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Post by picketwire on Feb 26, 2015 1:09:33 GMT -6
So far this year we are lighter than usual but not really surprised. We had good grazing till mid January. Also running 2 to 1 hfrs to bulls so far and most of the heavier bw cows yet to go. So far a low of 66 to a high of 86 but the top end will change.
Last two guesses are closest but no bonus yet!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 5:37:21 GMT -6
82 pounds, we had an 80 pound heifer Monday.
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Post by picketwire on Feb 26, 2015 5:44:22 GMT -6
You got it!
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Post by bookcliff on Feb 26, 2015 9:33:35 GMT -6
I'll give you a little story about BW's, BW EPD's and the Hereford breed......................
We semen checked the range bull pen on Tuesday and my vet askes me do you know the outfit where all those heifers Marty Becker (a commercial guy here) bought last fall where they get their bulls from and I said sure, why. Matt goes to telling me about the complete wreck Marty is having and I mean wreck, pulling most of em and the ones that ain't are getting c-sectioned.
now before I go any futher, I am not giong to name the breeder of the heifers nor that breeders high profile polled hereford seedstock provider. also bear in mind that Marty Becker and his crew calve over 100 heifers each spring and fall, run probably between the combined fall and spring cows about 400 head of cows and run a pile of wheat pasture cattle. he buys alot of yrling heifers breds em and calves em or buys em as breds and calves em out and resells em. I personally know Marty and most of his crew and them boys damn sure enough know what their diong. as far as the set of hiefers in reference to my story their were 25 of em.
now on with the story,
these heifers were all F1 red Angus X polled herefords bred polled hereford. the particular herd that provided the polled blood did so both on the heifers these selves and the bulls that bred them. the EPD's in that seedstock herd tend to be blue box, but if one truely knows the pedigrees there ain't no way those bulls are a 0 or 1 on BW and I beleive the BW's posted on their bulls are the product of fire and ice matings to try and midigate their reputation for big BW I see given what I know about the pedigrees both from previous personal use and what I have been told by others. all that combined with contemporary grouping that in my mind is not how most guys I cowboy with or in the purebred cicles run with think is proper medthodology.
thus you have the following results.....
a feller who doesn't know much of anything about Herefords, much less hereford pedigrees who buys a set polled hereford X bred heifers bred to polled herefords with BW and CE EPD's that every source that mentions hereford EPD's say those numbers mean heifer numbers but however he is now either pulling of c-secioning 100+ lb calves outa 1st calf heifers.
way to go $%&^#@&@ and %^&*#*@&^................
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 13:09:50 GMT -6
Colder than usual temps and higher than usual precipitation have pushed up the birth weights this year. Nothing a petite lil Grey Brahman cannot handle, though. Haha
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Post by Glenn on Feb 26, 2015 13:33:38 GMT -6
I'm only 10 calves into the registered herd but mine have tended much lighter this spring EXCEPT for yesterday's outlier!!! 110#! Absolutely no problems for cow or calf. Just BIG.
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Post by timbernt on Feb 26, 2015 15:44:47 GMT -6
Tom, that is why the bias us old horned breeders have against Polled breeders is so ingrained. It seems about every time a commercial cowman tries them the results are a wreck and Herefords lose one more customer that will never be back. It is not horned vs polled, it is real world vs fairy tale EPD's and no connection to the world the real cowmen have to operate in. MO is full of those type of Hereford breeders and lots of black cows, but the serious commercial guys have learned a hard lesson and won't be back. That is why you almost have to market our type of Herefords as a different breed.
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Post by picketwire on Feb 27, 2015 2:21:10 GMT -6
I still have a hard time understanding the problem or worry of a horned Hereford bull on a set of black cows. Are there just not enough generations of polled black or is it something else entirely? We have been sending several bulls into large black cowherds that want horned bulls because the polleds didn't/couldnt get the job done. And some of these herds are quite aways from here. Now I do hear of places that get along just fine too, but it sure has served us well. Right type vs wrong type I guess or how deep does it go? I really wonder how many beef cow owners really know about anything other than epd's. . .
