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Post by btlrupert on Dec 2, 2014 9:52:37 GMT -6
I've stayed outa this thread since it started but............. to me a toad really ain't got much to do with anything other than some damn bull or heifer that is all white muscle and with out it wouldn't weigh jack s%$t. \ personally I've seen 6-7 frame cattle that I would call toads in the rig they were in at the time and if you took the fat off of em they'd be slab sided, shallow gutted, narrow based, short hipped pukes and I've seen pile of the 4's that are being shown right now that if you took the fat, the dry beet pulp and the "management" out of em wouldn't be any better than the most of the stockers that get turned out in the Flint Hills each May. at the same time I've seen 4 frames that were long sided big ribbed, big ribeyed cattle that feed like dreams in the feedyard just like I've seen 6+ frames that did the same. in general 5 and 6 frame cattle will have more growth in them then 4's however it has substantailly more to do with type than frame. it all comes down to if they are the type that can push the scale down on thier own or not, not soley on how much air they got between the ground and their belly.
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Post by btlrupert on Dec 2, 2014 9:53:44 GMT -6
Bookcliff summed this up better than any of us!!
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Post by elkwc on Dec 9, 2014 8:34:46 GMT -6
I have been busy and not online much lately. I was going to reply to this thread and now see there is another that is similar. The first thing I want to say is anyone can raise what type and size of animal they want. Just like the couple I know who raise min Herefords. What they don't retain they feed and have a waiting list of customers. As for us the cattle will be sold most likely at a sale barn to a feeder buyer. So that is why I have consulted with those involved in the feedyard end including a manager and also some feeder buyers and have watched several sales. As one stated there are a few frame 4's that will feed efficiently, reach the desired weight and also grade well. But the percentage is small and they are usually the very upper 4's. So as I'm told that if they purchase anything under a frame 5 they dock them for the ineffiency of the avergage frame 4 and under animal.
When I was talking about a Durango son I saw in person he was projected as a yearling to be a mid 5 frame and today as a 4 y/o he is barely a frame 4.0. Another fault of the EPD's and why at this point they are worthless in my opinion. Along with the decreased height you usually see one of two things in cattle. If they retain the muscling they will be shorter coupled and if they make the desired weight they won't do it efficiently. And every person I've talked to have told me that anything lower than a frame 5.0 and especially frame 4.5 down will be docked heavier as they go down. So I feel I would be foolish to raise something knowing it will be docked even before it hits the ground. Until the feeder and packer changes their minds on what they want I will continue to shoot for a frame 5.0 to a 6.5 animal. Again we each have to decide what puts the most dollars in our pockets with the least input.
I guess in the end it puzzles me why some will follow the current trend in the polled breed and raise the smaller frame cattle and then blame the dockage on them being Hereford. As I've stated before at the sale I've attended a good framed feeder animal regardless of color will sell very well if they have the desired muscling. That is why I've been so careful in my selection. In the end the steers that the cows wean will be sold as feeders and the heifers retained. The herd is doing good job of doing both now and I don't want to set it back by the selection of a bull.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 8:53:24 GMT -6
I have been busy and not online much lately. I was going to reply to this thread and now see there is another that is similar. The first thing I want to say is anyone can raise what type and size of animal they want. Just like the couple I know who raise min Herefords. What they don't retain they feed and have a waiting list of customers. As for us the cattle will be sold most likely at a sale barn to a feeder buyer. So that is why I have consulted with those involved in the feedyard end including a manager and also some feeder buyers and have watched several sales. As one stated there are a few frame 4's that will feed efficiently, reach the desired weight and also grade well. But the percentage is small and they are usually the very upper 4's. So as I'm told that if they purchase anything under a frame 5 they dock them for the ineffiency of the avergage frame 4 and under animal. When I was talking about a Durango son I saw in person he was projected as a yearling to be a mid 5 frame and today as a 4 y/o he is barely a frame 4.0. Another fault of the EPD's and why at this point they are worthless in my opinion. Along with the decreased height you usually see one of two things in cattle. If they retain the muscling they will be shorter coupled and if they make the desired weight they won't do it efficiently. And every person I've talked to have told me that anything lower than a frame 5.0 and especially frame 4.5 down will be docked heavier as they go down. So I feel I would be foolish to raise something knowing it will be docked even before it hits the ground. Until the feeder and packer changes their minds on what they want I will continue to shoot for a frame 5.0 to a 6.5 animal. Again we each have to decide what puts the most dollars in our pockets with the least input. I guess in the end it puzzles me why some will follow the current trend in the polled breed and raise the smaller frame cattle and then blame the dockage on them being Hereford. As I've stated before at the sale I've attended a good framed feeder animal regardless of color will sell very well if they have the desired muscling. That is why I've been so careful in my selection. In the end the steers that the cows wean will be sold as feeders and the heifers retained. The herd is doing good job of doing both now and I don't want to set it back by the selection of a bull. Can't wait to see your selection.
