oops!

[rockmillsherefords]

CHURCHILL ADVANCE 9227G {DLF,HYF,IEF,MSUDF} (P44053257)

[timbernt]

Maybe Gammon was right!

[rockmillsherefords]

Yeah wouldn't that be a surprise. I'm surprised Dale missed it, he's listed as polled in the sale catalog came in the mail today. Calf swap I assume.

[kph]

Sorry, parentage verified, DNA tested, Heterozygous Polled tested. Shoots holes in most of the b.s. theories floating on here lately.

[strojanherefords]

At this point, I am amazed by the cockiness shown.

[1780]

Have I missed something Tim ??

[timbernt]

Straight horned pedigree, registered as polled.

[George]

My first thought is the H/P designation of the dam correct? That is a DNA test I would want to see run twice!

link

[kph]

All but one animal in the 4 generation pedigree DNA tested, straight horned. Oh you nonbelievers!

[George]

Jan 14, 2020 9:23:07 GMT -6 kph said:

All but one animal in the 4 generation pedigree DNA tested, straight horned. Oh you nonbelievers!

I have seen too many reports of illogical results from the lab that the AHA uses that were corrected upon retesting to blindly accept illogical results without knowing they have been rechecked.

If those results are indeed correct, then this bull is special, IMO. By pedigree, he doesn't have any of the L1 blood of those L1 bulls that I am wary of and there is nothing in the non L1 part of his pedigree that I hate. I would be interested in using him.

Edited to add: On one of our cattle trips, Glenn and I found a polled bull in a group of yearling bulls of a horned (primary L1)breeder - one of the best bulls in the group. The breeder presented that bull to us as "one of those mutations". That got me interested really fast! But when we got to check the pedigree of the bull, there was not only polled blood in the bottom quarter of his pedigree but some Titan 23D as well.

[Glenn]

Just my opinion but I believe this animal COULD be a "special" animal. BUT I think before we confer that status the SCIENCE needs to be locked down as accurate as possible. I believe every living animal in the pedigree should be re-tested for BOTH parentage and for H/P status. There are such things in DNA tests as false positives AND false negatives. In fact early in the MSUD deal an animal tested positive from two FREE parents. A subsequent RE-TEST proved the animal FREE.

My FIRM opinion is that something of this magnitude deserves a double and triple check of all available DNA evidence. I believe it is a case that deserves some AHA intervention in paying for the re-tests as well as making sure all animals available are re-tested (with new samples if POSSIBLE), including those not owned by Churchill. This could be a watershed event for the breed and it's no time for any breeder or owner of any animal in that pedigree to be playing "we aren't gonna play along".

[strojanherefords]

What I don't understand is why there isn't a check during the registration process to flag calves that don't match up with their parents. I think we will find that DNA tested doesn't mean parentage tested.

[kph]

Jan 14, 2020 9:42:05 GMT -6 George said:

Jan 14, 2020 9:23:07 GMT -6 kph said:

All but one animal in the 4 generation pedigree DNA tested, straight horned. Oh you nonbelievers!

I have seen too many reports of illogical results from the lab that the AHA uses that were corrected upon retesting to blindly accept illogical results without knowing they have been rechecked.

If those results are indeed correct, then this bull is special, IMO. By pedigree, he doesn't have any of the L1 blood of those L1 bulls that I am wary of and there is nothing in the non L1 part of his pedigree that I hate. I would be interested in using him.

Edited to add: On one of our cattle trips, Glenn and I found a polled bull in a group of yearling bulls of a horned (primary L1)breeder - one of the best bulls in the group. The breeder presented that bull to us as "one of those mutations". That got me interested really fast! But when we got to check the pedigree of the bull, there was not only polled blood in the bottom quarter of his pedigree but some Titan 23D as well.

Polled back in the pedigree doesn't matter. If the parents were actually horned (pp) they can't pass on a big P, basic genetics. You had another one there! A neighbor had one a year or two ago out of a small herd. I'll have to check what became of that calf and if it was ever verified. I think it happens more than we know, most people just don't think of it as earth-shattering because it's always happened.

[saltamontes5]

Well assuming this is all on the up and up and there was some sort of lab error or a switch of the AI straw or two.  This calf does not have a purely horned pedigree.  The dam if you trace her back does go back and has some King Ten back in there which has a splash of polled.  Once again I am not inclined to believe spontaneous mutation at all.  You can argue that this is to far back there to matter but old family traits have a habit of resurfacing many generations latter I have found.  Even when you try to breed it out sometimes it can come back.  That said it will be interesting if Holden or Cooper starting using this bull or one like him to take the horns off their cattle like everyone else.  

[George]

Jan 14, 2020 12:42:48 GMT -6 kph said:

Jan 14, 2020 9:42:05 GMT -6 George said:

I have seen too many reports of illogical results from the lab that the AHA uses that were corrected upon retesting to blindly accept illogical results without knowing they have been rechecked.

If those results are indeed correct, then this bull is special, IMO. By pedigree, he doesn't have any of the L1 blood of those L1 bulls that I am wary of and there is nothing in the non L1 part of his pedigree that I hate. I would be interested in using him.

