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Post by Glenn on Jun 24, 2015 12:51:21 GMT -6
Saw this on another site. Advice on starting a new herd
>>Since you're just starting with registered cattle you don't have a name to back you up so you're going to have to rely on genetics and it's much easier to stack genetics in young cattle than it is old ones. In time you want to have a reputation of people buying bulls from you because you know what you're doing but pedigrees full of big name bulls is a good starting point for getting customers in the first place.<<<
Forget actual "breeding" <quaint outdated idea anyway> just fill a pedigree with big time AI bulls and you're off and running!!!
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Post by mrvictordomino on Jun 24, 2015 13:47:28 GMT -6
Sounds like the formula for success.... Not
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Post by btlrupert on Jun 24, 2015 19:03:44 GMT -6
Unreal !
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Post by bookcliff on Jun 24, 2015 20:39:20 GMT -6
so your all saying if your a new guy that AIing to bulls like Harland, 9126J, 3027, 5216, 8020, 0130X, 132X, ect when your firing things up ect ect ect ain't a safe bet but running around buying a few cows at this dispersal and a few bred heifers form this feller here and there is OK.
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Post by mrvictordomino on Jun 24, 2015 21:26:46 GMT -6
so your all saying if your a new guy that AIing to bulls like Harland, 9126J, 3027, 5216, 8020, 0130X, 132X, ect when your firing things up ect ect ect ain't a safe bet but running around buying a few cows at this dispersal and a few bred heifers form this feller here and there is OK. Tom, I intrepid it to mean that is all you had to do is use the popular bulls of the day and you would be an instant success. If a guy was to use the bulls you listed he would sure would developing a nice herd of cattle. Sounds like what I always hear locally about the angus bulls being offered around here, folks always making sure you know thy are sired by an A.I. sire. That doesn't always mean they are better. |
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Post by George on Jun 25, 2015 11:40:12 GMT -6
so your all saying if your a new guy that AIing to bulls like Harland, 9126J, 3027, 5216, 8020, 0130X, 132X, ect when your firing things up ect ect ect ain't a safe bet but running around buying a few cows at this dispersal and a few bred heifers form this feller here and there is OK. Tom, I intrepid it to mean that is all you had to do is use the popular bulls of the day and you would be an instant success. If a guy was to use the bulls you listed he would sure would developing a nice herd of cattle. Sounds like what I always hear locally about the angus bulls being offered around here, folks always making sure you know thy are sired by an A.I. sire. That doesn't always mean they are better. I think that's what I see in a lot of "newbies". Some folks think a registration paper with EPDs is a guarantee of the animal being a good bull or cow. Although, I think it is generally a good plan, just stacking good proven AI bulls on top of each other doesn't guarantee good cattle or success. They also need to learn about the "basics" - evidence of good structure, fertility, etc. |
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Post by bookcliff on Jun 25, 2015 18:13:36 GMT -6
Tom, I intrepid it to mean that is all you had to do is use the popular bulls of the day and you would be an instant success. If a guy was to use the bulls you listed he would sure would developing a nice herd of cattle. Sounds like what I always hear locally about the angus bulls being offered around here, folks always making sure you know thy are sired by an A.I. sire. That doesn't always mean they are better. I think that's what I see in a lot of "newbies". Some folks think a registration paper with EPDs is a guarantee of the animal being a good bull or cow. Although, I think it is generally a good plan, just stacking good proven AI bulls on top of each other doesn't guarantee good cattle or success. They also need to learn about the "basics" - evidence of good structure, fertility, etc. theres a hellava lot of "old hands" and big established names that need to learn the same thing George so it ain't just a newby thing only. I personally get damn sick and tired of everyone banging on AI and those of us who do it extensively. it's a tool and if you don't choose to do it fine. if you chose to go the herd bull route, more power to you. however it sure seems alot of people think that a herd bull is somehow a mystical thing who will cure all ills. he won't anymore than an AI sire if inproperally evaluated for the intended use. on a sidenote becuase of the amount of AI I do I have had more than one big name who doesn't AI ( even some who will publicly talk against it) try and sell me semen. |
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Post by strojanherefords on Jun 26, 2015 1:06:07 GMT -6
To brush with broad strokes, there are multipliers and there are breeders. Any multiplier can open up the ABS catalog and pick among the glossy pictures or EPDs. But using popular stud sires exclusively shows a lack of confidence in the multipliers ability to make breeding decisions. When I buy semen or a bull, I feel that I am not only buying genetics but also the wisdom that went into breeding that bull and I feel that it is important to support the breeder with my genetic dollar.
