XTC 5C TOTAL RECALL ET 66A

[timbernt]

Here is a video clip of the 66A bull purchased this weekend with Wichman Herefords from XTC Herefords (bltherf). Can't wait to see how he does in Missouri.

[Glenn]

3 Members doing business together. That is awesome! Good luck with your purchase. Where is he going to physically live?

Edited to add: He looks good.

[bltherf]

One thing I don't have to add is how bad our video skills are!! We used this bull on a field of our purebred heifers for his calving ease and lower b.w. profile. The 5C sire was a trait leader in Canada for low b.w and milk. Should work just fine for this in Missouri as I find the birth wts on our northern bulls usually falls considerably as they go south. Thanks to Tim and Justin for the confidence in our program.

[jayh]

Looks good.Be real interesting to see him about July if he goes to fescue pasture. Although my pastures are very hot yours may not b. I really like him

[timbernt]

The plan for now is for him to go to Billings to be collected and then to Justin's. Sometime before April he will make his way to Missouri. His sire (5C) was in MO for about a year and had no problems. His mother is an 87M daughter and from what I saw of those cows at XTC and Lilybrook 3 years ago I think they are easy keepers and those type seem to adapt well. At any rate, he should be here in July for you to see him, Jay. As you say, time will tell.

[bllcattle]

Buying from good outfit.

[Carlos (frmaiz)]

Nov 16, 2014 15:14:19 GMT -6 timbernt said:

Here is a video clip of the 66A bull purchased this weekend with Wichman Herefords from XTC Herefords (bltherf). Can't wait to see how he does in Missouri.

What's your stance on eye and scrotum pigmentation?
I bought a bull two months ago that lacks eye and scrotum pigmentation, almost exactly as the one in video.
I am not very confortable about it.

[timbernt]

My take is that he is pretty much straight Hereford. Joking aside, I would like to see a small ring around the eyes. I would like to see a brown scrotum as well mostly because it makes his testicles look larger. Eye pigment probably has a real benefit for cancer eye. However, we all have to decide what a bull can offer and what tradeoffs we are willing to make to incorporate those traits. In this case I believe the BW, milk, and durability are more important than the lack of pigment. In my opinion, so many breeders have concentrated on pigment it is readily available and can be added in one generation if necessary. I actually am repulsed by the amount of atypical pigment so many breeders seem to like. But I have proven many times to be an old crab that is outside the mainstream.

[guffeygal]

Would you agree that eye set and "The Hooded Eye" might be more important? Pigment is easier to sell. Pigment does not seem to be as heritable as one would think.
You are probably not located where snow burned udders are a real problem. Is there any real data to support the scrotal pigment udder pigment corelation?

[bltherf]

You raise some great points guffeygal. These are issues I have been observing and considering in my breeding decisions for years. I do believe the hooded eye is the most important factor for eye health. But as you say, pigment is easier to sell,it's easy to observe and measure. I will say after many years of using dark scrotum bulls there is no correlation between dark scrotums and pigmented udders. I know a 90 yr old Hereford breeder in the foothills of Alberta(snow country) who says the only way to get pigmented tests and udders is to select for pigment on the teats of the bull. I think he is right. As well observing t he bulls teat placement will give you an indication of the resulting females udders. The big drive towards more pigment in Herefords now I beleuve it totally fuelled by their in use in cross-breeding programs. Almost all other breeds are solid colored,they don't like much white . Certainly eye pigment can help with eye health,but I don't think we need raccoon rings on them all
Although the vid on this bull does a poor job of showing it,he actually does have a light ring of darker skin circling the eye. Hard to get on lighter colored cattle,and possibly enough for most climates. I don't think pigment comes easily to Herefords, they have been bred for 200 years without it, I find it needs several generations to really start to fix it in.

[larso]

Your right bltherf, a bull with 100/100 pigment won't always throw you calves that way and research shows that pigment only contributes to about 10% mitigation of eye cancer, a well hooded eye is more important. But then try telling "Joe Blow" who comes to buy a bull that and he thinks your from another planet .

[strojanherefords]

Personally, I would like to have a bit more pigment than I do currently but there are too many more pressing issues to put much selection pressure on pigmentation. My goal is to have as good of a cowherd as possible and raising bulls is secondary. I have little riding of whether I sell bulls or not. So, I could care less what Joe Blow says and I feel that I have better cattle for it.