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Post by elkwc on Feb 27, 2015 5:52:48 GMT -6
I still have a hard time understanding the problem or worry of a horned Hereford bull on a set of black cows. Are there just not enough generations of polled black or is it something else entirely? We have been sending several bulls into large black cowherds that want horned bulls because the polleds didn't/couldnt get the job done. And some of these herds are quite aways from here. Now I do hear of places that get along just fine too, but it sure has served us well. Right type vs wrong type I guess or how deep does it go? I really wonder how many beef cow owners really know about anything other than epd's. . . I'll make a quick reply. I know in the black herd I'm helping with that it evidently isn't true polled black. I feel there are several reasons. Some of the "registered" Angus bulls have long scuds. Theu seem to be where most of the horns come. She had another "registered" Angus that I think may of got some horns also. She only had two black cows with horns but gets 5-10 calves a year with them. Most aren't as long but still there. I looked at a very nice yearling Angus bull recently that had scurs. My guess is there is some impurity somewhere. The horn issue is why she wanted a polled bull but most of those we found with the quality we want had either scurs or horns. I've seen the same thing here. The demand for horned bulls seems to be high. Many of those trying polled bulls in this area are either going to horned bulls, going back to something black or going Red Angus. Last year I saw a commercial breeder switch back after one year of using the polled bulls. Calving issues on heifers, lack of performance and lack of muscling/quality are the reasons I'm hearing from those who are switching.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 7:55:35 GMT -6
Dr. Tim you will have a hard time finding a tighter fisted cheapskate than yours truly. After I finish pinching a penny Abe Lincoln looks like Mr. Clean. Haha So I am about as commercial as you get and had no problems with polled and would use polled again.
Just one man's opinion but what turns people off about Hereford are the sagging udders with teats that look like a four pack of Oscar Meyer wieners.
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Post by timbernt on Feb 27, 2015 11:39:17 GMT -6
jw, my hope is that everyone that uses Hereford genetics (horned or polled) has the same experience and feeling. I certainly get no satisfaction from anyone having a bad experience with Hereford genetics. Unfortunately, I hear too many bad experiences with Polled Hereford genetics in MO.
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Post by timbernt on Feb 27, 2015 12:27:08 GMT -6
As I think about what we are describing, I sincerely wish I was on the same page as the other Hereford breeders in my state. To be more specific, I wish the focus of Polled Hereford breeders was commercial. There is nothing I would like more than to be able to visit neighboring herds and find cattle to use that are acclimated to our environment. A big part of the cattle business is the kinship with fellow cattlemen. I would love to be able to go to a Journagan or Roth or Mo state sale and see real cattlemen buying their next commercial bull. To put it in a nutshell, that doesn't happen and I doubt it ever will. As long as all our polled breeders are hobby people who spend their time chasing funny money, made up EPD's, and bitching about the local salebarn, we will continue to erode our customer base. And there isn't much left to lose.
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Post by kph on Feb 27, 2015 14:13:34 GMT -6
I use similar system as Picketwire, but use a rope hobble over hock and knee. They struggle more but gets the long legged ones off the ground better.
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Post by whiteface on Feb 27, 2015 15:48:51 GMT -6
jw, my hope is that everyone that uses Hereford genetics (horned or polled) has the same experience and feeling. I certainly get no satisfaction from anyone having a bad experience with Hereford genetics. Unfortunately, I hear too many bad experiences with Polled Hereford genetics in MO. Must be a MO thing. There's good polled operations in KS and NE.
