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Post by hoekland on Aug 5, 2013 10:34:57 GMT -6
You can argue all you like, but the fact remains that Hereford and angus have closed herdbooks, therefore breeding up is not permitted, not red nor black.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 11:00:40 GMT -6
I do not disagree with that. My cattle are registered Black Herefords not hereford or angus.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 11:02:03 GMT -6
You can argue all you like, but the fact remains that Hereford and angus have closed herdbooks, therefore breeding up is not permitted, not red nor black. I am guessing the BH assn maintains its own "herd book" separate from the AHA and WHC. But the issue of using the Hereford name is a good one. Do any of you BH members know if the AHA gave the BHA permission to use the Hereford name or was permission given through "implied conscent" when no action was taken to prevent the BHA from using the "Hereford" name?
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Post by jhambley on Aug 5, 2013 12:40:26 GMT -6
I have to believe if they named them "White Head Angus" they would have been contacted by a few attorneys on behalf of the other Association.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 12:54:30 GMT -6
I have to believe if they named them "White Head Angus" they would have been contacted by a few attorneys on behalf of the other Association. Makes me wonder if some conscent was given. I know there were connections between staff at the two associations. I would think it would have been a simple matter to fight the name use when the BHA was first being organized if anyone pursued it. Of course this is the same AHA that have us Titan, two time Denver champ Tex Prime Time and countless others, so their record on defending the Hereford name may not be any better than their record on defending the herd book.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 5, 2013 13:22:57 GMT -6
There had to be consent. They advertise in our breed publications. (Or am I just thinking about Hereford America?)(I could swear that I have seen stuff in the HW)(Pretty sure I've seen stuff in the Texas Hereford magazine too......
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Post by mrvictordomino on Aug 5, 2013 14:53:52 GMT -6
This site is Hereford Talk.... Maybe time for someone to start a Black Hereford or White faced Angus site??
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Post by Mickelson on Aug 5, 2013 19:01:15 GMT -6
This site is Hereford Talk.... Maybe time for someone to start a Black Hereford or White faced Angus site?? Good idea.
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Aug 5, 2013 19:43:44 GMT -6
I have to believe if they named them "White Head Angus" they would have been contacted by a few attorneys on behalf of the other Association. Here in Argentina the Association has trademarked the brand "Hereford", I understand for merchandising wine and some other stuff. I think it's a very good decision and eventually will protect us of getting Hereford Negro around.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 20:29:24 GMT -6
I have heard talk of some agreement between the Associations. I can't remember the details. I remember talking about some issue and we made the decision based on the understanding between the Associations.
I agree, this is not the best site for Black Hereford issues. Sorry to hijack the discussion. I just googled my ranch name and this board was making fun of my bull. The comments showed lack of understanding so i joined. Otherwise I would have left it alone.
In fairness, this board has discussed Black Herefords off and on for years. I just want to stress that we are using the top Hereford bulls so this board does not need to question our quality. I see us as being on the same team. We will use the best genetics produced by the red Herefords, so keep fighting the fight.
George, I know you have been watching since your posts about Curve Bender years ago. I will have the bull you are looking for in our next year crop (homozygous black, homozygous polled, 75% Hereford or more, and great volume). I think Z928 would surprise you. I will get you a few straws for cheap. Just contact me.
I will put one more idea out there. The Hereford Association maintains a separate registry for Brafords. I am surprised the Association has not suggested this for Black Herefords. That is how polled cattle started (as a separate registry, I believe). Other breeds do it.
Thanks for all the group is doing.
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Post by picketwire on Aug 6, 2013 0:09:43 GMT -6
I was hoping with the addition of jobulls and chbh that we would get a little more insight into the process and progress of creating black baldie seedstock. With all due respect I cannot reconcile calling them black herefords. If you can good for you, I have no problem with that.
Using 'top' bulls does not a program make nor does it guarantee 'quality', it is the mating's and the identification of which matings are working that will ultimately make or break the program, IMO. How many matings worked or 'nicked' and how many didn't? Nice to know the Hereford genetics going into the mix, what about the angus bloodlines?
In all fairness this board can and does get very critical of most all bulls and cattle posted, so don't feel that your bull was getting picked on or made fun of. You have posted some good looking bulls and some not so good looking bulls. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder as is quality. However, I must agree with several other posters that the quality shown can use some improvement. The cow pic posted is on the right track, IMO. I think the same of my own cattle and decided long ago that when I stop trying to improve my cattle, it is time to quit. I am sure you have the same kind of goals in mind for your program. Best of luck to accomplishing those goals.
On a separate note, I may be wrong but I believe that the Association (AHA) is contracted by the Brafords as well as a few other bos indicus based breeds to maintain a 'herdbook' and process pedigree and performance information. I would not have a problem with them maintaining a separate black baldie association herdbook if they were contracted for those services.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 9:59:43 GMT -6
That was all I was saying on the herd book issue. I think the Association should have looked at the second registry like with the Brafords.
