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Post by Glenn on Mar 8, 2015 10:21:37 GMT -6
Good point Tom. So much of what you see from every side now in the beef industry is "promotion". Pharo had some REALLY GOOD points at first but he has to keep moving further out there to be "avant garde" or he risks losing his audience (customers).
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Post by elkwc on Mar 8, 2015 10:47:23 GMT -6
TK I also agree with some of his views. It was his extreme viewpoints that let me know that his program wasn't for me and wouldn't work for many. I was taught about like you were. Also I was taught if you can't take care of them then don't own them. I've seen one herd this winter that is across the road from one bunch I help with. They are not only small but way underfed. When they can't make it through a 4" snowfall something is wrong. Now I don't know if he is a PCC breeder or just lazy. I imagine the latter. I agree a frame 7 is too big for many if not most. And it appears he has added a lot of muscle now. But a 900# cow and a 1,600# bull can't produce what the market demands. I see he has some bulls now close too or just over a ton and close to frame 5's. I also saw where he has partnered with and used Ohlde's bloodlines. Although I've never seen their herd I have seen progeny of their bulls that were pretty good with enough frame and good muscling. Whether it was the result of the cows the bulls were used on I'm not sure. The one Ohlde bull I saw was an upper frame 5 so was surprised to see that Kit was using their cattle. Most of the bulls used around here were composites and when mature the bulls weighed around 1,500. Had some muscling but very short. Guess he started with a pretty good herd he took over from his Dad.
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Post by picketwire on Mar 8, 2015 12:56:51 GMT -6
Drove by Cheyenne wells several years ago and saw all I needed to see from the road at 55 mph and none of that statement speaks to any of my ability or inability to evaluate beef cattle. Has everything to do with practicing what you preach and that is all I have to say about that!
Best case scenario I can speak to is that sometime in Jr High school, everyone needs to take a BS identifier class!
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Post by bookcliff on Mar 8, 2015 14:58:29 GMT -6
Has everything to do with practicing what you preach and that is all I have to say about that! I take it you noticed the well worn pickup tracks under the overhead cake bin and the set of well worn pickup tracks right up to the round butler grain bin with the auger sticking out
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Post by picketwire on Mar 8, 2015 15:58:31 GMT -6
Has everything to do with practicing what you preach and that is all I have to say about that! I take it you noticed the well worn pickup tracks under the overhead cake bin and the set of well worn pickup tracks right up to the round butler grain bin with the auger sticking out And the feed troughs and the bare ground traps around the windmill and the feed troughs with cattle waiting by the cattle guard. . .
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Post by tartancowgirl on Mar 12, 2015 16:15:00 GMT -6
To go back to the photo at the start of this thread, my first reaction was "it looks so cute and fluffy - my 14 year old daughter would love it!" Presumably in N America you are getting to the stage where you have a "show type" and a "commercial type" of Hereford (and Shorthorn too). I suppose this is not surprising. We have a young imported Quarter horse - she is bred from cutting / reining lines but looks quite different from say a "halter" type or a "western pleasure" type or a "hunter under saddle" type. Similarly in dogs we have working and show type Border collies and working and show type Labradors etc. It goes against the grain perhaps when the Hereford is supposed to be a tough commercial beef animal, but they have such nice temperaments, perhaps there is room for "pet Herefords" too?
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Post by shumakerherefords on Mar 12, 2015 17:53:46 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 19:16:51 GMT -6
There is one thing that I think most if not all here can agree on, the Mini Herefords are definitely a hobby breed
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Post by jayh on Mar 13, 2015 8:43:28 GMT -6
U guys really think 4 inches in height makes all the difference ? I guess I am way off.
I was under the assumption that it was type more than height. U guys keep telling me it takes a big cow to raise a big calf ( I call B.S.)
I dont believe everything and Kit has probably went to extreme but when it comes down to it.It has to be about eefficiency and cost. So tell me how u make 6.00 corn work to feed cows. I know corn is back down now. I also know grass fed isn't the saviour of it either.
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Post by fivestarherefords on Mar 13, 2015 8:52:43 GMT -6
Our cows are 1400 - 1600 pounds and don't get a bite of corn after they are 3 - 4 month bred heifers. Pasture, mixed grass haylage in the winter and purina wind and rain hi mag breeder mineral year round. Average frame score is 6 - 6.5.
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Post by jayh on Mar 13, 2015 9:07:19 GMT -6
Our cows are 1400 - 1600 pounds and don't get a bite of corn after they are 3 - 4 month bred heifers. Pasture, mixed grass haylage in the winter and purina wind and rain hi mag breeder mineral year round. Average frame score is 6 - 6.5. Lick tubs.? Haylage u bag it or how do u do it? What I am getting at is that's an expense to.
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Post by jayh on Mar 13, 2015 9:10:50 GMT -6
We can't starve profit from a cow but we all do it different. I guess that's why we have club calves and range bulls and paddock cattle.
