|
|
The toads
Nov 23, 2014 9:45:32 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by George on Nov 23, 2014 9:45:32 GMT -6
I see this description come up for a couple of years, now.
So, WHO are the toads in the breed?
Come on, those of you who are using this term! Name some names!
|
|
|
|
Post by Glenn on Nov 23, 2014 9:52:21 GMT -6
George, I'll paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know a TOAD when I see one"
|
|
|
|
The toads
Nov 23, 2014 9:57:06 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by George on Nov 23, 2014 9:57:06 GMT -6
George, I'll paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know a TOAD when I see one" Then name the ones that you have seen! |
|
|
|
Post by btlrupert on Nov 23, 2014 10:29:14 GMT -6
Wow George! Thanks for lighting this fuse! I can't wait to hear the answers. I'm probably using some of the "toads"!  |
|
|
|
Post by timbernt on Nov 23, 2014 12:21:42 GMT -6
Durango 4037, Legend 242, several of these low birthweight bulls that should not be bred to anything other than heifers. I could go on, but I probably have alienated enough people. I'm with Glenn, you have been around long enough to know when you see them. It is just a matter of seeing them in person without being fit for a show. If you have a flashback to 1965 they are toads.
|
|
|
|
Post by elkwc on Nov 23, 2014 12:42:58 GMT -6
Durango 4037, Legend 242, several of these low birthweight bulls that should not be bred to anything other than heifers. I could go on, but I probably have alienated enough people. I'm with Glenn, you have been around long enough to know when you see them. It is just a matter of seeing them in person without being fit for a show. If you have a flashback to 1965 they are toads. Very well stated. When I first saw this post an hour ago Durango is the first one to come to mind. I haven't seen him in person but have seen many of his progeny children and grand children. He seems to have enough stretch to him. Many of his progeny I'm seen are compact all the way around. Most have been frame 4 plus or less. There have been a few exceptions. There are some other things I don't like about his progeny but this post is about toads so will stick to that. My first thought when seeing a Durango son that was a among the top sellers as a yearling wonder was have I traveled back to the early 60's. I've seen some others. Seems some breeders seem to turn out more regardless of bloodlines. I saw a Ribeye son that was a borderline toad. Again a top seller as a yearling. The Ribeye son did have a little more stretch and was wider in the pins. But neither him or the Durango son hit the top of my belly and I'm only 5'10". When you can't see the bull because the cows hide them then they are toad candidates especially when you are in a herd of average sized cows. I've seen several Durango daughters and only one was tall enough with enough stretch I wouldn't call her a toad. She was a good cow but out of a very large framed cow. I've seen some others this summer. All I've seen have been polled. Again I have seen that many of the toads seems to originate from certain breeders. The 242's I've seen are borderline toads. Matters what they are crossed with. |
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 23, 2014 13:05:14 GMT -6
The first time I remember seeing the term "toads" on here was right after Hometown and Times A Wasting won in Denver in 2013....and I believe it it was made in reference to the judging results at Denver. Both bulls have sired a number of calves now. What is the opinion of their offspring? Toads???
|
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 23, 2014 13:24:07 GMT -6
Durango 4037, Legend 242, several of these low birthweight bulls that should not be bred to anything other than heifers. I could go on, but I probably have alienated enough people. I'm with Glenn, you have been around long enough to know when you see them. It is just a matter of seeing them in person without being fit for a show. If you have a flashback to 1965 they are toads. Tim, I value your opinion. I'd love to see what other bulls that you'd also put in that "toad" category. The reason this subject interests me so much is that I had cattle that were too large...and also maybe the wrong type...for what my environment could support....especially during the ongoing drought we have experienced. Since I recognized that(6 or 7 years ago), I have made a conscious effort to reduce the mature frame size of my cow herd, and also their mature weight at a similar condition. I believe I have made significant progress...maybe as much in adding "doability" as in reducing frame. At the same time, I am constantly questioning about how far down is going TOO far? I'm pretty happy with where most of my cows are now. And I don't see making changes much in either direction, frame wise, but intend to focus on trying to set the size and doability in. But it is a discussion worth having. I recently had a breeder from the Northwest contact me and say that they couldn't go below a Frame 6 in their area. |
|
|
|
Post by hoekland on Nov 23, 2014 13:26:51 GMT -6
The Mr Hereford get I've seen are borderline toads.