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Post by jayh on Dec 9, 2014 10:12:31 GMT -6
I've stayed outa this thread since it started but............. to me a toad really ain't got much to do with anything other than some damn bull or heifer that is all white muscle and with out it wouldn't weigh jack s%$t. \ personally I've seen 6-7 frame cattle that I would call toads in the rig they were in at the time and if you took the fat off of em they'd be slab sided, shallow gutted, narrow based, short hipped pukes and I've seen pile of the 4's that are being shown right now that if you took the fat, the dry beet pulp and the "management" out of em wouldn't be any better than the most of the stockers that get turned out in the Flint Hills each May. at the same time I've seen 4 frames that were long sided big ribbed, big ribeyed cattle that feed like dreams in the feedyard just like I've seen 6+ frames that did the same. in general 5 and 6 frame cattle will have more growth in them then 4's however it has substantailly more to do with type than frame. it all comes down to if they are the type that can push the scale down on thier own or not, not soley on how much air they got between the ground and their belly. That air doesn't push scales down much does it!
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Post by jayh on Dec 9, 2014 10:22:03 GMT -6
so since this has come up , which ones feed the best and are the best convertors.
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Post by jayh on Dec 9, 2014 10:23:25 GMT -6
I've stayed outa this thread since it started but............. to me a toad really ain't got much to do with anything other than some damn bull or heifer that is all white muscle and with out it wouldn't weigh jack s%$t. \ personally I've seen 6-7 frame cattle that I would call toads in the rig they were in at the time and if you took the fat off of em they'd be slab sided, shallow gutted, narrow based, short hipped pukes and I've seen pile of the 4's that are being shown right now that if you took the fat, the dry beet pulp and the "management" out of em wouldn't be any better than the most of the stockers that get turned out in the Flint Hills each May. at the same time I've seen 4 frames that were long sided big ribbed, big ribeyed cattle that feed like dreams in the feedyard just like I've seen 6+ frames that did the same. in general 5 and 6 frame cattle will have more growth in them then 4's however it has substantailly more to do with type than frame.it all comes down to if they are the type that can push the scale down on thier own or not, not soley on how much air they got between the ground and their belly. never mind
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Post by George on Dec 9, 2014 11:05:16 GMT -6
When I was talking about a Durango son I saw in person he was projected as a yearling to be a mid 5 frame and today as a 4 y/o he is barely a frame 4.0. Another fault of the EPD's and why at this point they are worthless in my opinion. Along with the decreased height you usually see one of two things in cattle. If they retain the muscling they will be shorter coupled and if they make the desired weight they won't do it efficiently. A few years ago, in a newsletter or an article about/from a Hereford breeder, whom I REFUSE to give any credit due, was a blurb about him trying to identify cattle that grew like crazy up to an acceptable (marketable) size, then quit growing. While this son of Durango that you mention may not specifically fit that mold, I do believe that there are cattle out there that can do just that better than others. And I believe they will be in that group whose frame scores decrease as they get older.
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