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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 9:13:50 GMT -6
I saw this on another site......(awwwww come on JW)
>>The better looking bulls coming from the horned programs usually have some polled in the pedigree. The name brand Line 1 ranches have been using them with good results for a few years.<<<
So who are these NAME BRAND line one breeders using polled bulls?
1. Coopers?
2. Holdens?
3. Miles City?
4. Jamison?
5. Coleman?
6. Pedretti?
7. Oleens?
8. Debtor?
Fact is I can't think of any Line One breeder who would consider a polled bull......
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 9:39:00 GMT -6
so you mean actual polled bull not polled influenced right? the horned herds i've seen that are dabbling with polled bulls kinda hit and miss see a kick/bloom almost like crossbreeding. my question nowadays is will the hetero females be better than they are... ie, a so so hereford and angus will typically make a f1 female that masks the faults of either and a better individual. Fact is I can't think of any Line One breeder who would consider a polled bull...... Read more: herefordtalk.com/post/new/2229#ixzz3ATY0Kg81polled bull, not polled influence cause i think most on your list have used polled influence bull. here is a link for you glennie linkwho is JW? |
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Post by jayh on Aug 15, 2014 9:40:53 GMT -6
I saw this on another site......(awwwww come on JW) >>The better looking bulls coming from the horned programs usually have some polled in the pedigree. The name brand Line 1 ranches have been using them with good results for a few years.<<< So who are these NAME BRAND line one breeders using polled bulls? 1. Coopers? 2. Holdens? 3. Miles City? 4. Jamison? 5. Coleman? 6. Pedretti? 7. Oleens? 8. Debtor? Fact is I can't think of any Line One breeder who would consider a polled bull......[/font] That's funny. I thought Holdens used a polled bull on a cow and had sold intrest in her or her bull calf? It may have Just been a Holden bred cow that was bought but I thought I seen it in one of those shiny magazines LOL. May have been daydreaming to. |
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 10:00:03 GMT -6
No. I think you are right. I was mistaken. They did sell one polled female in their last cow sale. Never sold a polled bull that I know of.
Of course lots of polled breeders buy those cows at their cow sales at ridiculous prices and flush the hell out of them to polled show bulls.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 10:10:10 GMT -6
>the horned herds i've seen that are dabbling with polled bulls kinda hit and miss see a kick/bloom almost like crossbreeding. my question nowadays is will the hetero females be better than they are... ie, a so so Hereford and Angus will typically make a f1 female that masks the faults of either and a better individual.<<
I think you are on the right track. I think outcrossing tight lines or crossbreeding gives a better looking animal as you have so many more heterozygotes compared to homozygotes in the resultant animal.
Inbreeding depression vs. hybrid vigor
The more inbred the calf the more depression on performance and type you see the more outcrossed the calf the more hybrid vigor you see and lots of times a "prettier" calf....
I think this is why the show breeders use the L1 females and put a "power" type polled bull on them. The calves will look good (some of them)(some will "miss" as you say) but I (personally) believe that the "pretty bull" that you have now bred will be a REAL hit and miss on his breeding. In fact he will probably NEVER outbreed himself. The heterozygotes have been maximized in that calf. The only way to get close is to breed him to a third line that is as unrelated as possible.
LOL - love the link.....thing is I think I am about as big a thorn to the L1 guys as anybody. Most of them probably wish I bred differently.
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Post by jayh on Aug 15, 2014 10:18:20 GMT -6
What do you mean by bred differently Glenn?
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 10:29:44 GMT -6
I mean they wish I WASN'T a L1. I think I embarrass them a little.
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Post by George on Aug 15, 2014 10:48:06 GMT -6
I saw this on another site......(awwwww come on JW) >>The better looking bulls coming from the horned programs usually have some polled in the pedigree. The name brand Line 1 ranches have been using them with good results for a few years.<<< So who are these NAME BRAND line one breeders using polled bulls? 1. Coopers? 2. Holdens? 3. Miles City? 4. Jamison? 5. Coleman? 6. Pedretti? 7. Oleens? 8. Debtor? Fact is I can't think of any Line One breeder who would consider a polled bull...... The day ONE of the breeders on this list uses a polled bull of NON L1 breeding, and keeps the resulting calves in their own herd, you die-hard horned guys had better recognize the significance of that act as one of the last nails in the coffin of the "horned" Hereford breed. Personally, I DO see a day coming where bulls of 7/8ths or 15/16ths Line 1 breeding, but polled, ends up being used by some Line 1 breeders to dehorn their cattle. Glenn and I actually found a bull like that on our trip to Oklahoma/Missouri. The trouble was that the 1/8th of non-Line 1 breeding in that polled bull had ol' TEX PRIME TIME and others lurking back there besides the "polled influence"! Otherwise, he'd be at my place right now! |
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 10:53:13 GMT -6
Not going to happen Watson Wooley.