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Post by hoekland on Jun 26, 2015 6:02:18 GMT -6
AI is a great tool if you know when and how to use it, there was a time when I didn't even own a bull, AI also played a vital role in the beginning of my linebreeding program and will hopefully play a role in my old English horned experiments.
I agree though that stacking the flavour of the month will not give the results that I'd like, but I've come to learn that some breeders have a very different idea than mine when it comes to quality and function.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 6:37:52 GMT -6
I'm with Tom on this one and I've brought this up before too, smaller herds such as ours we don't have the luxury of just turning everything out with a herd bull(s) and calling it good. We only run enough cows and enough pasture to run 1 bull. If all we had to choose from replacements were heifers from 1 bull we'd be changing out bulls about every 2 years instead of 4. Plus while you think you've done all your homework on a bull until he has some daughters in production and is proven he's no more risky than using an AI sire. We've had a bull do havoc on birth weights before and at least 1 other that his daughters didn't milk as well as we would like but by the time you find these things out you already have a couple calf crops sired by him so by using some AI we broaden up our gene pool with some genetics we know have worked for others and it's more about hopefully breeding our next herd bull or getting some outcross females into the herd. Just because you AI doesn't mean you are limited to the sire stud catalogs, we buy a lot of semen directly from breeders if we can.
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Post by randy on Jun 27, 2015 9:23:30 GMT -6
Hmmmm..... There is a difference between breeding cattle and taking a blind shot in the dark. When you start out you had better load up on all the cow power you can get. Cows make a herd and are the cornerstone of any operation. No matter what what bull you use if you do not have some cow power you just as well go piss into the wind.
When I started out I bought cows in many places and that was a mistake. I bought off the top of of many herds and that was a mistake. Knowing what I know now I would have bought select cow families off select herds. I would have butted heads with people at the Stone dispersal to get specific cattle. I would have bought more cows at Northern Pump's dispersal. I did get some nice cows from the Sam Moore and Dick Davis dispersal's, but not enough numbers to propagate a breeding program. Cow power is what builds a herd. I got two cows from Higgins Bros and wish I could have bought a hundred of those.
Now lets talk a bit about "proven sires".... There are many bulls out there that are so called "proven sires" that really have not"proven" much of anything!!!
Many people cuss ET and IVF, but yet it may be an excellent way of building a cow herd. What if you had the coin to just ET and IVF with sexed semen.. Build the female herd with the best cow families. Build with bulls stacked with top cow families etc. That would be a dream to do and it is not out of reach for a few players in the breed.
