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Post by elkwc on Aug 15, 2014 13:47:16 GMT -6
I haven't seen Perfect Timing in person but saw some of his calves. Weren't that impressed with them. And when talking about horned and L1 breeders switching to polled cattle I know many that won't. I recently was visiting with Glen Britton and he stated he won't be switching. There are a few good polled bulls out there but finding one that is good and doesn't have something lurking in the background you don't want is another issue.
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Post by kph on Aug 15, 2014 14:07:41 GMT -6
256 bulls after a 120 years of breeding.....thanks for proving my point..... No, your point was almost zero, your other point was you dont know of any Line One breeder that would consider a polled bull. I think if own one you're considering him.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 14:11:29 GMT -6
Lol
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Post by George on Aug 15, 2014 14:35:52 GMT -6
I haven't seen Perfect Timing in person but saw some of his calves. Weren't that impressed with them. And when talking about horned and L1 breeders switching to polled cattle I know many that won't. I recently was visiting with Glen Britton and he stated he won't be switching. There are a few good polled bulls out there but finding one that is good and doesn't have something lurking in the background you don't want is another issue. Did you look at any of Glen Britton's cattle? I've been trying to get up there to look at them.
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Post by George on Aug 15, 2014 14:37:19 GMT -6
256 bulls after a 120 years of breeding.....thanks for proving my point..... No, your point was almost zero, your other point was you dont know of any Line One breeder that would consider a polled bull. I think if own one you're considering him. I really don't think you'll see Jack Holden using Perfect Timing on his Line 1 cowherd - but I guess I could be wrong!
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Post by larso on Aug 15, 2014 16:22:43 GMT -6
I'm very hesitant to enter this debate and some of you are probably thinking who is this clown from 'Down under' and what would he know? I'll where that, but there are good and bad points in both horn and polled genetics, the real issue is what ever I'm breeding, breed them right. Then wether he has a set of horns or a polled head won't mean a 'rat's backside"
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Post by moon on Aug 15, 2014 17:28:13 GMT -6
Oleen Bros. (Jan & Arden) sampled a polled bull from KEG Herefords a few years ago and sold a few bulls in their sale but only that one bull. If they kept any females it was very few but I seem to recall one showing up in a black hereford pedigree from Oleens. Gene Wiese, and another labeled as a HERD BULL on HT, both told me over 10 years ago that in their opinions ultimately most Herefords would become horned pedigreed polled bulls. No debate just FYI.
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Post by strojanherefords on Aug 15, 2014 19:46:56 GMT -6
Holden says that breeding one of their bulls to an unrelated Hereford cow will result in the same hybrid vigor that crossbreeding will accomplish. And I think it is reasonable to assume that L1, Polled and Canadian herefords are sufficiently unrelated to this threshold. I believe that a bull that crosses lines is little different than a baldy bull. And who would use one of them? I believe their will be a "jump" when used on unrelated lines, but I do NOT believe it to be equal to an F-1 between breeds, and CERTAINLY not equal to crossing a Bos Taurus on a Bos Inducus JMO What about Angus x a black Simmental, Limousin, or Gelbvieh? The larger point I was trying to make is that an outcross bull will inevitably throw better phenotype than linebred bull with the same genetic merit, and in doing so will displace equally good genetics. So an 1/8th blood polled bull does not bother me much but the profusion of "hybrid" bulls do.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 20:13:00 GMT -6
I knew that but wasn't posting it up. You can deal with them for making it public. Lol. Lets just say 'failed experiment' was what I heard.,.
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Post by kph on Aug 15, 2014 20:33:52 GMT -6
No. I think you are right. I was mistaken. They did sell one polled female in their last cow sale. Never sold a polled bull that I know of. Of course lots of polled breeders buy those cows at their cow sales at ridiculous prices and flush the hell out of them to polled show bulls. Holdens are listed as the breeder of Perfect Timing and the seller in the Denver sale, so yes, they did breed and sell a polled, non Line One bull. And the world didn't end. And the breed didn't collapse. Just a small step in the right direction.
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Post by jayh on Aug 15, 2014 20:53:52 GMT -6
No. I think you are right. I was mistaken. They did sell one polled female in their last cow sale. Never sold a polled bull that I know of. Of course lots of polled breeders buy those cows at their cow sales at ridiculous prices and flush the hell out of them to polled show bulls. Holdens are listed as the breeder of Perfect Timing and the seller in the Denver sale, so yes, they did breed and sell a polled, non Line One bull. And the world didn't end. And the breed didn't collapse. Just a small step in the right direction. Lol. Breed the horns off they say. They will come. Lol. Sorry.
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Post by fivestarherefords on Aug 15, 2014 21:37:48 GMT -6
256 bulls after a 120 years of breeding.....thanks for proving my point..... Did I fall asleep and miss the point where the AHA ran DNA on all registered bulls to determine if they are homo polled?