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Post by bookcliff on Mar 13, 2015 16:37:08 GMT -6
U guys really think 4 inches in height makes all the difference ? I guess I am way off. I was under the assumption that it was type more than height. U guys keep telling me it takes a big cow to raise a big calf ( I call B.S.) I dont believe everything and Kit has probably went to extreme but when it comes down to it.It has to be about eefficiency and cost. So tell me how u make 6.00 corn work to feed cows. I know corn is back down now. I also know grass fed isn't the saviour of it either. it isn't just the 4 inches in height all by itself. those 4 inches are also most often indicative of a whole host of other skeletal dimensions that go along with it and those often help determine the level at which that calf performs on a whole host of traits. also along with this whole thread I would like to add something about the Braxton bull mentioned earlier here. he ain't no frame 4 he's definately bigger than that , and that's coming directly from Kieth, and I for one trust him. futhermore look at his pedigree. I've used several of the bulls AI who show up there and they definately aren't guys who sire frame score 4's.
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Post by oakcreekfarm on Mar 13, 2015 19:11:42 GMT -6
I plan to frame score my cows this spring so we will see if I am full of crap or not. But I think a frame 5.5 1350lb cow is what I am after. I have had cows that I knew were over 6 frame, some 6.5, and they didn't last under my management. They didn't hold condition, and they didn't rebreed. So the packers may want a big framed 1400lb steer, but my pocket book sees little profit from that scenario. It may be my terrible husbandry.
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Post by George on Mar 13, 2015 19:21:41 GMT -6
I plan to frame score my cows this spring so we will see if I am full of crap or not. But I think a frame 5.5 1350lb cow is what I am after. I have had cows that I knew were over 6 frame, some 6.5, and they didn't last under my management. They didn't hold condition, and they didn't rebreed. So the packers may want a big framed 1400lb steer, but my pocket book sees little profit from that scenario. It may be my terrible husbandry. I agree! My goal is a herd of 1350-1400 lb. FS 5.5 cows.
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Post by elkwc on Mar 13, 2015 19:46:59 GMT -6
There is one thing that I think most if not all here can agree on, the Mini Herefords are definitely a hobby breed I know of a couple with a small acreage who raise mini Herefords. They went that route after raising full size Herefords for a few years. They feed out everything they don't keep for replacements. They have a waiting list for the beef. They say they can turn out more pounds on their acreage than thy did with full sized Herefods. So yes some do raise them to sell the meat and not for hobby farming.
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Post by bookcliff on Mar 14, 2015 12:57:16 GMT -6
I plan to frame score my cows this spring so we will see if I am full of crap or not. But I think a frame 5.5 1350lb cow is what I am after. I have had cows that I knew were over 6 frame, some 6.5, and they didn't last under my management. They didn't hold condition, and they didn't rebreed. So the packers may want a big framed 1400lb steer, but my pocket book sees little profit from that scenario. It may be my terrible husbandry. that is at least in our program the average right sized cow. along with a few bigger ones and a few smaller ones it gives some dimension for the bull offering to have something to fit most guys. I personally don't mind big 6+ frame 1500-1600 lbs cows PROVIDED they can still do the their job AND REBREED ON TIME with limited inputs and a wintering program designed around the cow size you mentioned (mid 5 frame, 1300 and some lb'ers.)the handful that can make real power cows, the trick is letting mother nature sort out the ones who can't. the other thing is that cow size is often like BW's, everyone thinks they know what they are by just eyeballing em, and outside of guys who either buy cull cows or feeder cattle for a living, the only ones I've ever seen that can acurrately do that are the guys who actually take the time to take the measurements on their cows themselves. As one who has actively framed and weighed the cowherd for the last 25 years I would encourage everyone to do just like Matt is talking about, it might just suprize you.
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Post by jayh on Mar 16, 2015 12:30:10 GMT -6
I plan to frame score my cows this spring so we will see if I am full of crap or not. But I think a frame 5.5 1350lb cow is what I am after. I have had cows that I knew were over 6 frame, some 6.5, and they didn't last under my management. They didn't hold condition, and they didn't rebreed. So the packers may want a big framed 1400lb steer, but my pocket book sees little profit from that scenario. It may be my terrible husbandry. That's what I am saying to. Its all about balance and I agree with most of you but you are going to have to really convince me that those 6+ frame cows are as deep and thick ( I have seen very few) I will also state that frame 5-5.5 is about where I need (want ) to be. I would like to see some pics of some 6.5 frame cows that LOOK deep and thick .
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Post by elkwc on Mar 16, 2015 20:21:35 GMT -6
Jay I agree with your 5-5.5 frame size. That is what I'm shooting for on the cows although I would rather have a low 6 instead of a 4.5. Anything that ends up frame wise below a 5.0 will likely be ona shorter rope than the others. I've seen several frame 6's with thickness to them. What I've seen in the last six months that many of the good progeny of the shorter bulls are out of what I feel are too large cows. I saw a few cows that have produced several of the top recent winners and they were at least frame 7's and weighing 1,700 or more. Too big for me but what it is taking to get the needed size and frame on the progeny of many of the popular polled bulls currently being pushed.
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