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Post by Glenn on Mar 1, 2015 20:10:17 GMT -6
Shorthorn here. But these are Hereford people showing it. This is where the showring is leading us. Anyone remember the phrase "belt buckle cattle"?
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Post by bookcliff on Mar 1, 2015 22:13:40 GMT -6
Glenn,
I've got a big portrat picture of my dad circa late 60's at the halter of a bull that had a pretty good run on the tanbark wherever he was shown hanging over my desk. a really nice upper 3 frame coming two. was reserve in Ogden, won his division in Phoenix, won his class at damn near every state fair he was at along with a some divisions and the occasional purple or lavender rossette there as well and was 2nd in class at Denver (kinda a big deal back then as big as the classes were in those days) while that bull was right for the time and I am proud of his accomplishments, it also serves to remind me not to go back there.
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Post by randy on Mar 1, 2015 22:30:16 GMT -6
When you are harvesting grass by the AUM it does not make much sense to use a tiny harvester.....
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Post by jayh on Mar 2, 2015 6:32:52 GMT -6
Well I do think 3 frame is to small but I do like a nice 5-5.5 frame. I don't think they will work everywhere but they work here.
So I guess I will bite. What is wrong with that steer? He is probably a 4 frame? Maybe? What will he dress if you were to guess?
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Post by elkwc on Mar 3, 2015 13:43:24 GMT -6
Well I do think 3 frame is to small but I do like a nice 5-5.5 frame. I don't think they will work everywhere but they work here. So I guess I will bite. What is wrong with that steer? He is probably a 4 frame? Maybe? What will he dress if you were to guess? If you don't mind taking a 20-30 dollar a hundred dock then nothing is wrong with him. He wii be docked for several reasons. One being that the cost of gain will likely be higher. This type have been discussed many times in previous threads.
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Post by jayh on Mar 3, 2015 13:49:37 GMT -6
Well I do think 3 frame is to small but I do like a nice 5-5.5 frame. I don't think they will work everywhere but they work here. So I guess I will bite. What is wrong with that steer? He is probably a 4 frame? Maybe? What will he dress if you were to guess? If you don't mind taking a 20-30 dollar a hundred dock then nothing is wrong with him. He wii be docked for several reasons. One being that the cost of gain will likely be higher. This type have been discussed many times in previous threads. So your saying that smaller framed cows wont gain like bigger framed cows
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Post by jayh on Mar 3, 2015 19:10:25 GMT -6
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Post by elkwc on Mar 3, 2015 19:15:00 GMT -6
If you don't mind taking a 20-30 dollar a hundred dock then nothing is wrong with him. He wii be docked for several reasons. One being that the cost of gain will likely be higher. This type have been discussed many times in previous threads. So your saying that smaller framed cows wont gain like bigger framed cows First it doesn't what I think or say. The feeders say that the framier, stretcher, well muscled cattle gain more economical when reaching the current weights the packers desire. When a set of cattle enter the sale ring where I attend that are like what I described above the barn owner stops and talks about them and they wii sell at the top. When a set enters like the above steer nothing is said and they are docked. I know feeders who have fed cattle foe many years who would never feed a steer like the one above. That type of steer typically costs more to get to the 1300-1400 pound range. At least that is what the feeders and feedlot managers tell me. So if a commercial breeder wants top dollar he had better raise what they want.
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Post by jayh on Mar 3, 2015 19:42:20 GMT -6
Yea. Those types do bring more my question is are those guys still right?
Those guys want more frame to hang more meat on with less input. So my question is isn't a 800 lb carcass the same weight regardless if its from a frame 4 or frame 7.
And I am just asking questions I dont sell like some of the rest of u do. My thinking is if a frame 4 can get to that 1400-1500 ib weight just in same time and same feed then whats wrong with them.
I guess what I am saying is its just like oil.
We all use something different and I can tell u just about what brand your using by popping off the valve cover. Now I can also tell u some of those oils are alot better now and cost less but yet u are still going to buy Castrol because u seen a commercial and your neighbor uses it. Same thing in cattle. Your afraid to try and so are they.
For the record I agree with u just trying to think outside the box.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Mar 3, 2015 20:33:30 GMT -6
Yea. Those types do bring more my question is are those guys still right? Those guys want more frame to hang more meat on with less input. So my question is isn't a 800 lb carcass the same weight regardless if its from a frame 4 or frame 7. Weight is the same but the composición of that weight will be different: lots of fat in the 800 lbs. frame 4 carcass.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 5:29:31 GMT -6
The cattle next to me were selected by the feeders and packers in Kansas. There isn't a single cow over frame 5 and the bull used was frame 5.
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Post by bltherf on Mar 4, 2015 7:33:55 GMT -6
Mmmnn. Must be a regional thing. Off to Calgary bull sale today. Kind of a yearly pilgrimage. Haven' missed many in the last 30 years. Bulls there are what real commercial cowboys have bought for a long time. Don't think there will be any frame 5's there .