|
|
|
|
Post by timbernt on Nov 23, 2014 13:43:51 GMT -6
George, I am like you in that I have used cattle that were large framed and been disappointed in how they maintained themselves. Many of the Ochs' Canadian genetics fit that category. However, I think we have to realize the current idea that smaller equals easy keepers has to be as big a lie as Obamacare. At least the Ochs' cattle worked if used properly and made many Hereford friends along the way. All these breeders chasing the runts with no red meat are the biggest threat we face as Hereford breeders. I have sampled a lot of genetics and culled most. I will PO a few more people by saying that in my opinion you have to have a large enough herd size to let genetics stratify and enough resources to bite the bullet and cull a high percentage. Great cowherds are made by good cowmen, years of work, and culling. A couple other dink bulls I would not like to see in a pedigree is Boomer 29F or Boulder 57G. I would bet that in the next 5 years Sensation 028X and Revolution 4R will do a lot of damage as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by elkwc on Nov 23, 2014 13:59:25 GMT -6
George, I am like you in that I have used cattle that were large framed and been disappointed in how they maintained themselves. Many of the Ochs' Canadian genetics fit that category. However, I think we have to realize the current idea that smaller equals easy keepers has to be as big a lie as Obamacare. At least the Ochs' cattle worked if used properly and made many Hereford friends along the way. All these breeders chasing the runts with no red meat are the biggest threat we face as Hereford breeders. I have sampled a lot of genetics and culled most. I will PO a few more people by saying that in my opinion you have to have a large enough herd size to let genetics stratify and enough resources to bite the bullet and cull a high percentage. Great cowherds are made by good cowmen, years of work, and culling. A couple other dink bulls I would not like to see in a pedigree is Boomer 29F or Boulder 57G. I would bet that in the next 5 years Sensation 028X and Revolution 4R will do a lot of damage as well. I agree about Revolution 4R from the limited progeny I've seen. I haven't seen one yet that really caught my attention. I've only seen a limited number of Sensation 028X progeny and based on that I compare them to About Time progeny. Stylish but very moderate. Have seen some About Time progeny that is too small frame wise for the average commercial herd in my opinion. I have seen some with larger frames also. Also have concerns about the growth of both 028X and About Time progeny. I feel both are sires that have a special niche and need to be used after much thought. Not bulls that are suitable to cross on a wide variety of cow types and sizes in my opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by elkwc on Nov 23, 2014 14:05:22 GMT -6
The feedlot managers I've talked along with feeders buyers state that currently the preference is one that will feed out and grade in the 1,300 - 1,400# range. So as a commercial breeder I have to consider cow size and bull size in order to produce an animal that will reach that weight effieciently and not be over done if I want top dollar when I sell. At the sales I've attended you will seen the shorter, smaller framed types docked heavily. A stretchier animal with muscling and frame size reap the top dollar. I feel that a bull needs to be a frame score 5.5-6.0. On a frame 5-5.5 cow I feel I can produce the desired product.