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Post by elkwc on Feb 27, 2015 16:28:18 GMT -6
jw, my hope is that everyone that uses Hereford genetics (horned or polled) has the same experience and feeling. I certainly get no satisfaction from anyone having a bad experience with Hereford genetics. Unfortunately, I hear too many bad experiences with Polled Hereford genetics in MO. Must be a MO thing. There's good polled operations in KS and NE. I've found a few what I consider good polled cattle that will survive and perform in a cake and grass operation in SW KS, the OK Panhandle and western OK but not many. Many more high priced cattle that are the type that are docked heavily at the sale barn. Most of the polled cows I've seen have decent to good udders. It is the lack of muscling, lack of frame and poor legs and feet that are the common issues I see. It seems many want to talk about udders and teats instead of addressing the real issues. Just my observations.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 27, 2015 18:20:10 GMT -6
Not saying it applies to all polled breeders, but do you think maybe some new breeders that aren't used to cattle think polled cattle are "safer" and then make poor breeding decisions because of inexperience? It also seems like there's a larger percentage of show cattle that are polled than horned. Just sitting here thinking about what could cause the differences...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 22:34:18 GMT -6
Not saying it applies to all polled breeders, but do you think maybe some new breeders that aren't used to cattle think polled cattle are "safer" and then make poor breeding decisions because of inexperience? It also seems like there's a larger percentage of show cattle that are polled than horned. Just sitting here thinking about what could cause the differences... I bite my tongue a lot with how the Polleds get bashed at times on this board. There are some very good Polled genetics out there if you do your homework and maybe its more of a regional thing but whenever we've had a horned bull or heifer in our sale offerings as a polled breeder the horned calves seem to be less in demand here even with the commercial breeders. The average commercial breeder is not stupid, he knows a good bull when he sees one and a lot of them around here do not like horns so when we list our bulls for sale we have never had a problem finding buyers for our Polled bulls. If you breed them right the horn status should not matter
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Post by shiloh on Feb 28, 2015 8:00:07 GMT -6
Not saying it applies to all polled breeders, but do you think maybe some new breeders that aren't used to cattle think polled cattle are "safer" and then make poor breeding decisions because of inexperience? It also seems like there's a larger percentage of show cattle that are polled than horned. Just sitting here thinking about what could cause the differences... I bite my tongue a lot with how the Polleds get bashed at times on this board. There are some very good Polled genetics out there if you do your homework and maybe its more of a regional thing but whenever we've had a horned bull or heifer in our sale offerings as a polled breeder the horned calves seem to be less in demand here even with the commercial breeders. The average commercial breeder is not stupid, he knows a good bull when he sees one and a lot of them around here do not like horns so when we list our bulls for sale we have never had a problem finding buyers for our Polled bulls. If you breed them right the horn status should not matter I apologize if I offended you sph, that was not my intention. Like I said, I don't think it applies to everyone who breeds polled cattle. Everyone knows, and even you have to admit that the average polled Hereford is different from the average Hereford. It's not my job to say which is better, the customers tell us what they want, and if you have no problems selling your bulls, then obviously you are doing a great job breeding for your market. I was just thinking out loud about the general differences, but I completely agree, "If you breed them right, the horn status should not matter."
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Post by herfdog on Feb 28, 2015 8:41:28 GMT -6
I bite my tongue a lot with how the Polleds get bashed at times on this board. There are some very good Polled genetics out there if you do your homework and maybe its more of a regional thing but whenever we've had a horned bull or heifer in our sale offerings as a polled breeder the horned calves seem to be less in demand here even with the commercial breeders. The average commercial breeder is not stupid, he knows a good bull when he sees one and a lot of them around here do not like horns so when we list our bulls for sale we have never had a problem finding buyers for our Polled bulls. If you breed them right the horn status should not matter I apologize if I offended you sph, that was not my intention. Like I said, I don't think it applies to everyone who breeds polled cattle. Everyone knows, and even you have to admit that the average polled Hereford is different from the average Hereford. It's not my job to say which is better, the customers tell us what they want, and if you have no problems selling your bulls, then obviously you are doing a great job breeding for your market. I was just thinking out loud about the general differences, but I completely agree, "If you breed them right, the horn status should not matter." Not everyone knows. Could you tell me the difference between the average polled Hereford and the average Hereford?