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Post by jayh on Mar 4, 2015 9:00:10 GMT -6
Mmmnn. Must be a regional thing. Off to Calgary bull sale today. Kind of a yearly pilgrimage. Haven' missed many in the last 30 years. Bulls there are what real commercial cowboys have bought for a long time. Don't think there will be any frame 5's there . Yep
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Post by elkwc on Mar 4, 2015 21:59:22 GMT -6
The cattle next to me were selected by the feeders and packers in Kansas. There isn't a single cow over frame 5 and the bull used was frame 5. What do you mean they were selected by the feeders and packers in KS? Also a cow in the frame 5 range is what many of use strive for. A bull in the 5.5 to very low 6 range is what most I talk to want.
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Post by elkwc on Mar 4, 2015 22:09:08 GMT -6
First as TK and others have stated the best education a person can receive is feeding out some of their own cattle. This reveals the real world to them. Secondly take a ride with the manager or assistant manager down the alleys of a large feedlot with a lap full of print outs that have the ADG and the cost of gain for each pen of cattle you are viewing. Then look at some closeouts and grades on them after they have been hung on the rail. It doesn't take long to figure out what type feeds the best and why the feeders prefer certain types and dock others. I've been told basically the same thing by the individual feeder as I have from the managers. They have learned their lessons by their losses and gains. They are who I listen to as they are the ones that will determine the price paid for the calves when they are sold.
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Post by strojanherefords on Mar 7, 2015 12:28:33 GMT -6
Could we see some pictures of some good feedlot steers?
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Post by bookcliff on Mar 7, 2015 16:19:50 GMT -6
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Post by elkwc on Mar 7, 2015 17:53:44 GMT -6
Here is a link to an article where Mr Brink of Five Rivers feeders discusses what they look for in feeder cattle. This article is from 2012 but still applies in many aspects today. He also gives his opinion on the make up they prefer. I don't necessarily agree with it but do respect his reasons he gave for them. You can click on a link at the bottom of the article that shows some pics of the type they prefer. Very similar to the above pics TK posted. And all are far different than the steer in the top pic. beefmagazine.com/feedlots/what-do-feedyards-look-feeder-cattle
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Post by bookcliff on Mar 7, 2015 18:14:32 GMT -6
Yea. Those types do bring more my question is are those guys still right? Those guys want more frame to hang more meat on with less input. So my question is isn't a 800 lb carcass the same weight regardless if its from a frame 4 or frame 7. And I am just asking questions I dont sell like some of the rest of u do. My thinking is if a frame 4 can get to that 1400-1500 ib weight just in same time and same feed then whats wrong with them. I guess what I am saying is its just like oil. We all use something different and I can tell u just about what brand your using by popping off the valve cover. Now I can also tell u some of those oils are alot better now and cost less but yet u are still going to buy Castrol because u seen a commercial and your neighbor uses it. Same thing in cattle. Your afraid to try and so are they. For the record I agree with u just trying to think outside the box. it's not jsut about wiether that calf has a 800 lbs carcass or not, it about the YG of that 800 lb carcass if were talking about muscle composition. remember that as yeilds grades go up that means more fat and less muscle. and if that is a YG4 or 5 to get that steer to a live kill weight of 1400 lbs then the packer is paying for a hellava fat, and they don't think to kindly about diong that. futhermore as I have stated before, if that fat steer is at the point that he's startign to lay down an exessive amount of extrenal fat (gnerally past 40 to 50 hundredths of bark), his conversions go to hell and so does his ADG making that 1250 lb steer that genetically would be finsished at 1250 lbs very costly to feed past that point. that's the reason why most of the bigger feedyards have gone to the Brethour scanning system on mass as of late to determine the rate of external fat deposition (which is a pretty good indecation of that individual stters true finish point) and thus aviod not only the high rise on the cost of gain once past the true individual endpoint but to also get away from the $10cwt dock on YG4's and the $20cwt dock on YG5's if at all possible. futhermore, a calf that has a general body composition type of a frame 4 will very rarely make it much past 1250 lbs as a fat steer without the aformentioned YG issues developing. thats why the general target wt for finished steers back in the 60's and 70's when 4 frames were very prevelent was around 1150-1250 lbs. so, yes, you can make a steer that has a genetic endpoint of 1250lbs a 1400 lber, but most often he'll lose you money diong it in the current industry system.
