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Post by phillse on May 28, 2020 11:15:20 GMT -6
I don't have horned cattle because of nostalgia or personal preference. I have horned cattle because I believe that more is lost than horns when the horn gene is eliminated. For me, I run in some brushy country and the horned cows will do a better job clearing the brush and opening up the canopy than polled cows. I take offense to the idea that we need to kowtow to the animal rights activist. There is nothing we can do to fully satisfy them because their beliefs are incoherent and motivated by a lust for power and money. In California, there isn't a commercial hog industry any more because farmers aren't allowed to prevent sows from crushing their piglets. I have dehorned, branded, and castrated hundreds of cattle at a variety of age; I have not seen any sign of psychological trauma from those practices. That is still personal preference. The personal preference is backed by observation and probably documented with improved performance. Personal preference does not have to be due to nostalgia nor does it have to be an arbitrary decision. For illustration, if you ask a group of people to choose Ford or Chevy the answers will be different based on people. My neighbor for his personal vehicle has a Chevy Truck for personal use because of in his words "comfort". However the Hardware store that he was part owner in always uses Ford for delivery trucks for the last 40 years. His answer is that the one time they used Chevy Trucks for delivery with employee drivers they did not hold up. He says in their experience the Ford Trucks held up better as delivery trucks with employee drivers. So the store by personal preference uses Ford, that preference is based on experience and performance. |
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Post by phillse on May 28, 2020 12:38:36 GMT -6
I don't have horned cattle because of nostalgia or personal preference. I have horned cattle because I believe that more is lost than horns when the horn gene is eliminated. For me, I run in some brushy country and the horned cows will do a better job clearing the brush and opening up the canopy than polled cows. I take offense to the idea that we need to kowtow to the animal rights activist. There is nothing we can do to fully satisfy them because their beliefs are incoherent and motivated by a lust for power and money. In California, there isn't a commercial hog industry any more because farmers aren't allowed to prevent sows from crushing their piglets. I have dehorned, branded, and castrated hundreds of cattle at a variety of age; I have not seen any sign of psychological trauma from those practices. Agree 110%. Some people think that if we just use Polled animals the "BQA Folks" and "Best Practices Folks" and "Animal Rights Folks" will be placated and we will have done our "part" as "team players". So damn NAIVE. Those people will NEVER ever be satisfied. Issues like branding and dehorning, are just incremental steps. They use them first because they can expect so many of "us" to "go along" and be "enlightened". Divide and conquer. Appeasement has NEVER worked and will never work. I have no issues with folks who honestly like and use polled animals. I have nothing but disdain for people with thought processes like Philse's that we should just give in to the PC crowd because it's "inevitable".... This post illustrates the difficulty of written communication and correspondence. A large part of our communication is non-verbal. My post is rather lengthy in an effort for effective communication. Let's look at the facts. As farmers/rancher we make up roughly 1.3% of the U.S. population. We are a very small minority and very small voting body. 15 -20 years ago in rural Alabama almost 90% of students in my High School had a parent or Grandparent involved in the Food side of Agriculture (livestock or crops). If you will a personal connection to how and where their food came from. Today that number is closer to 30%. People are loosing that connection of where their food comes from and what it takes to produce that food. We live in a Democratic Republic and I understand that we have "majority rule without the infringing on the rights of the minority". “We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.” ― Thomas Jefferson If we are to continue agriculture and especially animal agriculture. We must 1st do a better job of educating and explaining the importance of agriculture and what goes into producing the food they purchase. The General population does not have any connection to their food and are constantly bombarded by propaganda from the likes of HSUS, PETA, and even some "Ag groups" which are wolves in sheeps clothing. I believe in the constitution and feel you should be able to raise whatever kind of cattle you prefer and as far as I know We still have that right. My choice of words was along the lines of the smart economics. I get it, as farmers we are an independent bunch of people with a can do pioneer attitude. That is a good thing. Secondly, as Glenn alluded to we need to have a united effort of All aspects of Agriculture not just livestock. (The challenge how can all of agriculture unite when the (Polled Hereford and Horned Hereford struggle to work together), (Show Shorthorns, Performance Shorthorns, Native Shorthorns breeders struggle), (Purebred Simmental and Fullblood Simmental), (the struggle between traditional and the fashionable "organic, natural, holistic) (insert any breed vs any other breed), not to mention that pork, and poultry are often seen as competition for beef. This is not an inclusive list but hopefully illustrates the point. Thirdly, we have to have some form of leverage. In today's global economy food can be sourced from anywhere. U.S. agriculture