Black Herefords

[moon]

The guy that formed the BHA was an attorney whose office was in Kansas City. He, I believe, was the owner of Blue Jacket Herefords in Eastern Kansas. He did have correspondence with Hop at AHA but what I was shown mainly related to performance issues and the direction of the Horned Hereford breed as he was very concerned with breed policy during Hop's reign. When this attorney dispersed in 95 or 96 his remaining crossbreds were purchased by the face of BHA. The "HEREFORD" name thing is my opinion is a dead issue and going nowhere since the word "hereford" has been in the public domain since well almost forever. Second, since the word "black" is used with it there is no confusion by the general public. Third, the word "hereford" has not been trademarked, however, Certified Hereford Beef is. If you think there was "consent", the info I have heard about the office honchos in KC back then did not leave a papertrail, but true believers can try to request board minutes from that time period or look up board members from that era. I doubt they would know since most all things started from within the walls of AHA headquarters, but in reality does it really matter.

[Deleted]

Aug 6, 2013 19:29:53 GMT -6 moon said:

The guy that formed the BHA was an attorney whose office was in Kansas City. He, I believe, was the owner of Blue Jacket Herefords in Eastern Kansas. He did have correspondence with Hop at AHA but what I was shown mainly related to performance issues and the direction of the Horned Hereford breed as he was very concerned with breed policy during Hop's reign. When this attorney dispersed in 95 or 96 his remaining crossbreds were purchased by the face of BHA. The "HEREFORD" name thing is my opinion is a dead issue and going nowhere since the word "hereford" has been in the public domain since well almost forever. Second, since the word "black" is used with it there is no confusion by the general public. Third, the word "hereford" has not been trademarked, however, Certified Hereford Beef is. If you think there was "consent", the info I have heard about the office honchos in KC back then did not leave a papertrail, but true believers can try to request board minutes from that time period or look up board members from that era. I doubt they would know since most all things started from within the walls of AHA headquarters, but in reality does it really matter.

Using "Black Hereford". Does indeed create confusion. It states they are Hereford, when they are not. 20 years is a long time to take no action, so it may be a dead issue. It would be ironic that the initiator of "Black Herefords" was motivated to start the breed by Hop's actions and the Black Herefords were allowed to steal the name because of Hop's inaction.

[moon]

Based upon the correspondence I was allowed to read, Mr. Gage was motivated by his own convictions. I was told he was the attorney for I think Milking Shorthorns and maybe a pork breed assn., I believe Poland China, so he represented smaller breed memberships. His letters to Hop were on topics concerning loss of market share and issues he believed were of importance to commercial producers. From what I read Hop was not concerned with those issues which Mr. Gage attempted to address with him. Since the word "Hereford" could not be trademarked I do not think Hop was in a position to act or not act, so "steal" I think is inappropriate since everyone who I have heard from said Mr. Gage was a man of high integrity, so I for one do not see any irony, only a man motivated by his own beliefs and not to ride coattails or put a burr under someone's saddle pad. I never met him so just my own opinion based upon the evidence presented to me and my analysis of it, right or wrong in the eyes of others.

[Deleted]

Aug 6, 2013 20:32:13 GMT -6 moon said:

Based upon the correspondence I was allowed to read, Mr. Gage was motivated by his own convictions. I was told he was the attorney for I think Milking Shorthorns and maybe a pork breed assn., I believe Poland China, so he represented smaller breed memberships. His letters to Hop were on topics concerning loss of market share and issues he believed were of importance to commercial producers. From what I read Hop was not concerned with those issues which Mr. Gage attempted to address with him. Since the word "Hereford" could not be trademarked I do not think Hop was in a position to act or not act, so "steal" I think is inappropriate since everyone who I have heard from said Mr. Gage was a man of high integrity, so I for one do not see any irony, only a man motivated by his own beliefs and not to ride coattails or put a burr under someone's saddle pad. I never met him so just my own opinion based upon the evidence presented to me and my analysis of it, right or wrong in the eyes of others.

Hereford isn't just a word, its a breed of cattle and there is no reason why Hop couldn't have stopped them from using it if he had pursued it, or wanted to pursue it. Black Herefords would be nothing but another composite breed if they weren't being allowed to use the name of a purebred, registered breed. It is unprecedented.