|
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 23, 2014 14:10:48 GMT -6
George, I am like you in that I have used cattle that were large framed and been disappointed in how they maintained themselves. Many of the Ochs' Canadian genetics fit that category. However, I think we have to realize the current idea that smaller equals easy keepers has to be as big a lie as Obamacare. At least the Ochs' cattle worked if used properly and made many Hereford friends along the way. All these breeders chasing the runts with no red meat are the biggest threat we face as Hereford breeders. I have sampled a lot of genetics and culled most. I will PO a few more people by saying that in my opinion you have to have a large enough herd size to let genetics stratify and enough resources to bite the bullet and cull a high percentage. Great cowherds are made by good cowmen, years of work, and culling. A couple other dink bulls I would not like to see in a pedigree is Boomer 29F or Boulder 57G. I would bet that in the next 5 years Sensation 028X and Revolution 4R will do a lot of damage as well. I have always been on the fence about 29F. But not size as much as udder quality. However, 57G has always been a bull that I liked, though I never saw him in person. I missed getting a deal on some semen on 57G and I had always regretted it. Just a little bit of Keynote goes a long way in our environment. I think you can get too much Keynote in a pedigree. But Line 1 seems to complement it well. And that is a generalization that can be contradicted based on selection decisions and individual results. Your comment about Sensation intrigues me. He, and his sire 3027, have always interested me a lot. Now I wouldn't give a nickel for Revolution, but I will admit that I have seen some really nice looking stout progeny, which surprises me when I look at his calf and yearling pictures. |
|
|
|
Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Nov 23, 2014 17:23:32 GMT -6
Durango 4037, Legend 242, several of these low birthweight bulls that should not be bred to anything other than heifers. I could go on, but I probably have alienated enough people. I'm with Glenn, you have been around long enough to know when you see them. It is just a matter of seeing them in person without being fit for a show. If you have a flashback to 1965 they are toads. What do you call "toads"? Just small Frame or some other characteristic like Thickness? |
|
|
|
Post by timbernt on Nov 23, 2014 18:08:40 GMT -6
No growth and not enough red meat. Like George said, some of the progeny from 29F may have been big enough to get by. In person he was not very big, but the main fault I found with him is that he was all grease. I could not believe it, so I poked my finger into his side right behind his shoulder. It went in to the second knuckle and never did find muscle. So yes, thickness would be the criteria if you are cattleman enough to distinguish between fed on and bred on thickness. I have yet to find the one of the new generation breeders who can. And a lot of the older Horned breeders seem to be losing it as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by whiteface on Nov 23, 2014 20:34:17 GMT -6
Now I wouldn't give a nickel for Revolution, but I will admit that I have seen some really nice looking stout progeny, which surprises me when I look at his calf and yearling pictures. George do you have picks of Revolution 4R as a calf and yearling? I've never seen them before and always wondered what he looked like. All the 4R progeny I've had were some of the best but its a limited pool. Hometown's #'s look good as far as ratios on a pretty good amount of progeny. I thought he looked good in Denver. What about him, Catapult or Redeem? Toads?  |
|
|
|
The toads
Nov 23, 2014 21:12:19 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by btlrupert on Nov 23, 2014 21:12:19 GMT -6
How about 755T. Is he a "toad"? Now that we have bashed the polled bulls, let's here which horned bulls are "toads" ? Maybe they are all on target..?? |
|
|
|
Post by elkwc on Nov 23, 2014 21:32:39 GMT -6
Durango 4037, Legend 242, several of these low birthweight bulls that should not be bred to anything other than heifers. I could go on, but I probably have alienated enough people. I'm with Glenn, you have been around long enough to know when you see them. It is just a matter of seeing them in person without being fit for a show. If you have a flashback to 1965 they are toads. What do you call "toads"? Just small Frame or some other characteristic like Thickness? I imagine each person has a different opinion about what a toad is. To me they are basically the same as what some breeders used to call overgrown dwarfs. One criteria I use is when I enter a herd of say cows weighing from 1150 -1350# and the bull is shorter than the cows sometimes by several inches they are a toad/overgrown dwarf. Out of six bulls I've seen in person from the prominent polled herd in KS only one of them was taller than the cows. The other five you couldn't see at all. The cows hid them. And these weren't tall or extremely large framed cows. Small frame is one criteria. Some I've seen have some thickness although like others have stated many times it has been fed on rather than natural muscle. Compactness, short legs many times are found on the toads. |
|
|
|
Post by elkwc on Nov 23, 2014 21:38:13 GMT -6