is not about feeding the U.S. population. However, U.S. Agriculture is of utmost importance for the preservation on our national freedom. My Ag. teacher always stressed and I try to stress to my students that "he who controls your food controls you" because as the old saying "right or wrong is all the same when baby needs new shoes". People in general (including myself) are good about complaining and reacting but not so good about being proactive. As an Ag. teacher, I am constantly trying to educate students about the truths of production agriculture. And I can tell you that job has gotten harder over the last 16 years. I prefer the brood cows hornless (polled or dehorned does not really matter) at our place. Why? Cattle are handled and worked by myself 40, dad 70 (with hip replacement), my sister and my 9 year old niece. My kids started helping some this year and are all under the age of 7. Most of the time it is me and my dad. so it is a safety thing and also a convenience thing (one less thing to do when working/processing). Glenn, let me say thanks for allowing me be be a member of this forum. I have certainly learned a lot about Hereford Cattle, cattle in general and breeding methods applicable to any species of livestock which was my purpose for joining. Glenn I am sorry that you feel Disdain for me. I feel we probably see things pretty much eye to eye on most things. I just might not always be the best at communicating my thoughts. I think you will appreciate the following quotes as they relate to the future of U.S. Agriculture and the future of our great nation. “I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” ― Thomas Jefferson |
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Post by saltamontes5 on May 28, 2020 13:04:20 GMT -6
See this like many other ideas I attempt to draw attention and awareness to, that just keep coming back. I agree with Glen. When I evaluate something like this I honestly have to ask why. Why is this needed why does it even needed to be considered? Since we already have a polled Hereford breed, which by the way the original title of the book written on the topic included "Birth of a Breed". In my opinion Polled Herefords are and will always be their own breed. Horned Hereford are only horned Herefords if they are purely that. Polled can have whatever genetics in it and that is just fine, because they are their own breed this is my stance in spite of joining the two associations. If you go and stripped the Horned Gene out then in my opinion what you have created is a new breed entirely and it needs to be treated as such. As I have said before you don't have to spend millions or billions of dollars striping the horned gene out of every breed just to achieve a perceived industry requirement. Just go buy some Angus cattle or buy a polled bull of some breed or another and be done with it. They already exist and they are much cheaper than your average lab experiment. This is just a gimmick to get you to buy something new. To spend more money on something that is not needed or required to produce steak or hamburger certainly not better steak or hamburger.
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Post by timbernt on May 28, 2020 18:49:54 GMT -6
I disagree totally.
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Post by strojanherefords on May 28, 2020 19:02:43 GMT -6
I don't have horned cattle because of nostalgia or personal preference. I have horned cattle because I believe that more is lost than horns when the horn gene is eliminated. For me, I run in some brushy country and the horned cows will do a better job clearing the brush and opening up the canopy than polled cows. I take offense to the idea that we need to kowtow to the animal rights activist. There is nothing we can do to fully satisfy them because their beliefs are incoherent and motivated by a lust for power and money. In California, there isn't a commercial hog industry any more because farmers aren't allowed to prevent sows from crushing their piglets. I have dehorned, branded, and castrated hundreds of cattle at a variety of age; I have not seen any sign of psychological trauma from those practices. That is still personal preference. The personal preference is backed by observation and probably documented with improved performance. Personal preference does not have to be due to nostalgia nor does it have to be an arbitrary decision. For illustration, if you ask a group of people to choose Ford or Chevy the answers will be different based on people. My neighbor for his personal vehicle has a Chevy Truck for personal use because of in his words "comfort". However the Hardware store that he was part owner in always uses Ford for delivery trucks for the last 40 years. His answer is that the one time they used Chevy Trucks for delivery with employee drivers they did not hold up. He says in their experience the Ford Trucks held up better as delivery trucks with employee drivers. So the store by personal preference uses Ford, that preference is based on experience and performance. At a basic level, we need to have an honest discussion and not play word games. The definition you gave of term "personal preference" doesn't match the way you used the term in the post I was referring to. |
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Post by Glenn on May 28, 2020 20:14:55 GMT -6
Phillse, I should apologize. Like you said things in ‘text’ (or message board) format often come off different than intent. I said ‘thought process’. I don’t have disdain for you as a person. I don’t know you well enough for that and in fact you seem likable enough. I just feel very strongly that any form of appeasement even in the face of overwhelming odds is a total losing strategy. And I do have disdain for any form of it or advocation for it.