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Post by pwbedy on Aug 15, 2014 21:53:41 GMT -6
U people all forget that Eugene Henkel raises the Polled Line 1s originated from the Florida test station!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 4:09:13 GMT -6
I saw this on another site......(awwwww come on JW) Glenn sorry to take so long to reply. I usually only get on the boards in the morning when I drink coffee and during the day when I am procrastinating. To me this debate is amusing and it's actually a very common thing in registered animals. In Brazil the debate over the purity of the national dog split the official registry for almost twenty years. I do not have a horse in this race other than I am going to use whatever works. We have been raising cattle since the 1820s. The Barrow plantation where the first Brahman were imported is right down the street. I doubt it would have lasted if we had put all of our chips on just polled or just horned stock. But nobody has tried to make a living off strictly cattle for at least 100 years, so what do I know? Hahahaha
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Post by Glenn on Aug 16, 2014 7:26:15 GMT -6
Really all you guys make good points. I sure am not against any of you polled breeders. I hope you do great with your programs. I was just being honest with my two issues with the biggest being why do polled breeders continually inject horned genetics? I just naturally admire the folks that seem to have a program. Guys like Miller, Alexander, Henkel on the polled side and Deewalls and Coopers and Holden's on the horned side. People that have confidence in their breeding abilities and don't have to constantly hunt around for the next outcross to fix or add something.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 8:37:54 GMT -6
Really all you guys make good points. I sure am not against any of you polled breeders. I hope you do great with your programs. I was just being honest with my two issues with the biggest being why do polled breeders continually inject horned genetics? I just naturally admire the folks that seem to have a program. Guys like Miller, Alexander, Henkel on the polled side and Deewalls and Coopers and Holden's on the horned side. People that have confidence in their breeding abilities and don't have to constantly hunt around for the next outcross to fix or add something. I think we all admire the folks that have a vision and the program to get them there. To answer your question the outcross bull presents more breeding options for those trying to diverge and submerge traits that need improvement. You can either breed back into the polled or the horned pedigree to get a bull with both some hybrid vigor and more consistent type. From an accountant viewpoint you have expanded your registered bull buyer base. Purify and purge takes time, resources, and very large numbers of animals to work. The most important thing for the average working bull is to stay healthy while breeding as many females as fast as possible. The best way to keep your vision alive is by providing the bulls that do just that. Just right off the top of my head I think the polled could add humidity tolerance to the horned. The census I read on US Farm Report stated that the southeastern United States is now the 2cnd largest cattle producing region. That means higher humidity. What I think we all dislike are the outcross on outcross on outcross in the pedigree until you lose all consistent type and the vigor, too. My take on Perfect Timing as a true newbie to the breed is that he is the epitome of a maternal breeding who was intended to go head to head against the new by the numbers Black Angus sires for use on black females. I think it was a smart move from a business perspective to give people an option for lbw and CE other than what was available. It took some gumption for a famous outfit like HH to do the breeding and promote it even though About Time has a lot of fans.
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Post by George on Aug 16, 2014 12:25:07 GMT -6
I just have a hard time wrapping my head around why a pointy head is so dang important... Glenn, since you have decided to leave the horns on your cattle, I can understand why you might have a harder time understanding the motivation. We never dehorned our Anxiety 4th cattle either. Since I was raised up with horned Herefords, I do have a natural bias toward them. When it comes to pedigrees and knowing the animals in them, particularly those animals born 10 or more years back, I am infinitely more comfortable with the horned pedigrees. I have seen many of the animals in them, or at least some pictures of them in the HJ/HW over the last 50 years. But I'm as much a novice in most of the polled Herefords pedigrees as anyone. I know who Keynote was, because I had a son (horned), but the only experience I have with many of the polled bulls from the previous Millennium is what I've read or what someone has shared with me. I've visited Jim Reed's website a lot in effort to get a visual of bulls back in the pedigree of polled Hereford cattle. As far as the importance of the "pointy head", it is strictly personal preference with me. Marketability or what OTHERS might think has little to do with my choice. Since I got back into the business, I have only had dehorned or polled Hereford cows. I think that they are quite a bit easier to work with and they cause less problems with each other than the horned Hereford cattle that I was raised with did. Since I wait until weaning to dehorn, that process is particularly unappealing to me and I would love to eliminate the horns naturally. I'm looking at making some changes where I can start using the dehorning paste and perhaps the importance of them being naturally polled will lessen if I can successfully do that. Ideally, yes, I'd like to have a herd with 100% "pointy heads". That said, I'm not going to sacrifice my other breeding goals or throw away my base and the progress that I've made in my herd over 10 years just to reach that one goal. I think it is important...but not THAT important! And I still think I can eventually get to the 100% "pointy heads" without making those sacrifices. I sure hope to get there without injecting so much outside blood that I end up with the heterozygous genetic mess that most of these "multipliers" have in their herds today - the results of breeding the newest EPD wonder to the last EPD wonder's daughters ... OR... the current showring champion to the daughters of the last showring champion. I think both of those breeding strategies are producing cattle that are mostly unusable in a lot of cow/calf producer's home environments. And yes, folks, those are MOST of the cattle that you currently see in all those full color ads in the Hereford World. They pretty well fit into one category or the other - "EPD Wonders" or "Cooler Cattle" - and they pretty well ALL are bred to be unpredictable reproducers. When using these cattle for breeding, the line from Forrest Gump comes to mind here - "You never know what you're going to get!" And all this hybrid vigor talk is fine and dandy when you are talking about producing terminal cattle. As far as producing breeding seedstock goes, hybrid vigor is a bunch of crap. The one major exception to that genetic inconsistency in the breed is the Line 1 cattle...and, of course, in lesser numbers, the cattle of breeders like Deewall, Miller, and the rest of those BREEDERS who are purposely breeding predictability into their cattle. DAMN! I've got to stop! My posts are starting to resemble DOC HARRIS's!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 13:20:23 GMT -6
This may seem off topic but it is relevant because we as cattlemen produce something that can be measured, weighed, and is wanted.
