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Post by elkwc on Oct 2, 2015 20:50:41 GMT -6
Jay it is up to each individual on what they use and their opinion about purity. I personally wouldn't use a Hereford bull with coon eyes like that no matter how good he was. A freckled face is one thing. I only saw coon eyes on some polled cattle until the late 70's and then they started showing up on some horned cattle. Usually of cattle of nothern origin. You can get eye pigment without the huge coon eyes. I see no benefit to them.
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Oct 3, 2015 10:19:41 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 10:19:41 GMT -6
The problem with Hereford purity probably isn't the issue up north that it is here. Simmental in the woodpile directly affects our price. An F1 Braford heifer that is brindle or marked like a Hereford has a market price. The price for an F1 Braford marked like a Simmental is automatically about $500 less. That is a HUGE amount to subtract from the bottom line right off the bat.
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Post by whiteface on Oct 3, 2015 10:32:55 GMT -6
How consistent do these unfavorable marked critters pass on their markings/color to their offspring? I'm just curious. I've put rednecked bulls with goggle eyes on regular looking herefords with standard markings and I get more white than I expected. Totally opposite than I thought.
Then I have a good cow with white down her back to the middle of her ribs and complete white front legs BUT has 100% eye pigment rings. She never throws alot of white. Haven't used any Durango on her so that might do her in but with what I call standard, common marked Hereford bulls I never get too much white.
I don't throw away good cows because of markings. Selling bulls however, I'm sure there is a thing such as too much white. Pigmented eyes are so/so here. Some care. Some dont.
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Post by strojanherefords on Oct 4, 2015 16:30:16 GMT -6
I just looked at the traditional Hereford website and there were examples of cattle with extra white and some eye pigment. Tartancowgirl could provide more insight but I believe that a large portion of the different markings were in the breed like the red trait in the angus.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Oct 5, 2015 8:32:09 GMT -6
We all know that whitin the breed there is a wide range of genetic variation in markings. Breeders have their personal choice and so you see animals with big eye patches, red necks, red legs, too much white, feathers, difference in coat colours, etc. On top of that you see animals with horns, polled, scurred, long heads, short heads, speckles, no speckles, etc. If I were the Marketing Manager of the Hereford breed world wide, I would like to have a more uniform product to promote and sell. Get a consensus to reduce markings and other traits phenotipical variation and therefore strengthen the Breed identity, which eventually will result in growth and more sales. Angus breed has a big advantage here: at least there are all black.
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Post by elkwc on Oct 5, 2015 10:43:31 GMT -6
We all know that whitin the breed there is a wide range of genetic variation in markings. Breeders have their personal choice and so you see animals with big eye patches, red necks, red legs, too much white, feathers, difference in coat colours, etc. On top of that you see animals with horns, polled, scurred, long heads, short heads, speckles, no speckles, etc. If I were the Marketing Manager of the Hereford breed world wide, I would like to have a more uniform product to promote and sell. Get a consensus to reduce markings and other traits phenotipical variation and therefore strengthen the Breed identity, which eventually will result in growth and more sales. Angus breed has a big advantage here: at least there are all black. I saw the markings on QH's pushed for years and finally there were a few lawsuits. I was looking at the herd bull issue and there are two bulls on opposite pages that have 1/3 to 1/2 of their face covered with a large red spot. It doesn't appear they are related. So when then say a white face do they really mean a partial white face? A small spot or a blotch on the side of the face I can see more than a large patch that covers up to half of the face.
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Post by tartancowgirl on Oct 5, 2015 16:40:34 GMT -6
I just looked at the traditional Hereford website and there were examples of cattle with extra white and some eye pigment. Tartancowgirl could provide more insight but I believe that a large portion of the different markings were in the breed like the red trait in the angus. Yes there is a very wide variation of white markings in the Traditional herd, but the question of eye pigment is most interesting because I am coming to the conclusion that this is strongly inherited. Our bull is mostly Llandinabo and has pigmented eye rims, and so far all his calves have too, even if the dams do not. However I have never seen these big eye patches / coon eyes in the Traditional cattle. We have quite a few animals sired by 1960s / 70s bulls and they tend to have a lot of white, especially on the neck and legs. Was there not a widely held belief at one time that a lot of white meant cows were better milkers? Old wives' tale I'm sure but might explain why there were cattle with a lot of white markings. I'd like to post more pictures but I cant't because it keeps giving me error messages, saying this forum has exceeded it's attachment limit??? Perhaps someone could explain what I'm doing wrong? Photo I tried was only 236 kB, so not very big. It was of one of our calves with what we consider "perfect" markings.
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Post by Glenn on Oct 5, 2015 16:51:10 GMT -6
LOL Notice you changed it to say 137Y..... Original post didn't have that, I don't think.....
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Post by mhemry on Oct 5, 2015 17:16:46 GMT -6
Moving away from the eye pigment discussion but still on markings, how do you guys and gals feel about white down the back? Have you ever had a situation where the dam and sire threw a calf with said markings but neither of them had white on their back? Do any of you have animals in your herd with white down the back? ( be it a spot or even a thin line)
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Oct 5, 2015 21:17:18 GMT -6
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Post by picketwire on Oct 5, 2015 21:17:18 GMT -6
Depends on how much of a white line and maybe more so the overall quality of the animal. Have kept a couple "lineback" cows in years past, some worked out and some didnt. Never had them pass it on. Havent had a lineback bull here that i remember. Have had a few bullcalves born with the odd black spot on the side, though.