I agree with the need to always improve. I also understand the trouble with different crosses. We have been traditionally Line 1. As we go polled and black, some crosses are better than others. I also bought some polled cows with heavy Remitall breeding, and they are really good cows. Our Black Hereford herd bulls are mostly Felton bred. Of course Rib Eye and Huth Prospector go back to Felton 517. The Schu-lar 3T bull also goes that direction (similar to On Target). I am using 3027 because I have always loved his calves (even despite the horns). The Revolution bulls is new to my herd but is Remitall bred, so it should work.
If you have ideas then let me know. I am always interested in hearing how different Hereford families work when crossed. Remember our base is Line 1 Cooper and Holden bred. I am using the Felton 517 lines heavily.
Some of the Black Hereford breeders are using Helton, Proficient, and P606 lines. I will probably use more Felton lines like KCF Bennett 10H and the Trust bull next year. Let me know your thoughts.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 6, 2013 10:10:55 GMT -6
You want a couple of honest OPINIONS? And that is all it is "One Man's Opinion"
Steer clear of Trust. Keep using 3027, and consider his son 5216.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 10:20:15 GMT -6
Interesting. Why not Trust? I will keep using 3027. What about 10H?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 13:12:19 GMT -6
That was all I was saying on the herd book issue. I think the Association should have looked at the second registry like with the Brafords. They might have if the name of the breed wasn't Black Hereford. In my opinion, that name was picked either to ride the coattails or be a burr under the saddle blanket.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 13:19:35 GMT -6
Or the goal is to offer everything the Hereford is and be black. (Knowing that we have a ways to go genetically considering this is new breed and Herefords have a very large head start) but our goal is to improve the breed with every calf crop.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 13:21:34 GMT -6
but our goal is to improve the breed with every calf crop. That better be the goal of every breeder, regardless of the breed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 13:27:01 GMT -6
Or the goal is to offer everything the Hereford is and be black. (Knowing that we have a ways to go genetically considering this is new breed and Herefords have a very large head start) but our goal is to improve the breed with every calf crop. If you haven't attained a legal right to calling your cattle Hereford, sooner or later you might have to deal with that issue and it could be messy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 13:36:19 GMT -6
I would assume that it would have come up since the breed was established in 1994 almost 20 years ago. I am not sure but is there a statute of limitations as far as that goes. And considering we have so many people who were or still are part of the hereford assoc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 13:58:39 GMT -6
I would assume that it would have come up since the breed was established in 1994 almost 20 years ago. I am not sure but is there a statute of limitations as far as that goes. And considering we have so many people who were or still are part of the hereford assoc. If its been settled then there should be some record of it. I think the World Hereford Conference has the final say on what can be called a Hereford and they can boot out any animals or Associations that are calling non-Hereford animals Hereford. I know the WHC had the final say on whether the American Polled Hereford Assn could exist separate from the AHA. The BHA knows their cattle aren't straight Hereford, but still call them Hereford. I don't know what any statute of limitations would apply to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 14:07:52 GMT -6
That makes sense. I honestly do not know this is just my second year doing anything registered. I am probably not the person to be answering that question.
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Post by picketwire on Aug 6, 2013 17:00:27 GMT -6
I am still waiting to hear what angus genetics, i.e. bloodlines are involved. PM me if you don't want to let it be known publicly.
One can argue quality all day long but the simple fact of the matter is the 'best' of one breed mated to the 'best' of another breed still does not guarantee quality. If the underlying factor is complete all around improvement, I wonder if the total population is large enough yet. ME personally, I would not be so consumed with polled/horned aspect of it so long as the biological type is right for efficient conversion of grass and other feedstuffs to beef. I can understand the desire for homozygous black, but I still feel it is easier and more profitable to stay at that first generation mating as you rapidly begin to lose the effects of heterosis after that. If it is truly about hide color, then you will find many discussions on here on the perils of single trait selection.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 17:21:12 GMT -6
I am not sure on the angus side what is good but here are a few from my pedigrees. Finks Pride 4131 02 N T and some other finks bulls, some vermilion,gdar Royce, prompter. If any of those mean anything to you and most of that is three to four generations back.
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 6, 2013 17:59:11 GMT -6
We have used Mytty in Focus, B/R New Frontier 095, B/R New Design 038, Generation Band 505, Inniway Right Time 904, and DHD Traveler 6807.
We also have some F1s out of the Traveler lines and the Sleep Easy lines. We are not using as many F1s, because we have to breed up to 87.5% Hereford, but we are introducing F1s with some of these lines. We don't use a lot of F1s, because we are mostly coming from the Hereford side.
One of our bulls has Ideal, Traveler, and New Trend in his lines. Another of our bulls has GDAR Royce 131. I would have to look at the papers on the others, but the Angus is a ways back.
I am new to the Angus side. I know the Hereford side a lot better. We have been raising Herefords my entire life, but the Angus side is new.
Suggestions here would be helpful also. I rely on my ABS rep some, which is not always good.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 18:46:12 GMT -6
ME personally, I would not be so consumed with polled/horned aspect of it so long as the biological type is right for efficient conversion of grass and other feedstuffs to beef. Have you considered raising horned Angus, then you'd have the "best of both (your) worlds"?
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