If you make cars you have to go to auto shows. If you make clothes you have to go to fashion shows. If you make video games you have to go to electronics shows. Etc.
If you are a seedstock producer you may have to figure out how to participate in cattle shows. No matter what you may think of them personally you have to admire the people who do all of the hard work whether it is showing at the state fair or holding a first class bull sale. Like it or not it is part of selling registered stock in the 21st century.
Ya'll have to admit that if it was your bull or cow as a parent of a Denver champion the shows would be the most important part of cattle. hahaha
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Post by George on Aug 16, 2014 13:47:09 GMT -6
Ya'll have to admit that if it was your bull or cow as a parent of a Denver champion the shows would be the most important part of cattle. hahaha I will absolutely, positively NOT admit to that! Of the four herd bulls that I have owned that were NOT home born and raised, three of the four were show bulls that had some pretty stellar outings in their day. To me that doesn't mean that much - other than their phenotype is pretty darn good. What they have done as sires, and how their progeny perform in my environment, is FAR MORE IMPORTANT to me.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 16, 2014 17:32:59 GMT -6
Just a side note and nothing to do with our 'argument' here, but I think horns (actual horns not dehorned horn cattle) help a cow dissipate heat which is extremely important in my environment. I think I noted before but in 2011 we had 110 days over 100 degrees Fahrenheit.
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Post by strojanherefords on Aug 17, 2014 10:54:02 GMT -6
I just hope that we will not be forced to go polled, as is happening in parts of Europe.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 12:59:27 GMT -6
And the Angus is going to be HOMOZYGOUS. Hell what gets me is there are almost zero homozygous polled bulls. After a century you would think the POLLED BREEDERS could have at least bred the horns off FOR GOOD. Just one of their many failures, I guess..... Of course when you're starting with a crossbred bull to begin with......... The #1 bull for registrations right now is homozygous polled which is Revolution 4R. SHF York is also homozygous polled. Big reason as a polled breeder why we like those 2 bulls for AI, we have a few horn genes in some of our cow's pedigrees so we like to match them up with homozygous bulls when we AI as they sometimes throw horned calves if matched up with a bull with a horn gene in their pedigree somewhere. Probably more out there than you think, I just did an animal inquiry on the AHA website and searched for DNA tested homozygous polled and male for criteria and comes up with 286 results. Another popular bull right now 719T is on that list, so are several EFBEEF bulls such as Foremost and Tested and Redeem, several NJW Trust bulls, those are just some of the ones that stood out on the list that I've seen people using so there are more out there than you think.
KPH, completely agree with your statement. Surprised this hasn't turned ugly like it could. I never get why there is so much animosity between some of the horned and polled guys. It's all a matter of preference and breeding goals and not sure why some breeders feel the need to say 1 kind of Hereford is far superior than the other. Would rather we use that energy to promote the breed as a whole not tear each other apart. When horned and polled cattle sell well it's good for both sides. We're all trying to promote the value of white faced calves and the benefits of using a Hereford bull.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Aug 17, 2014 17:50:40 GMT -6
Just a side note and nothing to do with our 'argument' here, but I think horns (actual horns not dehorned horn cattle) help a cow dissipate heat which is extremely important in my environment. I think I noted before but in 2011 we had 110 days over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. You may considering registering your next bull as Prairie Domino Radiator 100F
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Post by moon on Aug 18, 2014 13:04:44 GMT -6
Glenn, You are on to something about heat dissipation. Certain breeders have told me that taking off horns can decrease cold tolerance as well. I remember taking horns off some char/cross cows back in the 80's and knocked the heck out of their milk flow until calved the next year.
Baker Hereford Ranch was left off list, but just looked at their Final Dispersion catalog on HerefordAmerica. No polled but a treasure trove of semen at $10.00 per straw. Couple of Lund bred sires, CH Domino 560, 70's model Miles City bulls, and even a few Mark Donald crosses, all proven sires and some should still work today. Also, 100 straws of GB L1 Domino 175E.
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Post by strojanherefords on Aug 18, 2014 20:09:42 GMT -6
Can anybody tell me about JNHR DIAMOND ET 414B, SNS 47G Silver Dandy 11J, or Bar-N Centurion 921J?
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