A L1 breeder may do it but the horned breed isn't going anywhere.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 10:53:45 GMT -6
You polled guys seem to forget there is an easy way to get polled calves already. It's called an ANGUS bull.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 10:58:32 GMT -6
And the Angus is going to be HOMOZYGOUS. Hell what gets me is there are almost zero homozygous polled bulls. After a century you would think the POLLED BREEDERS could have at least bred the horns off FOR GOOD. Just one of their many failures, I guess.....
Of course when you're starting with a crossbred bull to begin with.........
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Post by George on Aug 15, 2014 10:59:37 GMT -6
Not going to happen Watson Wooley. A L1 breeder may do it but the horned breed isn't going anywhere. Watson Wooley! *LOL* That is funny! Just something we'll continue to debate, Glenn! |
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Post by jayh on Aug 15, 2014 11:31:02 GMT -6
I don't think its a problem breeding the horns off I think its a problem with real ranchers want them to look a certain way and they have to keep throwing the horned gene in to get the look. LOL
I have been told by many when they took the horns off they lost their ass. Don't know if the rancher did or the cows LOL.
That and polled breeders seem to Hobbiest instead of the real deal. ( All show, fluff and puff and no real world ) For the most part.
Got to love the Horned - Polled debate.
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Post by strojanherefords on Aug 15, 2014 11:43:16 GMT -6
Holden says that breeding one of their bulls to an unrelated Hereford cow will result in the same hybrid vigor that crossbreeding will accomplish. And I think it is reasonable to assume that L1, Polled and Canadian herefords are sufficiently unrelated to this threshold. I believe that a bull that crosses lines is little different than a baldy bull. And who would use one of them?
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Post by shumakerherefords on Aug 15, 2014 11:45:06 GMT -6
And the Angus is going to be HOMOZYGOUS. Hell what gets me is there are almost zero homozygous polled bulls. After a century you would think the POLLED BREEDERS could have at least bred the horns off FOR GOOD. Just one of their many failures, I guess..... Of course when you're starting with a crossbred bull to begin with......... There are homozygous polled Hereford bulls available. I have bought 2 recently. |
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 11:46:19 GMT -6
Langfords in Oklahoma told me a George they sell about 100 F-1 Black Baldy bulls a year and they think they will sell 300 a year within the next five years. We saw about 5 of their leftover F-1 bulls.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 11:48:02 GMT -6
And the Angus is going to be HOMOZYGOUS. Hell what gets me is there are almost zero homozygous polled bulls. After a century you would think the POLLED BREEDERS could have at least bred the horns off FOR GOOD. Just one of their many failures, I guess..... Of course when you're starting with a crossbred bull to begin with......... There are homozygous polled Hereford bulls available. I have bought 2 recently. I know they are out there, but why not more. I probably have made this thread worse than it needs to be. I don't hate polled breeders. Heck I admire Danny Miller as much as any breeder and George is one of my very best friends in the cattle business. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around why a pointy head is so dang important... |
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 11:52:49 GMT -6
Holden says that breeding one of their bulls to an unrelated Hereford cow will result in the same hybrid vigor that crossbreeding will accomplish. And I think it is reasonable to assume that L1, Polled and Canadian herefords are sufficiently unrelated to this threshold. I believe that a bull that crosses lines is little different than a baldy bull. And who would use one of them? I believe their will be a "jump" when used on unrelated lines, but I do NOT believe it to be equal to an F-1 between breeds, and CERTAINLY not equal to crossing a Bos Taurus on a Bos Inducus JMO |
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Post by George on Aug 15, 2014 11:58:10 GMT -6
And the Angus is going to be HOMOZYGOUS. Hell what gets me is there are almost zero homozygous polled bulls. After a century you would think the POLLED BREEDERS could have at least bred the horns off FOR GOOD. Just one of their many failures, I guess..... Of course when you're starting with a crossbred bull to begin with.........Now, Glenn, if you want to add to the purity debate, there are plenty(most?) of horned Hereford bulls out there with the same problem, and it wouldn't surprise me if the ancestors of Line 1 bulls were included. After all, when you read and understand how the polled Herefords got their start, it is pretty easy to speculate that there were plenty of "mistakes" made in the horned Herefords in that era as well...and probably even more of them! As I've said before, I believe you could take all the Herefords in North America whose pedigrees are 100% correct back to whatever that year of Herd Book that all the national associations agreed on, and they'd all fit in a single 16 foot bumper pull cattle trailer - with room left to load a couple of 4 wheelers. |
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 12:06:52 GMT -6
Probably true. Amazing today the pedigree errors you see. There is a good bull that Jamison's bred that had the wrong sire listed for years.. Turns out he was a 555 son not a 560 son. And Harland. I know breed purity and pedigree errors are not the same thing. I doubt there is a single Hereford with a 100% accurate pedigree back to the original herd book. If there is he would probably be the product of a multi generation closed herd like Lents but even then errors happen on sires and cows do switch calves. Lots of variables.