[moon]

AHA did not own the word, and Hop most likely did not see it as any credible threat. No one stopped "Miniature Herefords" or even the use of "Polled Herefords",or for that matter "ChiAngus". I am sure there are others. Before you can claim "there is no reason why Hop couldn't have" you must first give reasons how he could have. Before you can stop something in the manner you are possibly suggesting you must have, in what I have seen, strong legal precedent to support your position to obtain a court order such as injunction prohibiting use of the word. I do not disagree they are a composite, which was originally coined to avoid reference to being crossbred. It may be upsetting to some BHA is using the word hereford, to me by my simple way of thinking they are crossbreds the same as Limflex, ChiAngus, Braford, even Brangus, etc., and true progressive hereford breeders should be distracted from what has turned the tide so to speak over the past few years in regaining market share in the commercial/beef cattle industry. From my perspective "There ain't nothing like the real thing baby" so back to HerefordTalk.

[moon]

Sorry, "should not be distracted"

[Jobulls]

I agree with the above statement. Let's get back to Hereford talk. The Black Hereford Association filed its name as a trademark back in 2002. Under the Lanham Act (I believe) it is difficult to challenge a trademark after five years. This really is a pointless conversation. I said it rudely above ("just deal with it"). I apologize to those that it offended. Really, the name issue is over, so lets talk about Hereford issues. The trademark filing is probably more definite than any of Gage's conversations or understandings. I was genuine in asking what bulls others would suggest, but I would rather this thread die and another start. This thread has gotten too controversial. Remember, I have stated throughout this thread that I support the red Herefords, and would rather the focus shift back. If someone has questions about Black Herefords, maybe a private message would be better. Thanks for all the opinions though. 

[hoekland]

Jobulls, in all sincerity, try and understand what is desired in herefords and why and then try and imitate that with your black cattle. I'm still waiting for you guys to place those bulls in order of merit. It's not a trick question and you might learn something from it....

[Jobulls]

I am not getting sucked back in, but I will post pictures again for advertisement (we are at 2,200 hits). As I stated, I think ranking bulls depends on the cow that I am putting the bull with. Some cows need more thickness, some need higher percentages, some need more milk, etc. For traditional breed characteristics, which is what was mentioned above, I like the Y413 bull the best. He is really long, thick, and has good pigment. 

I keep getting complaints that the Hereford guys want to talk about Herefords, but then they keep talking about Black Herefords. I really think we should move on. I even posted a few comments about Hereford threads to help shift to Herefords. You would think that the Hereford breeders would not want 2,200 hits learning about an alternative, Black Herefords. We should probably move on. 



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[Jobulls]

Except for the horns, I think this bull would probably go in the top three of my herd bulls for traditional breed characteristics.  The picture makes him look a little small on the back end, but he isn't. You can see the earlier post of when he was 3. He has good depth and length. 

[Jobulls]

I will admit from a show perspective that I do not know how to rank them. I don't show animals. I do like the traditional look of the Y413 bull, and the horned bull (9454) above. I think the 680 bull below has traditional breed characteristics. I also would put my avatar (Z928) up with these four. If I am ranking for size, growth, milking ability, calving ease, etc., the ranking may change. This is just for traditional characteristics. 

"try and understand what is desired in herefords"

I don't raise show cattle, but I will sell approximately 45 bulls this year. I think I understand what is desired by my buyers of bulls. That is why I turned to polled Black Herefords. They are more desired for my market, but maybe not for yours. I don't think that Hoekland knows "what is desired in herefords" everywhere or by my buyers. My buyers are mostly repeat, and they like Black Herefords. You produce the bulls that your buyers "desire", if you produce bulls. I won't say you don't understand what they desire. In fact, I am trying to avoid personal attacks although they are being made. Maybe you run primarily in pastures. Maybe you run on the high forest or desert like we do. You produce what is best and what is "desired" for your area. How about ending the discussion like that. I am sure that you are producing the best genetics for your area and environment. I will not attack how you are managing your herd or your animals. I will also not say that you do not understand Hereford breeding or traits. I bet that Hoeklands buyers like and desire what he/she is producing or he/she wouldn't produce those animals. 

I also understand that my herd can improve. I am working on that. I hope you are also. I liked George's comment above about constantly trying to improve. All four of the bulls I just mentioned can improve. I do not have the "ultimate" bull. I will never have that bull, because I will always believe I can improve on any bull I have. 