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Post by jayh on Oct 6, 2015 11:47:54 GMT -6
LOL Notice you changed it to say 137Y..... Original post didn't have that, I don't think..... I edited to add photos but it did say 137Y from beginning.
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Post by jayh on Oct 6, 2015 11:49:19 GMT -6
Depends on how much of a white line and maybe more so the overall quality of the animal. Have kept a couple "lineback" cows in years past, some worked out and some didnt. Never had them pass it on. Havent had a lineback bull here that i remember. Have had a few bullcalves born with the odd black spot on the side, though. where does black spot come from? Havent seen one of those. Have a picture?
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Post by Glenn on Oct 6, 2015 11:50:28 GMT -6
Oh...my bad....I thought it was blank.....I guess I was just visualizing what 'ol Ace'd be thinking when somebody chimed in "Simmental"......LOL
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Oct 6, 2015 16:19:57 GMT -6
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Post by picketwire on Oct 6, 2015 16:19:57 GMT -6
Depends on how much of a white line and maybe more so the overall quality of the animal. Have kept a couple "lineback" cows in years past, some worked out and some didnt. Never had them pass it on. Havent had a lineback bull here that i remember. Have had a few bullcalves born with the odd black spot on the side, though. where does black spot come from? Havent seen one of those. Have a picture? Id have to go way back digging thru pictures pre-digital. Last one i remember would have been early 90's. Turned into one of my brothers last 4H steers. Dont know where it came from.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:25:22 GMT -6
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Post by btlrupert on Oct 6, 2015 17:25:22 GMT -6
In the 70's I can remember seeing very dark to black hair on tails .. We owned a bull this way and he was linebred . Not on the bloodlines you would think..
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Post by cflory on Oct 6, 2015 17:46:09 GMT -6
Black or dark hair on the tail is said to be a to be a sign of "tremendous libido". I saw that in How to Select Them by Dr. Jan Bonsma. We have had bulls over the years like that, what about black spots on the nose? I currently have one with spots and all three of her calves have them also.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:21:54 GMT -6
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Post by btlrupert on Oct 6, 2015 18:21:54 GMT -6
Interesting . Bull was a darn good breeder. Never have been able to get my hands on a copy of Bonsma's book to read.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Oct 6, 2015 18:30:19 GMT -6
Black hair is considered here a breed impurity. It's rejected by the local Association in the Puro Registrado category, which is not registered and every head is approved or rejected by an inspector. An old Hereford impurity as I understand. Personally, I reject anything with it.
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Oct 7, 2015 10:44:45 GMT -6
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Post by hoekland on Oct 7, 2015 10:44:45 GMT -6
Black spots or birthmarks as they are called has slways been part of the breed. It is unwanted and discriminated against, but it is not an automatic disqualification. Depending on the degree, off course.
Just completed a brahman judging course. They are far more strict about breed character and pigment than any hereford breeders society have ever been
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Oct 7, 2015 12:37:38 GMT -6
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Oct 7, 2015 12:37:38 GMT -6
Black spots or birthmarks as they are called has slways been part of the breed. It is unwanted and discriminated against, but it is not an automatic disqualification. Depending on the degree, off course Good acclaration.
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Post by tartancowgirl on Oct 7, 2015 12:46:22 GMT -6
Black hair is considered here a breed impurity. It's rejected by the local Association in the Puro Registrado category, which is not registered and every head is approved or rejected by an inspector. An old Hereford impurity as I understand. Personally, I reject anything with it. Wow, you have inspections? Is this calves before you can register them? I would like to know more about that. Apparently the Hereford Cattle Society in UK used to have local "fields men" who would come round and look at your cattle and advise people - not now though.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Oct 7, 2015 13:20:09 GMT -6
The local Hereford and Angus Associations have the same system here. There is the pedigree cattle registered in the Herd Book, which is closed. Then there is a category called Puro Registrado in the Hereford's and Puro Controlado in the Angus in which every female has to be approved by an inspector. Bulls utilized in the Herefords are either pedigree bulls or S/ bulls which are Puro Registrado inspected and approved by the Association. I understand that the Angus follow a very similar protocol. Cattle with black hair in this category are rejected. Also if the white goes beyond the shoulder, not as strict in tis case. There is a much bigger number of Puro Registrado cattle and the quality of it is better than the pedigree cattle on the average. I would guess that 95% + of the sale bulls are Puro Registrado.
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Post by bltherf on Oct 7, 2015 19:34:15 GMT -6
I was told that Herefords were started from Welsh black , Red poll and Irish white cattle long ago. Not sure of the validity of this but if it's true the black hairs in present day Herefords should be no surprise. Have seen lots of black tails and neck hairs over the years and it doesn't bother me much. Black spots and patches have been common for years. Dark coarse hair over the neck and upper shoulders is a sign of masculinity
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 5:25:48 GMT -6
Just completed a brahman judging course. They are far more strict about breed character and pigment than any hereford breeders society have ever been I highly recommend the Joe Ackerman book, American Brahman Let me know if you need help getting a copy. It is a good read for Hereford breeders, too. The Brahman phenotype has remained essentially the same for a century. Hereford andBrahman are the two maternal breeds that are stuck with each other and both of us got stuck with Angus. LOL
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Oct 8, 2015 15:05:57 GMT -6
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Post by hoekland on Oct 8, 2015 15:05:57 GMT -6
Thanks JW would love to get a copy. I'll see if I can find one.
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