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Post by elkwc on Dec 20, 2014 6:48:17 GMT -6
Randy thanks for the info. I've heard their cattle have great adaptability. Sadly the ability to perform in a wide range of conditions have been bred out of many Herefords. I plan on visiting a herd built around Coyler genetics soon. So found your post very beneficial.
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Post by strojanherefords on Dec 20, 2014 19:42:38 GMT -6
Hmmmm.... I stood next to Mark Cooper and watched him bring $600k. We both thought the bull looked pretty good. They were live at $595 with another group that maybe were thinking the buy from a different angle. Hmmm.... To ask the question was he a good buy at $600k? Maybe that has already been answered. From some angles he may have been one of the best buys in a very long time. Now about the cattle. The place where this bull grew up is no cream puff place. Where they summer that cowherd in no cream puff place. "The Colyer Clan" Ray & Bonnie. Guy & Sherry, Ray Shaffer, Kyle and Bobby and Adan Juarez have taken a place that wouldn't grow good rocks or knee high brush and made it work. Like them or not you have to admire them for getting many things done that few before them ever have. The AHA online records do not corroborate the story that the Colyer cattle are made to work. The dam of Miles Mckee, C Notice Me ET, did not have a natural calf recorded until she was nine. Her sister, C Notice Me Now ET, calved as a two year old and only calved again at five. It is irresponsible to flush cows before they are proven breeders or to use ET to get calves out of cows that will not breed.
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Post by George on Dec 21, 2014 8:30:20 GMT -6
Hmmmm.... I stood next to Mark Cooper and watched him bring $600k. We both thought the bull looked pretty good. They were live at $595 with another group that maybe were thinking the buy from a different angle. Hmmm.... To ask the question was he a good buy at $600k? Maybe that has already been answered. From some angles he may have been one of the best buys in a very long time. Now about the cattle. The place where this bull grew up is no cream puff place. Where they summer that cowherd in no cream puff place. "The Colyer Clan" Ray & Bonnie. Guy & Sherry, Ray Shaffer, Kyle and Bobby and Adan Juarez have taken a place that wouldn't grow good rocks or knee high brush and made it work. Like them or not you have to admire them for getting many things done that few before them ever have. The AHA online records do not corroborate the story that the Colyer cattle are made to work. The dam of Miles Mckee, C Notice Me ET, did not have a natural calf recorded until she was nine. Her sister, C Notice Me Now ET, calved as a two year old and only calved again at five. It is irresponsible to flush cows before they are proven breeders or to use ET to get calves out of cows that will not breed. It took me a while to find the proof, but the first natural calf of C Notice Me ET was shown in Reno in 2004, a bull calf sired by 212M. I know this because I stood there while he was tied in the stalls and discussed with Guy Colyer what kind of cow that Notice Me was making, her udder, etc..... This shows up on the AHA website in the 2004 Western Nugget show results: C NOTICE ME FIRST DOB: 3/15/2004 SIRE: CL 1 DOMINO 212M REGISTRATION: 42471498 BRED BY: COLYER HEREFORDS, BRUNEAU, ID OWNED BY: COLYER HEREFORDS, BRUNEAU, ID SEX: Bull (Reserve Champion - Spring Bull Calf Division) He was also shown in Denver in 2005 - placed 3rd in Class H14 (Horned Spring Bull Calves) Why this animal no longer shows up in the AHA database is a MYSTERY to me... One of those things that make you go.....Hmmmmmmmmm!!!!!
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Post by Glenn on Dec 21, 2014 8:44:35 GMT -6
I am not saying anything bad about Colyer's at all but I think they are very selective with what they send in to AHA.
Wasn't Notice Me a big potential IEC and for years they wouldn't test her or more likely tested her privately and never released the results?
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Post by George on Dec 21, 2014 9:16:24 GMT -6
I am not saying anything bad about Colyer's at all but I think they are very selective with what they send in to AHA. Wasn't Notice Me a big potential IEC and for years they wouldn't test her or more likely tested her privately and never released the results? Since a full sister tested as IEC (C MS PURE GOLD 3010 {DLF,IEC} (42399306)), a number of us wondered about the IE status of Notice Me for a long time because it wasn't posted on the AHA website until the last few years. I always guessed that Notice Me was IEC, because her IE status was never posted for so long. So it sure surprised me when she was finally posted as IEF and I had guessed wrong.
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Post by randy on Dec 21, 2014 10:07:32 GMT -6
One thing we have to also remember is that the internet database is far from complete. I personally had cattle registered in the 70's and 80's that do not show on the database. I also bought an OXO bull in Ogden that does not show or none of his progeny. I had calves from SBR Levitation 227M that do not show.....hmmmm
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Post by George on Dec 21, 2014 10:29:49 GMT -6
One thing we have to also remember is that the internet database is far from complete. I personally had cattle registered in the 70's and 80's that do not show on the database. I also bought an OXO bull in Ogden that does not show or none of his progeny. I had calves from SBR Levitation 227M that do not show.....hmmmm Randy, this particular calf showed up on the database for quite a while. I know, because he was once in my "watch list" for possible AI sires. Since I was involved in the syndicate that bought C Maui Jim ET, and I later acquired an interest and full possession in the flushmate to C Notice Me ET, C LR Diesel 2030 ET, this is a cow line that I have followed with interest. I do believe that calf was the first natural calf born to C Notice Me ET, based on the conversation that Guy and I had that day in Reno. It is speculation on my part, but the only reason that I can come up with that he was purged from the record is because of a parentage issue, and I'm assuming that he tested as not being sired by 212M. Like I said, that is speculation on my part. Anyway, a statement was made to denigrate the "ability to work" of these cattle and I can say that I believe their full brother that I owned, and that Lambert Ranch and Jerry Brinks used before me, is truly one of the great sires of the Hereford breed. Diesel is sure not an EPD wonder, but his use has provided me with a number of daughters that are proving to be wonderful WORKING cows in my environment. With each one that calves, I become even more convinced of Diesel's exceptional worth as a sire of females.