Edited to add: On one of our cattle trips, Glenn and I found a polled bull in a group of yearling bulls of a horned (primary L1)breeder - one of the best bulls in the group. The breeder presented that bull to us as "one of those mutations". That got me interested really fast! But when we got to check the pedigree of the bull, there was not only polled blood in the bottom quarter of his pedigree but some Titan 23D as well.

Polled back in the pedigree doesn't matter. If the parents were actually horned (pp) they can't pass on a big P, basic genetics. You had another one there! A neighbor had one a year or two ago out of a small herd. I'll have to check what became of that calf and if it was ever verified. I think it happens more than we know, most people just don't think of it as earth-shattering because it's always happened.

No, it WASN'T another one. His dam and granddam were actually polled. Part of the problem is that some of these guys don't remember which ones actually got the dehorning paste or actually needed it at all...especially when they aren't the ones doing the dehorning.

Lots of cattle in the registry that do not have the correct polled/horned designation. And, unfortunately, there are too many breeders who don't care enough to make sure it's accurate.

We will have to disagree as to the frequency of its occurrence. Personally, I believe it happens only slightly more often than virgin births in humans.

[timbernt]

Kph, faith has nothing to do with it. The nearest ancestor with polled genetics is Explosion. There is 0.0009765625 chance the polled gene from Explosion would show up in 9227G. That is simple Mendelian genetics. Less than 1/10 of 1% chance of your theory being correct. Greater than a 99.99% chance you are wrong as well as the pedigree.

[1780]

Given that we have got into the realm of virgin births, I thought I would do a google search!!!!

"There are none so blind as those who will not see?"

: : : Matthew 13:13
: : : 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables: because they seeing
: : : see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand

: : : Jeremiah 5:21
: : : Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

: : : Isaiah 6:9-10
: : : And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see indeed, but perceive not.
: : : Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

: : "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings" by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996). Mr. Titelman agrees that this saying has its roots in the Bible, specifically Jer. 5:21 (King James version): "Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not."

: : "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. The proverb has been traced back in English to 1546 (John Heywood), and resembles the Biblical verse quoted (above). In 1738, it was used by Jonathan Swift in his 'Polite Conversation,' and is first attested in the United States in the 1713 'Works of Thomas Chalkley'..."

[larso]

As Winston Churchill said ‘ The Truth is mostly body guarded by lies. ‘

[rockmillsherefords]

Yeah but....The truth is out there....Mulder X-Files

[George]

Hmmm....now the AHA website is showing "animal not found" under this bull's name or registration number.

Edited to add: I wonder if they removed it to correct information

...or perhaps they are changing his name to Churchill Messiah.

[1780]

Didn't somebody say: "Oh you nonbelievers!" - "Shoots holes in most of the B.S. theories floating on here lately".

Thanks for the insight George. Seems to me that the real BS theories of late are:

1. You must believe a sale catalog
2. Beyond anything else you believe all future pedigrees from this breeder
3. Gammon never told lies
4. You always believe that when somebody says "parentage verified, DNA tested, Heterozygous Polled tested" it is the truth.
5. Everything on Hereford Talk is BS
6. AHA NEVER READS HEREFORD TALK

[George]

Jan 18, 2020 7:02:39 GMT -6 1780 said:

Didn't somebody say: "Oh you nonbelievers!" - "Shoots holes in most of the B.S. theories floating on here lately".

Thanks for the insight George. Seems to me that the real BS theories of late are:

1. You must believe a sale catalog
2. Beyond anything else you believe all future pedigrees from this breeder
3. Gammon never told lies
4. You always believe that when somebody says "parentage verified, DNA tested, Heterozygous Polled tested" it is the truth.
5. Everything on Hereford Talk is BS
6. AHA NEVER READS HEREFORD TALK

I'm not going to gloat, Peter. I am betting on this bull reappearing in the registry - once they figure out who his parents are with certainty.

I am also betting on a change in his pedigree....which will be disappointing to me. He is the first polled bull that has come along in over 5 years that I would have any interest in using...IF his pedigree could stand up with certainty.

[rockmillsherefords]

So they (AHA) didn't parent verify before posting the results, wonder how many more slipped through that no one flagged.

[Glenn]

Jan 18, 2020 8:51:31 GMT -6 rockmillsherefords said:

So they (AHA) didn't parent verify before posting the results, wonder how many more slipped through that no one flagged.


My thought is they did check but it was a ‘false positive’. Somewhere, someone had the sense to re-check and I give them kudos. Hopefully it was Churchill.

BUT

I imagine a PLETHORA of false positive and negative tests just ‘go through’. Only like the MSUD animal last year when someone says ‘this doesn’t look right and a re-test is ordered do they get corrected.

[rockmillsherefords]

Jan 18, 2020 9:05:08 GMT -6 Glenn said:

Jan 18, 2020 8:51:31 GMT -6 rockmillsherefords said:

So they (AHA) didn't parent verify before posting the results, wonder how many more slipped through that no one flagged.


My thought is they did check but it was a ‘false positive’. Somewhere, someone had the sense to re-check and I give them kudos. Hopefully it was Churchill.

BUT

I imagine a PLETHORA of false positive and negative tests just ‘go through’. Only like the MSUD animal last year when someone says ‘this doesn’t look right and a re-test is ordered do they get corrected.

The Genetic abnormalities test maybe a simple positive/negative type test, parent verification should be be comparing DNA profiles to see if they match, a little different.