I really am not too hung up on breed purity. My thought is that at 16 generations it really doesn't matter and probably matters a tiny amount at 8 generations.
All that said, I'm just trying to breed the best cattle I can for MY environment from my chosen gene pool. May or may not succeed. Odds are against me of course....
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Post by George on Aug 15, 2014 12:14:26 GMT -6
Probably true. Amazing today the pedigree errors you see. There is a good bull that Jamison's bred that had the wrong sire listed for years.. Turns out he was a 555 son not a 560 son. And Harland. I know breed purity and pedigree errors are not the same thing. I doubt there is a single Hereford with a 100% accurate pedigree back to the original herd book. If there is he would probably be the product of a multi generation closed herd like Lents but even then errors happen on sires and cows do switch calves. Lots of variables. I really am not too hung up on breed purity. My thought is that at 16 generations it really doesn't matter and probably matters a tiny amount at 8 generations. All that said, I'm just trying to breed the best cattle I can for MY environment from my chosen gene pool. May or may not succeed. Odds are against me of course.... I think that it is far more important to worry about where we are going, than where our predecessors have been...their triumphs and their mistakes. It's what we do with what we have now...and what we have available that is important. Everyone's goals will be a little different. That said, it doesn't hurt to look at and learn from the mistakes and triumphs of the past...and those made by other breeds. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 12:58:49 GMT -6
I saw this on another site......(awwwww come on JW) >>The better looking bulls coming from the horned programs usually have some polled in the pedigree. The name brand Line 1 ranches have been using them with good results for a few years.<<< So who are these NAME BRAND line one breeders using polled bulls? 1. Coopers? 2. Holdens? 3. Miles City? 4. Jamison? 5. Coleman? 6. Pedretti? 7. Oleens? 8. Debtor? Fact is I can't think of any Line One breeder who would consider a polled bull...... The day ONE of the breeders on this list uses a polled bull of NON L1 breeding, and keeps the resulting calves in their own herd, you die-hard horned guys had better recognize the significance of that act as one of the last nails in the coffin of the "horned" Hereford breed. Personally, I DO see a day coming where bulls of 7/8ths or 15/16ths Line 1 breeding, but polled, ends up being used by some Line 1 breeders to dehorn their cattle. Glenn and I actually found a bull like that on our trip to Oklahoma/Missouri. The trouble was that the 1/8th of non-Line 1 breeding in that polled bull had ol' TEX PRIME TIME and others lurking back there besides the "polled influence"! Otherwise, he'd be at my place right now! you should have partnered on him with glenn and renamed him prairie domino section 165. |
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Post by kph on Aug 15, 2014 13:26:39 GMT -6
Probably true. Amazing today the pedigree errors you see. There is a good bull that Jamison's bred that had the wrong sire listed for years.. Turns out he was a 555 son not a 560 son. And Harland. I know breed purity and pedigree errors are not the same thing. I doubt there is a single Hereford with a 100% accurate pedigree back to the original herd book. If there is he would probably be the product of a multi generation closed herd like Lents but even then errors happen on sires and cows do switch calves. Lots of variables. I really am not too hung up on breed purity. My thought is that at 16 generations it really doesn't matter and probably matters a tiny amount at 8 generations. All that said, I'm just trying to breed the best cattle I can for MY environment from my chosen gene pool. May or may not succeed. Odds are against me of course.... I think that it is far more important to worry about where we are going, than where our predecessors have been...their triumphs and their mistakes. It's what we do with what we have now...and what we have available that is important. Everyone's goals will be a little different. That said, it doesn't hurt to look at and learn from the mistakes and triumphs of the past...and those made by other breeds. Actually a positive posting on an otherwise incredibly negative and self-destructive thread. I'll never understand the number of posts on here that insist on kicking OUR OWN BREED in the face over what someone else chooses for bloodlines or breeding goals. We don't all have to be linebred horned range based herds to contribute something to the breed. By the way, a quick search shows 256 currently active DNA tested Homo Polled bulls and another by the way Holdens owns Perfect Timing, a polled About Time son. |
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 13:28:42 GMT -6
>>Holdens owns Perfect Timing, a polled About Time son.<<
Call me when they sell a son in their sale.......
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Post by Glenn on Aug 15, 2014 13:32:53 GMT -6
256 bulls after a 120 years of breeding.....thanks for proving my point.....
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