George do you have picks of Revolution 4R as a calf and yearling? I've never seen them before and always wondered what he looked like. All the 4R progeny I've had were some of the best but its a limited pool. Hometown's #'s look good as far as ratios on a pretty good amount of progeny. I thought he looked good in Denver. What about him, Catapult or Redeem? Toads? Based on the Redeem progeny I've seen they aren't toads. They have been among the better overall polled cattle I've looked at. All the bulls I've seen have been from a 5 frame and higher. Haven't seen any Catapults so won't comment on them. I haven't seen any horned cattle so far that I would call toads. I'm sure there are some out there I just haven't seen them yet. The problem I see is many of the polled breeders are following the show ring trend and not what the feeder and packer desires and they could care less about what the commercial cowman wants. |
|
|
|
Post by George on Nov 23, 2014 23:40:33 GMT -6
Revolution as a calf:  They also have this picture on the AHA website:  but I have seen another taken at about a year that showed him as a lighter muscled bull -like his calf picture does. |
|
|
|
Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Nov 24, 2014 5:53:56 GMT -6
Revolution as a calf: I call this type of cattle greyhounds. |
|
|
|
The toads
Nov 24, 2014 9:16:06 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by herfdog on Nov 24, 2014 9:16:06 GMT -6
How about 755T. Is he a "toad"? Now that we have bashed the polled bulls, let's here which horned bulls are "toads" ? Maybe they are all on target..?? I will comment on 755T since I just seen him in September. He is moderate guessing 5-5.5 frame heavy muscled rear end with good depth and has good length to him. He is out breeding cows like any other herd bull. He is very sound. I wouldn't call him a toad with the size of his body he just doesn't have the long legs. Accelerated genetics has him weiging in at 2250. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 10:11:16 GMT -6
Maybe it's just the cows some people have bred Revolution to, who knows... but we've not had anything frame under a 5.2 out of him and all the Revolution bulls we've had have been mid 6 to low 7 frame bulls with some good muscle. Like George mentioned, everything we've had out of Revolution usually are the best calves in the crop too so I'm going by what has worked well in our breeding program. All in the eye of the beholder what someone considers small I guess, I know some guys that want their cows to be 7 frame cows but a mid 5 frame these days is not a bad size cow if she's built well. Personal opinion is somewhere around a 6 frame for a female is a good size. For as wide used as Revolution has been people must be pleased with the calves they are getting else he wouldn't have the most registrations for a sire in the breed.
We must be doing something wrong if this Revolution son we bred would be considered a toad. He was a 6.5 frame at yearling, his dam was a 5.9 frame at yearling and he's not lacking natural muscle, thickness, or bone and as you can tell here as a 2 year old he definitely hasn't been fattened up on feed either. I'll have to dig through some old photos I have and find one of him as a calf but you could tell from birth he was built well and stood out on the pasture. Have another Revolution bull in our sale pen this winter that will probably frame a mid 6 to possibly 7 too I bet.
|
|
|
|
Post by hoekland on Nov 24, 2014 12:49:04 GMT -6
Just to clarify my opinion. I don't mind a smaller framed animal as long as it has natural thickness and muscle, I just don't like any size animal without natural thickness, but if I was forced to farm with cows without muscle, I'd much rather have frame 4's than 7's.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 14:37:13 GMT -6
I will agree with you there hoekland. What an ideal animal should look like is all in the eye of the beholder because what one guy thinks is an ideal frame size and thickness another guy will say that animal is too big/small for them, etc. I know 1 one that won't buy a bull unless he is at least close to a 7 frame or bigger. Sometimes when you get in that 7 frame range you sacrifice some muscling and thickness. Then there are guys out there you could have a 5.8 frame bull with all kinds of thickness to him and he'd tell you he's too short/not big enough.
Just throwing this out there for timbernt, we used a Boomer 29F son for 3 years. Had some calving ease issues with him which is why we stopped using him but we still have 3 females in the herd sired by him and I'd have to say they are probably 3 of the thickest females we have. Frame scores vary a little, 5.1, 6.8, and 7.1 and the smallest framed of the 3 probably is because her mother was a smaller frame Enhancer 2D daughter but she probably packs the most thickness and depth of rib than the 2 bigger framed cows. Maybe the 29F son we used got a little extra thickness from his dam's side but 29F surely had to contribute to some of that too you'd think. Durango 4037 also made this thread yet he sired CRR About Time who is right up there with Revolution with number of registrations and is getting pricier to buy semen on as well. He too also goes back to Boomer 29F. Maybe this is just another one of those rip on the polleds thread, I dunno... Dad likes to use the term "the proof is in the pudding" which if you see progeny of a sire that performs well and looks and plays the part then what else do you need as proof? I'm sure for every success story there is a failure to go with it, if raising cattle was as easy as matching the same cow and bull up we'd all be breeding national champions and making millions right?
|
|