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Post by bookcliff on Mar 7, 2015 18:40:15 GMT -6
I neighbor next to a Pharo cooperator and from what I see across the wire since Jim moved in here 5 years ago is alot of big talk, but when hard questions are asked about feedlot performance and YG's, the subject changes pretty quick. same goes for Kit, or at least the one converstaion I had with him at a meeting he and Jim held here a couple of years ago. and I wasn't the only one to ask him about it that night, he dodged it at least a 1/2 dozen other times thru the night. as to the Braxton bull, I guess I would be asking the following on his gain.......... how long was the test and what the timing was at in the grazing season when the test was conducted because of............. compository gain coming off of dry winter grazing and no suplimental feeding ask anyone whose ever run steers wintered in dry old big bluestem and a little cake in the flint hillls and how those calves explode once they hit green grass, I've had salebarn specials gain 3.3 day over the whole grazing season before when Andrea and I were still running yearlings on the Horizon Ranch north of Manhattan
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Post by elkwc on Mar 7, 2015 22:06:21 GMT -6
TK Cheyenne Wells isn't all that far from here. Some from here went to the Pharo sale at least one year and I think maybe more several years ago. The bulls lasted a few years and were culled. I'm not sure of all the reasons but one was poor growth rates and performance. There aren't any around here now. A fellow coworker brought them up a few weeks ago. And said they were a fad that has passed in this area. When they first hit here they were going to the answer for this arid area. When reality set in and the calves didn't perform and they were docked when they were sold the honeymoon was over.
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Post by timbernt on Mar 8, 2015 7:22:12 GMT -6
The neighbor who fills my nitrogen tanks has become a Pharo believer. The other day I went by their farm and they had unrolled hay next to the road. Their cattle have deteriorated into little, scruffy things that are not marketable. Sure as heck not carrying much condition. They are selling freezer beef since the cattle are so discounted at the market. A couple of years ago they had Kit here for a county cattlemens meeting. These old Missourians didn't buy in and several explained why Pharo was wrong (I must not be the only opinionated man in the area) and when he left he said it was about the worst crowd he had spoken to and wasn't coming back.
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Post by elkwc on Mar 8, 2015 7:40:58 GMT -6
The neighbor who fills my nitrogen tanks has become a Pharo believer. The other day I went by their farm and they had unrolled hay next to the road. Their cattle have deteriorated into little, scruffy things that are not marketable. Sure as heck not carrying much condition. They are selling freezer beef since the cattle are so discounted at the market. A couple of years ago they had Kit here for a county cattlemens meeting. These old Missourians didn't buy in and several explained why Pharo was wrong (I must not be the only opinionated man in the area) and when he left he said it was about the worst crowd he had spoken to and wasn't coming back. I can't remember what part of MO you are from for sure but was thinking the SW. I see where he is selling bulls at Springfield, MO on April 2, 2015. I still remember when my coworker and some of his friends went up to the sale and he was telling me how this breeder was going to change the whole cattle industry. At least the type raised in this area. He had all of this literature he wanted me to read. After reading a little of it I gave it back and told him to keep it in his vehicle because it might come in handy if he had a roadside emergency. I do see he is using bigger bulls weight wise now. But still talks about the 900-1,000 lb cows. There is no way he can meet what the feeder wants with that type. He might be able to sell them in a niche market as grass fed or something along those lines. It really cost some of those around here that tried them. It amazes me how some will follow a good salesman rather than listen to an old wise cattleman. I know several good cattlemen around here that wasted their time trying to warn them of the results.
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Post by timbernt on Mar 8, 2015 7:41:54 GMT -6
I am going to stick my neck out even farther and point out that when Keith Lapp was using 137Y the most he was a Pharo cooperator.
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Post by bookcliff on Mar 8, 2015 10:06:57 GMT -6
The neighbor who fills my nitrogen tanks has become a Pharo believer. The other day I went by their farm and they had unrolled hay next to the road. Their cattle have deteriorated into little, scruffy things that are not marketable. Sure as heck not carrying much condition. They are selling freezer beef since the cattle are so discounted at the market. A couple of years ago they had Kit here for a county cattlemens meeting. These old Missourians didn't buy in and several explained why Pharo was wrong (I must not be the only opinionated man in the area) and when he left he said it was about the worst crowd he had spoken to and wasn't coming back. back some 25 years ago I agreed with alot of what Kit said as it was often times pretty close to what my grandad and father always said, things like a cow has to fit her enviroment shes run in, don't breed in more milk than your management and enviroment can stand without a bunch of extra feed, if your running em on grass and cake in hells frying pan out here on the Great Plains (got to remember my forbears were product's of the dirty 30's in western KS) 7+ frames are probalby giong to be in a lot of situations too big without a bunch of extra feed or wheat to graze in the wintertime, if she causes problems for you ship her ect , things like that, the things that a good cowman who always tell you if you got to talking to them. however I think Kit has traveled down the path so far he's come to a a point he's backed himself into a corner, almost a kind of what have you done for me lately situation, thus some of his extreme views and prespective needed to continue to promote his program and preserve his place within the Koolaid crowd he has gathred around him. FUthermore, I think that some of the fellers I see that have gone down his path on a fairly perminanat basis are just plain lazy and this gives them an excuse to be so. Or at least thats the case with my PCC cooperator neighbor. but then again what do I know, he sells 400 bulls a year and I don't.
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