Sunflower Supreme & CEd accuracy

[shumakerherefords]

Had an inquiry about semen on one of my bulls for use in the Sunflower Supreme Replacement Heifer Program. This is a bred heifer program being promoted by KState. I believe several other states have similar programs. Presumably producers willing to jump through all the requirement hoops can receive a significant premium for these bred heifers especially if they have been AIed to a good bull. You can see the requirements here www.sunflowersupreme.org/p.aspx?tabid=17 The first sale will be in Parsons on November 14. I have heard speculation that these might bring $3000/head.

Anyhow my bull does not meet the Calving Ease direct accuracy requirement of 0.60. I did a search of the AHA database and discovered that only 460 Hereford bulls meet that 0.60 accuracy requirement and about 2/3rds of those were born over 20 years ago and probably don't have semen available any more. Did some more checking on some bulls that I am familiar with and was surprised at how low the CEd accuracy was. 

That prompted me to email Stacy Sanders at AHA to ask how the CEd accuracy was calculated. He answered that that CEd accuracy was calculated just like all the others such as the Birth Weight EPD accuracy. However unlike birth weight where every calf is different that if all calving eases for a contemporary group are the same (ie. 1 for no assist) then the reported calving eases are not used. 

If you go back and look at the requirements again you will notice that some breed associations don't publish a calving ease EPD and for those breeds the requirement is only to have a birth weight EPD accuracy of 0.60. It is much easier to get the 0.60 accuracy for birth weight EPD, it only takes a few dozen calves from several herds reporting the birth weights.

[strojanherefords]

Let me get this right, if I have for the sake of argument 10 cows and you did not have any problems calving; then neither the bull nor the cow would get any credit for calving ease.

[shumakerherefords]

"For the data in a contemporary group to get used there have to be differences observed. If everything is turned in as a 1 then the data can't be used."

[bookcliff]

one more reason that EPD's are nothing more than rook. who ever thought up this statistical hoax ought to have calved out a couple hundred heifers each spring like I used to do.




"oh, ok, I'll breed a portion of my matings so I have to pull some calves so the beancounters have variation to work with" BITE ME..............


I have said it before and I'll say it again, those who have never personally done something themselves have no business making governances, rules, or codes for that very subject.

[dougthorson]

There is one thing that can't be fixed
can't be argued with
can't be reasoned with
can't be beat out
can't be educated
can't be stopped

STUPID

and what irritates the Hell out of me is that at my age it still suprises me from time to time.

[George]

And breeders PAY to perpetuate this kind of stupidity?

[Deleted]

Sounds like a good topic to be brought up at the Hereford Genetic Summit. Doesn't make sense why you can't use the data if they are all 1, are we not trying to breed for calving ease? If you get a large number of calving ease 1 reported on a bull does that not validate that he is indeed a good calving ease bull and the EPD accuracy should reflect that? That's almost like saying if a majority of the birth weights on a bull are reported back all within a 5-10 lb difference in weight that it can't be used because there isn't enough variance of weights.

Out of curiosity I went back and looked up what we reported for CE on our herd bull who has proven to be possibly the best bull we've used for calving ease. Over 3 calf crops all 1's for CE except for 1 calf that was a 3 because it was an 87lb bull calf that I believe either was backwards or had a foot tucked under and needed assistance to get the calf in the right position. Average BW over 3 years of calves on this bull is 80lb. So his EPDs right now he's a 4.6 CE with just a .14 accuracy and BW is 0.6 with a .48 accuracy. Makes perfect sense huh?

[Deleted]

To add to what I just wrote, so out of curiosity I looked up what the accuracies were on a yearling bull we had GE-EPD done on and had 3 calves out of this spring from the small group he was used cleanup on. All were 1 CE's (actual BW of 83, 79, 91) and well somehow since he is GE-EPD enhanced I guess that somehow makes his CE accuracy 2.5 times more accurate than the 4 year old that is not GE-EPD even though we have a much larger sample size from the 4 year old bull than a bull that his first 3 calves just hit the ground this spring? CE of 0.6 at .33 accuracy and BW 4.9 with .46 accuracy.

We do pay attention to EPDs as part of our performance evaluations but at times even we question just how some of these get calculated when you have actual data on hand that contradicts the EPD values for that animal. It's never going to be a perfect science but this is a very valid topic IMO when we're all collecting calving data and it's not reflecting the EPD values and accuracies of that animal when you can go back and show where there is or isn't calving ease consistency based off the data you are collecting.

[shumakerherefords]

Well I won't attend the Show Boat summit but I hope someone brings this topic up for discussion. It just boggles the mind that data on calving ease gets discarded because there is no variation.

[George]

I thought a main purpose of a breed association was to help its members promote and sell their cattle?

When a breed association is hindering its own members from the ability to participate in these programs and sell their cattle to those folks who are receiving this aid, because of an added EPD value that only reaches an acceptable accuracy level in the very few most proven sires of the breed, it is time to either do away with that EPD entirely(and just use BW EPD) or to make a change in the "suits" that manage the association who would support keeping such a hindrance in the EPD panel.

[Deleted]

The term that most aptly applies is disintermediation. One of these days you will see this on a website:

You do not need to know the first thing about cattle. You do not need to learn anything from the experience of actually doing it. Just use the numbers provided by the internet and you cannot go wrong. Those guys who learned things the hard way are stupid.

Hereford heifers are already selling for $3000/each, you do not need that sale. You consign a heifer to them and you may regret it for years.

50 Bred Hereford Heifers-Buyer Takes All=$3000/each
www.cattlerange.com/408C870-201/408C870-201.html