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Post by strojanherefords on Dec 21, 2014 16:37:15 GMT -6
First off I did not criticize the quality of the Colyer cattle; my issue is with their management philosophy. In fact the 590 and Master Plan influence we have had has turned out well for us. Whatever her quality was, it is clear that Notice Me was a full time flush cow and did not have to prove herself as a brood cow. Additionally, Notice Me had 127 ET progeny recorded over 7 years for an average of 18 a year. That means that Colyers took the genes of 30-40 cows per year out of the gene pool to provide recips for Notice Me. The defining issue for the future of the registered livestock business is the size of the genetic pool. And I do not believe that Notice Me was so much better than her peers to justify her calves occupying the wombs of cows that might be as good or better than she was.
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Post by elkwc on Dec 21, 2014 19:37:10 GMT -6
There are many on this board who know a lot more about embyo's and recipes than I do. But I have talked one breeder who partners with the Colyer's and sells some ET calves in their sale. The recip cows they use are either black or red. So please explain to me how that affects the Hereford gene pool.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 22:18:30 GMT -6
I would assume most breeders use non-papered cows as recips.
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Post by whiteface on Dec 21, 2014 23:05:14 GMT -6
I use my black commercial cows for ET as well. I don't know if this is a good/bad idea or not but as I get more numbers of registered Herefords and want to start replacing some of the Herefords or using some of the Herefords I wouldn't be missing but know that they raise a good calf, I'm thinking of using them as recips. Then just kick them out with good clean up bulls and keep records. They'll either have a ET calf or they'll have a registerable calf just as if they were AI'd and didn't stick. Just an idea. Don't know if its good or not. I'd just do a few here and there.
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Post by larso on Dec 22, 2014 1:33:30 GMT -6
If the donor cow is your best cow and has proved to be far superior than any thing else your got, use what ever means to multiply those genetics and if that means using some of your average cows as recipes so what. I'd rather have a average cow running around with a potential stud sire at her side than a calf that I know will only make a steer.
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Post by randy on Dec 22, 2014 11:11:27 GMT -6
I am going to start a new thread sometime today about Hereford Germ Plasm and Gene Pool. I will discuss what I have seen in a lifetime and the causes. I don't think any of this belongs on this thread.
I would like to keep the thread constructive and educational.
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Post by strojanherefords on Dec 22, 2014 15:46:21 GMT -6
There are many on this board who know a lot more about embyo's and recipes than I do. But I have talked one breeder who partners with the Colyer's and sells some ET calves in their sale. The recip cows they use are either black or red. So please explain to me how that affects the Hereford gene pool. It takes 30-40 recip cows to get the 18 ET calves on the ground. Irregardless of the breed of the recips, the grass and resources used in the ET program could have been used to run sisters of Notice Me that might prove themselves to be better mothers than Notice Me.
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Post by elkwc on Dec 22, 2014 22:27:17 GMT -6
There are many on this board who know a lot more about embyo's and recipes than I do. But I have talked one breeder who partners with the Colyer's and sells some ET calves in their sale. The recip cows they use are either black or red. So please explain to me how that affects the Hereford gene pool. It takes 30-40 recip cows to get the 18 ET calves on the ground. Irregardless of the breed of the recips, the grass and resources used in the ET program could have been used to run sisters of Notice Me that might prove themselves to be better mothers than Notice Me. I've visited 4 herds this year that use ET's to varying degrees in their programs. Each said they run the recip cows on acreage where they ran commercial cows before. That their ET programs have had no effect on the numbers of their traditional purebred herd. I don't know anything about Colyer's so not sure how they handle their recips or what they run them on. But if they are using acres used before for commercial cows or using additional acreage then I see no effect on the possible contribution of any cows sisters. I've been told by a couple of cow men I respect that Notice Me is a very good cow and neither owned any of her progeny at the time they stated that. I was always told that a great cow made more of a contribution to building a herd than a great bull. So with that being said I see nothing wrong with intensifying the influence by using ET and increasing a certain cows contribution. I get the feeling you don't like Notice Me. We are each entitled to our opinions. But evidently Colyer's feel she is a cow they want to have a large influence in their herd. I know of another herd that used a daughter of hers to build their cowherd around with good success. The only possible negative I've seen in the limited number of her offspring I've seen is the progeny of one son gets a percentage that are flighty in nature. Whether this is frome her or the sire of the bull I'm not certain but it is quite evident in some of his calves.
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Post by strojanherefords on Dec 23, 2014 12:47:12 GMT -6
Apart from my decision to raise Herefords with minimal line one or polled influence, I do not have a specific issue with Notice Me. In fact for the good of the breed, I hope that she was a good cow. My issue is with the overuse of embryo transplant. I have had four cows that I considered good enough to flush. Three of them had issues crop up after age seven that showed they were not up to snuff for E.T. That being said if I had a cow that calves would average ten grand a piece, I would flush her nonstop, too.
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