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Post by bookcliff on Jun 27, 2015 11:17:54 GMT -6
Hmmmm..... There is a difference between breeding cattle and taking a blind shot in the dark. When you start out you had better load up on all the cow power you can get. Cows make a herd and are the cornerstone of any operation. No matter what what bull you use if you do not have some cow power you just as well go piss into the wind. When I started out I bought cows in many places and that was a mistake. I bought off the top of of many herds and that was a mistake. Knowing what I know now I would have bought select cow families off select herds. I would have butted heads with people at the Stone dispersal to get specific cattle. I would have bought more cows at Northern Pump's dispersal. I did get some nice cows from the Sam Moore and Dick Davis dispersal's, but not enough numbers to propagate a breeding program. Cow power is what builds a herd. I got two cows from Higgins Bros and wish I could have bought a hundred of those. Now lets talk a bit about "proven sires".... There are many bulls out there that are so called "proven sires" that really have not"proven" much of anything!!! Many people cuss ET and IVF, but yet it may be an excellent way of building a cow herd. What if you had the coin to just ET and IVF with sexed semen.. Build the female herd without the best cow families. Build with bulls stacked with top cow families etc. That would be a dream to do and it is not out of reach for a few players in the breed. exactly. its about diong your homework weither you buy cows, AI, ET ect. and proven don't necessarily mean proven for what your goes are unless they have been in things that matter for what your diong. these are lessons we all have to learn and that learnign curve can be awful steep at times and some folks never do learn/survive it. furthermore the day you let someone else, especially a stud employee tell you what bulls you should use and you do it is no differnet than running to XYZ to buy to by a herd bull because they've got a big name and banners to prove it or a 200 head sale and are the talk of the area. like my friend from Iowa, I too do alot of AI work for some of the same reasons and most comes from individual herds I know intimately ,not the big cum can stores. it allows me to be able to take less risk after seeing if those sires can produce in the same basic setting and with the same direction as my particualr program without putting alot of eggs in one basket so to speak with a unproven yrling bull especially given how sold down we are from this still lingering drought. futhermore when we do find tha combination that is a jack of all trades in a mating, and has been proven thru not only the daughters of it butthru traits we value considerably her,like feede efficiency, gain and carcass we try and replicate it via ET as much as feasibley possible given our grass and recip situation. my problem with ET is tne current invogue trend of young cows to yearling bulls, I mean what the hell do you really know |
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Post by George on Jun 27, 2015 14:05:59 GMT -6
my problem with ET is tne current invogue trend of young cows to yearling bulls, I mean what the hell do you really know If it is a show winning heifer mated to a show winning bull, you know you'll have folks lining up to pay $500 to $2000 for each egg - in the chase for those purple ribbons up for grabs a couple of years from now. PROVEN longevity and mothering ability be damned! |
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Post by picketwire on Jul 6, 2015 8:40:29 GMT -6
With my schedule, I don't AI as much as I need to so I have to rely on bull power. I try to balance budget/needs with as solid and bulletproof as I can find/afford. When I can and do, my homework is done and more and more that entails direct communication with breeders about the cows in the mix, not middlemen and women. I do talk to middlepersons (!) some (if i know and trust their eye)to find out what they see outside of herd that raised said critter.
I have been vocal about my frustrations with the thinking of the big 4 can stores and I understand that side of the business better than most would think. However that knowledge only validates my frustrations when I see them again and again find ONE bull with a little potential and with LOTS OF PROMOTION AND COMMOTION, turn him into the must use greatest thing since sliced bread. Then the other three fall into line and each go buy/lease 2 to 3 to 4 sons that follow a bullstud lineage irregardless of whether the mating(s) nicked and pretty soon that ball is rolling downhill crushing more small (& sometimes large) outfits than doing them any good. . .
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Post by bookcliff on Jul 15, 2015 16:21:55 GMT -6
With my schedule, I don't AI as much as I need to so I have to rely on bull power. I try to balance budget/needs with as solid and bulletproof as I can find/afford. When I can and do, my homework is done and more and more that entails direct communication with breeders about the cows in the mix, not middlemen and women. I do talk to middlepersons (!) some (if i know and trust their eye)to find out what they see outside of herd that raised said critter. I have been vocal about my frustrations with the thinking of the big 4 can stores and I understand that side of the business better than most would think. However that knowledge only validates my frustrations when I see them again and again find ONE bull with a little potential and with LOTS OF PROMOTION AND COMMOTION, turn him into the must use greatest thing since sliced bread. Then the other three fall into line and each go buy/lease 2 to 3 to 4 sons that follow a bullstud lineage irregardless of whether the mating(s) nicked and pretty soon that ball is rolling downhill crushing more small (& sometimes large) outfits than doing them any good. . . 878 comes to mind as an example TJ, or for that matter so do 323 or 036 |
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Post by picketwire on Jul 15, 2015 20:59:33 GMT -6
There ain't enough room on this page to list the 036 sons that typify what I talked about promotion and commotion doing to a cowherd, large or small. And you got one of the very worst in my mind in 323! 878 ain't too far behind. And 036 isn't even the overpromoted sire I would have started with, although he definitely belongs in the top ten.
Shoot we could pick 50 bulls easy that would make the list with sons that should have been cut at weaning. And several of those sires that should have been as well.
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