We ought to shift back to a discussion on Herefords. It would make a lot of people happy. Do any of us believe that we are going to convince each other of our view point? If not, then is this discussion necessary? Let's just agree to disagree on the cattle that we like, and get back to discussing Herefords on the Hereford Talk Board.

Unless the Hereford breeders want to draw even more attention to Black Herefords. We are at 2,200 hits. It is probably time to change the discussion (however, it is free advertisement for Black Herefords). Maybe people have read this post that are just being introduced to Black Herefords. I can answer any questions you might have. Just send me a personal message. 

[hoekland]

I'm wasting my time on you.

[Jobulls]

That is what I just said. I am not going to convince you, and you are not going to convince me. Thanks for trying. Back to Herefords?

[Deleted]

Aug 6, 2013 21:43:06 GMT -6 moon said:

AHA did not own the word, and Hop most likely did not see it as any credible threat. No one stopped "Miniature Herefords" or even the use of "Polled Herefords",or for that matter "ChiAngus". I am sure there are others. Before you can claim "there is no reason why Hop couldn't have" you must first give reasons how he could have. Before you can stop something in the manner you are possibly suggesting you must have, in what I have seen, strong legal precedent to support your position to obtain a court order such as injunction prohibiting use of the word. I do not disagree they are a composite, which was originally coined to avoid reference to being crossbred. It may be upsetting to some BHA is using the word hereford, to me by my simple way of thinking they are crossbreds the same as Limflex, ChiAngus, Braford, even Brangus, etc., and true progressive hereford breeders should be distracted from what has turned the tide so to speak over the past few years in regaining market share in the commercial/beef cattle industry. From my perspective "There ain't nothing like the real thing baby" so back to HerefordTalk.

Miniature Hereford and polled Hereford are straight Hereford and in the Hereford herd book. Black Herefords aren't in the Hereford herd book. That out to be a red flag to anyone thinking about making an honest investment in a breed of cattle. It sure has become a red flag to me since this discussion has started here on Herefordtalk. Sometimes it's best to forego short term profits to maintain my long term goals. Often times the quick and easy route leads you to a dead end.

[jayh]

I am thinking on raising horned baldies. Anyone want to start with me. I already have one. she can be our donor cow, lol.

[jayh]

Aug 7, 2013 0:08:58 GMT -6 Jobulls said:

Except for the horns, I think this bull would probably go in the top three of my herd bulls for traditional breed characteristics.  The picture makes him look a little small on the back end, but he isn't. You can see the earlier post of when he was 3. He has good depth and length. 


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should have been cut. He is nothing more than a funnel butted baldie. He doesn't have near the capacity or volume needed to survive like a traditional Hereford.

While Harley and I disagree on some things he has some very good bulls and cows. You need to look up old posts on CT and here and just look at the type and phenotype of those animals. VERY traditional functional and adaptable animals that make you money and keep people coming back. You put a black hide on them and they would be what you are looking for.

[picketwire]

Aug 6, 2013 17:59:11 GMT -6 Jobulls said:

We have used Mytty in Focus, B/R New Frontier 095, B/R New Design 038, Generation Band 505, Inniway Right Time 904, and DHD Traveler 6807. 

We also have some F1s out of the Traveler lines and the Sleep Easy lines. We are not using as many F1s, because we have to breed up to 87.5% Hereford, but we are introducing F1s with some of these lines. We don't use a lot of F1s, because we are mostly coming from the Hereford side.  

One of our bulls has Ideal, Traveler, and New Trend in his lines. Another of our bulls has GDAR Royce 131. I would have to look at the papers on the others, but the Angus is a ways back. 

I am new to the Angus side. I know the Hereford side a lot better. We have been raising Herefords my entire life, but the Angus side is new. 

Suggestions here would be helpful also. I rely on my ABS rep some, which is not always good. 

Always a dangerous gamble to rely on the word of a sales rep without verifying what it is you need genotype and phenotype wise. It is too easy for semen rep's to 'toe' the company line on promoting a bull rather than being completely open about all aspects of any one bull independent of popularity. Too few of the bulls you mentioned nicked well with any Herefords in a lot of the various traveling that I used to do on the 'other' side. To this day, however, I don't mind seeing Royce 131 in a pedigree along with New trend in an angus pedigree. Any more of my comments on the bulls used will be forwarded in a PM.