go to shows and I see heifers and bulls that I would not have in my herd. They bring in these bulls that I know they are breeding to their cows and they get something like the picture above. They keep this up and they wonder why they aren't improving. Doesn't matter what bull you are using, you probably are not going to get a good calf unless your are breeding to a good mama and vise versa.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Sept 1, 2015 9:54:46 GMT -6
Here are the heads of three bulls that were the foundation of the Shorthorn, Angus and Hereford breeds here in Argentina. The whisky is still made, not as good as Scotch by the way, by close relatives, a cousin of my father.. And the president of the company was a Hereford breeder that always used English blood. Now they switched to Braford.  |
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Post by George on Sept 1, 2015 10:29:05 GMT -6
I believe heads are a sign of quality and endocrine balance. I am yet to see a bull with a poor head to be a consistant sire of quality cattle. Well, the first Bailouts are hitting the ground here now. Since Bailout's head is probably my least favorite part of the bull, I sure hope that I'm not disappointed!  |
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Post by btlrupert on Sept 1, 2015 10:41:05 GMT -6
Never used Revolution and would not but I have to give credit to the daughters I have seen. (limited number) May have been the cow power behind them. I would not use him as he does not fit our conditions (hot weather and fescue) or breeding philosophy but have to give credit that "some" work. If you have to throw away a bunch of them to get a few good ones then I would question why use him as well. FR I love the label on that whisky bottle. That's cool!
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Post by whiteface on Sept 1, 2015 10:48:35 GMT -6
I keep going back to using Revolution because hands down the best females come from him time and time again. THose females stand out in the herd and most generally turn into some of the best producers. Now Revolution bulls on the other hand I'd say 50/50% I cull and keep. He does tend to wipe off some pigment around the eyes I've seen. Revolution is proven. Period. Anyone who says he's a shitty bull obviously is living in another world. Just to show what works one place but may not work in another, I tend to not like my 3027 daughters. Small cows with long teets that produce the smallest weaning calves each year.
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Post by whiteface on Sept 1, 2015 11:01:02 GMT -6
Kind of getting away from hoekland's original post of feeding calves into bulls. I struggle probably just like the rest. If a bull calf doesn't look like a bull from birth then he should be cut. BUT....I have seen some 7-8 weight steers I should've kept as bulls too later on. Maybe humans are not like cattle but I know I was an early maturer, shaving by 8th grade and was 175lbs with no fat. Some of my classmates voices didnt change until they were juniors in high school. They then surpassed me in height, size, etc. So naturally animals mature differently. Do you sometimes think bulls are like adolescent teens?
With that said, you just gotta see potential IF you decide to keep those less than stellar calves. If you don't see potential early on, then cut them.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 1, 2015 11:05:06 GMT -6
Revolution is proven. Period. Anyone who says he's a shitty bull obviously is living in another world. To each his own. I admit I haven't seen a lot of daughters but I've seen enough bulls to know he's not the "be all and end all" bull that so many claim he is. And I'd assume stay Simmental free as well. Might end up with some big ears......LOL Glenn Chitwood reporting from Texas Maybe another another world.....LOL  |
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Post by George on Sept 1, 2015 11:51:34 GMT -6
I have slowly come around to where I have recently recommended Revolution, as a sire of females, to others. I still won't use Revolution in my herd, as I have chosen to exclude anything that has Titan 23D blood back in their pedigree, but I have seen too many good daughters to not recognize him to be a sire of good females.
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Post by hoekland on Sept 1, 2015 13:07:26 GMT -6
Don't know much about Revolution except he's not my type. SHF Progress seem to be a cowmaker better than any other poll bull I can think of right now. Again not a bull I'd use, but I've seen enough to give credit where its due
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Post by guffeygal on Sept 1, 2015 15:06:22 GMT -6
Our good friend, Jack Stidham, use to say " If they were a good calf they will come back to it." We think he was right.
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Post by picketwire on Sept 3, 2015 9:26:29 GMT -6
Kind of getting away from hoekland's original post of feeding calves into bulls. I struggle probably just like the rest. If a bull calf doesn't look like a bull from birth then he should be cut. BUT....I have seen some 7-8 weight steers I should've kept as bulls too later on. Maybe humans are not like cattle but I know I was an early maturer, shaving by 8th grade and was 175lbs with no fat. Some of my classmates voices didnt change until they were juniors in high school. They then surpassed me in height, size, etc. So naturally animals mature differently. Do you sometimes think bulls are like adolescent teens? Yep, it's a given. All biological creatures capable of reproduction (aside from asexual) can and do mature sexually at different stages. Some are better than others. Some are early and some are late. All meant to fit a different environment. A phenomenon that lots of people don't understand anymore, especially those not around animals, domestic and wild. |
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Post by picketwire on Sept 3, 2015 9:28:41 GMT -6
Just to be clear, I am confident everyone on this board understands genetic x environment interactions.
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Post by hoekland on Sept 3, 2015 9:55:05 GMT -6
Just to be clear, I am confident everyone on this board understands genetic x environment interactions. I'm not so sure |
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Post by jayh on Sept 3, 2015 12:30:48 GMT -6
Just to be clear, I am confident everyone on this board understands genetic x environment interactions. I'm not so sure Me either. |
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 3, 2015 13:06:19 GMT -6
With you boys on this one |
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