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Post by elkwc on Feb 28, 2015 9:06:14 GMT -6
I apologize if I offended you sph, that was not my intention. Like I said, I don't think it applies to everyone who breeds polled cattle. Everyone knows, and even you have to admit that the average polled Hereford is different from the average Hereford. It's not my job to say which is better, the customers tell us what they want, and if you have no problems selling your bulls, then obviously you are doing a great job breeding for your market. I was just thinking out loud about the general differences, but I completely agree, "If you breed them right, the horn status should not matter." Not everyone knows. Could you tell me the difference between the average polled Hereford and the average Hereford? I've listed the differences I've seen in the last year several times on this forum. I'll just list the two main differences I've seen. The Polled cattle I've seen overall and there are exceptions exhibit less muscling especially in the hindquarters and less frame. Many of these orginated from the current popular polled breeders and bloodlines. I've seen exceptions and could list them but these differences have been hashed and rehashed several times on this forum. I was looking at pics in the recenth AHA World and saw many teepee hips on the bulls and also see them in the sale catalogs. Good square hips are hard to find on polled cattle in this area.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 10:15:46 GMT -6
No offense taken, I just don't get why as Hereford breeders there are still people out there with a bias against polleds still. We're one breed and I just don't find it productive to be saying 1 type of Hereford is better than the other because of horned status. It's just like how people get frustrated with the stigma people put on Herefords about pinkeye and prolapse.
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Post by bookcliff on Feb 28, 2015 13:42:38 GMT -6
No offense taken, I just don't get why as Hereford breeders there are still people out there with a bias against polleds still. We're one breed and I just don't find it productive to be saying 1 type of Hereford is better than the other because of horned status. It's just like how people get frustrated with the stigma people put on Herefords about pinkeye and prolapse. sorry, but I disagree that we are "one breed." they both may have the same markings but in general as a population, the weighting towards emphasis of different selection criteria by which the general current genetic populations in each were developed for over time has be sustantially different.
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Post by timbernt on Feb 28, 2015 19:41:16 GMT -6
Once again I agree with Tom; there is a real dichotomy between the two breeds. My rant about the MO Hereford breeders was apparently taken out of context. MO has lots of Polled Hereford breeders who are at the leading edge of current Hereford genetics. There are no better genetics in the breed if you believe in what is going on in the breed. I am afraid those genetics are not acceptable in todays commercial world. The current EVP search reminds old farts like me that we are history and have no real input. As we see the hobby people getting more and more influence it scares us about the future. sph, you listen to Jack Ward for breeding direction. I listen to livestock market owners and commercial producers. That is probably why Monday morning I sent 2 young bulls to an Iowa producer who swore he would never go back to the Iowa Beef Expo for genetics. If it wasn't for old farts like me there would be one fewer commercial man using Herefords. It is not a disagreement with your lack of horns, it is a disagreement with your breeding philosophy. Probably the only thing we can agree on is to be civil and that we both love seeing Hereford cattle on green grass.
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Post by cflory on Feb 28, 2015 21:37:41 GMT -6
Can you imagine what we would have to work with today if all the Horned breeders I have looked up to my whole life would have put half as much energy into improving the polled side of the breed as they did bashing it?
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Post by bookcliff on Feb 28, 2015 22:00:12 GMT -6
Can you imagine what we would have to work with today if all the Horned breeders I have looked up to my whole life would have put half as much energy into improving the polled side of the breed as they did bashing it? I have a question, why is it up to the horned breeders to make polled cattle more relavent in the commerical industry?. and this ain't directed towards your program, on the contrary, if a majority of the polled segment also did what you and your dad have done over the years of breeding for commerically relavant type of genetics and phenotype I don't think we would be having this discussion over and over and over on herftalk.
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