[larso]

bltherf, would you care to say more on teat placement on the bull? I have noticed the teats can vary positional wise ie in front of scrotum or further back, even on the scrotum itself, and then how that effects udder shape on his daughters?

[bltherf]

I'll give u want I was taught by that 90 yr old breeder and what I have found to be true in my own experiences. Is it scientific? No. But neither are a lot of cattle evaluation techniques many people have and continue to use. It will be free advice, so probably worth what you paid for it.
A bull usually has four teats ,two on front and back of the scrotum I like to see a good spacing between them,same as I would on a young female. Most importantly I like to check for size, trying to avoid the larger types. If you find ones you like with pigment on them as well ,that's a bonus.
I always check a bull before I use him,seems they follow the general udder type of their mothers.

There you go, now I'm going to develop an EPD for this,sell it to some genomics company and get rich!

[Carlos (frmaiz)]

Nov 19, 2014 6:13:51 GMT -6 bltherf said:

A bull usually has four teats ,two on front and back of the scrotum I like to see a good spacing between them,same as I would on a young female. Most importantly I like to check for size, trying to avoid the larger types. If you find ones you like with pigment on them as well ,that's a bonus.
I always check a bull before I use him,seems they follow the general udder type of their mothers.

There you go, now I'm going to develop an EPD for this,sell it to some genomics company and get rich!

It may be not scientific but it looks as there is plenty of Wisdom in your observation.
Just to be sure: the good spacing between the pair of teats that you look for, is it between the front and back pairs or the left and right ones, or both pairs?
At what age do you check bull's teats?

[bltherf]

Mostly left to right and I don't like to see them right on or real close to the scrotum. Mostly just look for smaller size and general good spacing. I don't think age is a critical consideration once the bull has reached puberty. Spacing doesn't change,size is relative to age.

[larso]

I've spoken to an old breeder who's opinion and knowledge I respect immensely and he totally agrees with you and found it hard to understand why it wasn't common knowledge. It makes you wonder why the wisdom these old cattlemen have is not appreciated or sort after more. They lived, they talked, they breathed and they ate the dust their cattle made. They could tell if there was something wrong with an animal from a distance , they could "read them" and yet so often their judgment's are rarely sort. The big agriculture companies want the young uni graduate who can handle a laptop and have some theatrical knowledge from a text book and becomes the font of all knowledge over night. ( I'm buggered if I know any more ! )

[Glenn]

Larso,you make a great point and one that has bothered me for over a decade and I guess the bottom line is that "common sense" and "cow sense" doesn't butter anybody's bread. Now EPD's and Genomics you can butter bread for Universities, Breed Associations, and trade rags.......ect and so forth.....

[bltherf]

I remember as a kid looking at some bulls with Jim Hole, a famous old Alberta breeder He grabbed the tail of this bull in the pen and said, never buy a rat-tailed bull son,,terrible bas#%**+s!,he went in to talk about smooth, ivory colored horns and feet,coarse neck hair and a host of other small things to look for when evaluating stock. But now we are just supposed to quantify everything with an EPD. Numbers are something anybody can read and compare. The old stockmans observations don't seem to get passed on and used as much anymore.

[larso]

I'm not against science and learning, my father was a Professor of Veterinary Science and was head of the faculty at Sydney Uni, so I grew up under that influence. I never saw anybody bring a horse to my father and not go away with out knowing exactly what was wrong with it and how to fix it, they teach his surgery methods today but it was my father who encouraged me to seek out the knowledge and experience of the old breeders, he respected that knowledge and I'm quite sure he would turn in his grave if he saw what was happening today.

[hrndherf]

Nov 16, 2014 19:26:38 GMT -6 timbernt said:

The plan for now is for him to go to Billings to be collected and then to Justin's. Sometime before April he will make his way to Missouri. His sire (5C) was in MO for about a year and had no problems. His mother is an 87M daughter and from what I saw of those cows at XTC and Lilybrook 3 years ago I think they are easy keepers and those type seem to adapt well. At any rate, he should be here in July for you to see him, Jay. As you say, time will tell.

And hopefully in 6 or 7 years he is done in MO so he can spent 6 or 7 years here under "The Big Sky".

[timbernt]

[timbernt]

[timbernt]

[timbernt]