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Post by phillse on May 28, 2020 20:40:03 GMT -6
strojanherefords, looking back at the post I wrote it does look like it meant different from definition in the following post. I apologize to you and to anyone that I might have offended. It was never my intention to play word games. I think that right now we are about as close to an honest open dialog as can be had in an Internet forum/typed communication.
I
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Post by strojanherefords on May 28, 2020 22:58:57 GMT -6
In order for lab created polled cattle to be viable, they will need to be patented and that will be bad for the independent farmer. That will be the end of ranchers owning cattle.
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Post by cflory on May 30, 2020 5:49:12 GMT -6
Bingo. Think Monsanto with the roundup traits. You will pay a fee to use the new “trait”. Some one in the protein industry is working on this
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Post by saltamontes5 on May 31, 2020 9:52:27 GMT -6
In order for lab created polled cattle to be viable, they will need to be patented and that will be bad for the independent farmer. That will be the end of ranchers owning cattle. For this and so many reasons such "progress" is really not needed. When we have to resort to such extreme measures to achieve a perceived benefit or need we have lost touch with reality entirely. We had good corn yields that supported many farmers when we just hybridized, before we started all the gene splicing and roundup ready nonsense. I remember in the early 80's my grandfather raising good corn, with clean fields and he did not resort to any of that. The only reason we are resorting to this now, is because no one actually wants to do the work or pay anyone to do the work necessary. So you are forced to try and control everything using means that minimize how often you have to touch it. If we have to do that with cattle then what breed of cattle they are does no matter really, it will be entirely and engineered situation and you will only want something that has the precise genes required to supply a perceived need the perception being generated and propagated entirely by an industry designed to line the pockets of a few not they many. (you see this now with the black hide insanity) I will say it again to achieve what they are asking for (with respect to the polled gene or the lack of horns either way) a natural method that is proven effective for hundreds of years now already exists, and except for the price of purchasing seed stock is already available to you or frankly just one bull which you can even pick up and stock yard prices if you go by the mentality of many of the people I come in contact with. The risk of degrading a breed that exists in its natural form is much to great to mess with something as dangerous as this particularly if you actually believe in the breed. Perhaps if more people would choose to buck the system and stand on their own and not chase or run with the crowd our breed would still be the breed supreme. There was a point in time when the Hereford producers had enough power and control of the industry at large that they could have done something about this. The last thing we are holding on to is the breed identity "Horned Herefords" which frankly only had to be placed on us once he polled thing came into being. before that we were the Herefords. |
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Post by timbernt on May 31, 2020 15:53:32 GMT -6
If the opportunity offers itself, both the science and economics, I will pursue gene editing. Especially this one. On this forum I have been quite candid about my view of the overconfidence many have in the current state of genomics. In the case of a single gene change, I will pursue the real science. The threads about HOP reminds me that there is no longer a "Hereford" breed, but rather a lot of people pursuing their own interpretation and vision of what a Hereford is. I feel free to pursue my own vision.
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Post by soherf on Aug 13, 2020 7:12:53 GMT -6
The major problem with utilizing this CRISPR gene edit is that they can't control it. It will insert in the wrong location or insert 40 times in a single sequence. That makes it not a viable, reproducible product and every failure costs the investor money.
Another MASSIVE problem is that the feds have labelled them as GMO and not acceptable to enter the food chain. Since it's not likely that an animal of this value would enter the food chain the real question lies in the offspring. Since they would inherit the "modification" would the feds deem them also GMO or would they consider them natural offspring. If the progeny are labelled as GMO they also can't enter the food chain. How many generations will it take before they are deemed safe for human consumption? How many generations will it take before they slip into the food chain accidentally or on purpose? Let's be honest bulls are bulls and they love their job.
Would any of you want the government crawling through your herds and forcing you to test and verify the parentage on every calf prior to sale? I mean I parentage verify all my registered calves and the few cross breds I make a year it's easy record keeping but it won't be for everyone. The regulations regarding these CRISPR cattle could be the biggest unknown and would give most ranchers a reason to sit back and let others go first, likely universities or corporate owned herds.
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Post by timbernt on Dec 21, 2020 19:00:51 GMT -6
Secretary of agriculture Sonny Perdue announced today an effort to move regulatory approval of gene modification from FDA to USDA. 60 day comment period starts immediately.
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Dec 26, 2020 13:04:24 GMT -6
Secretary of agriculture Sonny Perdue announced today an effort to move regulatory approval of gene modification from FDA to USDA. 60 day comment period starts immediately. Didn't Trump put him in there, he'll be gone before the 60 days are up, feds don't like losing any powers. |
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Dec 31, 2020 21:47:52 GMT -6
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Post by lcc on Jan 1, 2021 6:54:20 GMT -6
In California, there isn't a commercial hog industry any more because farmers aren't allowed to prevent sows from crushing their piglets. I'll admit that I'm far removed from anything to do with hogs, but I was told its a maternal trait for a sow to stand back up when she starts to hear pigs squeal when she lays down. I guess when you breed maternal traits out of them, no matter what species, you're going to have problems. I also feel for the folks who have had hog confinements move right next to their property. I was helping a friend at his house the other day and when the south breeze picked up, all you could smell was hog $hit. That's not fun either. I can smell cow $hit all day long, but hog $hit is something else. Back on topic, and as I've said, I think we really need to be careful in this uncharted territory. The last thing we need is a bunch of hippies targeting their anti-GMO agenda at America's cowherd. Not saying I'm totally against technology, but let's be smart here. Also, I don't have much faith in USDA, or FSIS. Look where most FSIS resources go and look at the revolving door of that agency. That will tell you who they favor. |
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Post by timbernt on Jan 1, 2021 9:29:52 GMT -6
No, you don't know anything about hogs. Even farrowing on pastures sows lay on pigs. They usually stand back up when they hear the piglet squeal, but it is too late. I have spent many hours in confinement units as well as dirt hog operations. Each has its problems, but eliminating farrowing crates is wrong. The idea that Amish hog operations can be financially sound is wrong as well in todays economy. The pork will be better, but much less efficient. The cost of pork to the consumer would be much higher. There is an operation in china building a unit with 84,000 sows at one location. I imagine their goal is 25 fat hogs per show. Almost 2 million hogs per year. Are we going to give that industry to china as well because someone (living in the country) does not like the smell of manure? If your friend has a serious problem the courts are available for remediation.
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Post by lcc on Jan 1, 2021 12:14:52 GMT -6
No, you don't know anything about hogs. Even farrowing on pastures sows lay on pigs. They usually stand back up when they hear the piglet squeal, but it is too late. I have spent many hours in confinement units as well as dirt hog operations. Each has its problems, but eliminating farrowing crates is wrong. The idea that Amish hog operations can be financially sound is wrong as well in todays economy. The pork will be better, but much less efficient. The cost of pork to the consumer would be much higher. There is an operation in china building a unit with 84,000 sows at one location. I imagine their goal is 25 fat hogs per show. Almost 2 million hogs per year. Are we going to give that industry to china as well because someone (living in the country) does not like the smell of manure? If your friend has a serious problem the courts are available for remediation. Hmmm, if every sow that ever lived laid on all her piglets, the entire species would be... well, extinct in the first generation. Paint me skeptical, but then maybe you milk out every cow you calve. Also, maybe let's not dictate our country based on China's need. I guess you didn't see how well that worked out a few years back? And yes, tell me how great the courts are and how getting lawyers involved solves everything perfectly and quickly. |
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Post by timbernt on Jan 1, 2021 13:37:19 GMT -6
Back when we first got married I thought my wife needed third job, so I bought some Berkshire sows and a Duroc boar for her birthday. I was like you, I was going to do it like when we had hogs growing up and just put them in a pen to farrow. Berks aren't known for large litters, but when they lay on half of the piglets it really cuts down on the number weaned. I don't like modern poultry production or modern hog production. A large part of our population doesn't like modern beef production. I don't know if your operation is large enough to be self sustaining or not, but what my off farm brothers and sisters remember about farming growing up is a long ways from being economically viable today. We live in an area that is rapidly urbanizing and I have zero tolerance for those that move next to me and try to dictate my production practices.
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Post by cflory on Jan 1, 2021 20:12:17 GMT -6
I know it's not the original topic you guys were talking about but reminded me of a conversation at Xmas, someone was complaining about oil wells in their back yard, I said yep you love filling up with cheap gas though right? No one likes to smell the hog but we all love bacon!
America loves cheap food but they really don't want to know how it gets to them.
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Jan 12, 2021 13:34:36 GMT -6
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