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Post by Mickelson on Aug 1, 2013 22:30:38 GMT -6
Is your avatar the cream of your crop?
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Post by George on Aug 1, 2013 22:37:44 GMT -6
OK, jobulls, IF I was looking for a Black Hereford bull that would fit these needs:
Homozygous Black Homozygous Polled At least 75% Hereford Blood Add or maintain thickness Add or maintain sound structure Add volume
Any idea where I might find him? Name? Number? Picture?
Been looking for 5 years - and still looking...
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 1, 2013 23:03:00 GMT -6
That is a good point, and I am going to take it as a suggestion. I understand heterosis and I understand that if my bulls are of a higher percentage, then they should produce more heterosis for my buyers (assuming they are crossing them on another breed). However, remember that 87.5% is the minimum for purebred Black Herefords. We have some bulls this year that are 94% Hereford, and we will have some next year that are 97% Hereford. Maybe we will be able to keep pushing above that percentage. I would like to cross one of those 97% bulls on a 97% heifer and try to produce a homozygous black and homozygous polled bull that is 97%. However, we will have to see how they look.
I am always surprised at how hard the Hereford breeders push against the black hide. I would have thought the Gelbvieh breeders would have pushed the hardest, because their color is actually in their name. However, the Gelbviehs, Simmental, etc., have all gone black to take advantage of the Certified Black Angus Beef push. Most of those breeds use the 87.5% like the Black Herefords. I know that the red hide is hard to give up. My dad still misses looking out and seeing red and white cattle, and I also really like a traditional Hereford.
However, I think the key is to not fight internally. The Hereford breeders need to fight other breeds. (I will also pose that Hereford breeders and Black Hereford breeders should not attack each other, because the attacks discredit both breeds, because the Black Herefords are based on the Hereford. I am constantly reminding the Black Hereford breeders to talk up the Hereford breed). I was young during the polled/horned fight about what a "true Hereford" should look like. However, I think we fought too much internally and allowed the Angus to take over as the dominant breed. There is also a constant fight internally about how a Hereford should look. Hereford cattle have changed dramatically over the last 200 years. What does a "pure", "true", Hereford look like? Is it the original cow of Benjamin Tomkins in the 1740s, or the Cotmore bull at 3,900 lbs., in the 1830s, or is it the short thick Tarrington Idol bull of the 1930s? (My dad has shown me pictures of the calves he showed in the 60s and they don't look like the Hereford of today). Does it include bulls with damaged pedigrees out of Titan 23D, which may contain Simmental breeding? Should it have horns? I won't even dare say, "should it be red?" The 3900 lb., horned Hereford bull or 200 years ago is not the Hereford today. The breed changes, and these fights about "true Herefords" all bring down the breed. I know the answer many will give about being in the the registry continuously and that is a great definition.
The Hereford is constantly changing to meet industry demands, and I am very proud of how Hereford breeders are responding to the demands of the market right now. The articles in Hereford World are very exciting. I thought the results of the Association's push for data were dramatic. To see the breeders in the National Reference Sire Program jump from 50% Choice to 90% Choice was amazing. That is something to be proud of. Our Herefords can compete against the Angus in carcass traits, and they also bring all of the other advantages of the Hereford. Even though I am raising Black Herefords, I am still loyal to the Herefords. As the Herefords progress, then my Black Hereford herd progresses, because I have access to the genetics of the Herefords.
I am really excited about the genetic choices that we are making on our ranch. You can see from the list of sires that we are using good bulls. We also know of breeders that we work with using other bulls to produce good Black Herefords, such as Schu-lar 9R of 9L P606, EFBEEF Schu-lar Proficient N093, CRR Helton 980, and C Harland Too ET, to name a few. There are so many good bulls that a Black Hereford breeder can use to ingest red Hereford genetics. I want to bring all of the advantages of the Hereford in, but give my customers another choice besides Angus for producing black hides. I am not proposing that the Herefords should let the Black Herefords in. I wouldn't suggest this, because the Hereford Association and its breeders pride themselves on being "pure". That is good, but I am even more proud of the steps the Hereford breeders are taking to improve the breed. Good Job! I will take your suggestion and keep pushing the percentages higher.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 23:04:58 GMT -6
Welcome aboard...I guess this is the end of me poking fun at Black Herefords. I was shocked to hear your customers desired BH's. I'm sure there are good ones in any breed. Good luck to you. so we can poke fun at eachother about anything and everything but we can't poke fun at a guy selling baldies with nuts? ... there's a reason buyers like em knife cut.
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 1, 2013 23:46:05 GMT -6
My Avatar is Jo Money Train JN Z928. He is 75% Hereford, Homozygous Black, Homozygous Polled, and is a good long bull. This is a picture of him with mud on while working with the cows, so he is not conditioned for a show. He is a good bull. I wish he were 87.5%, and had more pigment. I have used a half brother to him and have been impressed with the thickness of the calves. I hope he produces similar calves. He is just a yearling so I have not seen any of his calves, so he is unproven. Is he the perfect Black Hereford, no, but I am not sure what that is.
In answer to your question, I am not really satisfied with any Black Hereford bull out there, but I also am never satisfied with genetics. I always think there is room for improvement. It also depends on what trait you are trying to improve in your herd. We only started going black in 2010, so there are not a lot of bulls that fit your description (homozygous black, homozygous polled, and 75% Hereford). We had really good red Hereford cattle. We had to ingest the black color with the bulls available, and now we are pushing those back to the good red Hereford bulls mentioned above. We will start to see some really nice bulls that match your description next spring; however, we really need to take it one more generation to get the percentages where I want them and to see homozygous sons out of the A.I. bulls we are using, so that will push us out to the 2017 spring sale. We are not just pushing it to black, we are trying to do it right, so it is going to take time.
If you really need a good bull now, here are some suggestions (realizing that we are producing better as we go).
JN Balder 9405 - Homozygous Black, but not sure about Homozygous Polled, and 82% Hereford. His mother is out of Feltons Long Ton 205, and his sire is out of Feltons 615. There is limited semen on this bull, but I have some. I also flushed his mother to a Schu-lar 3T of 206 5N son. He is owned by J&N Ranch.
JN Balder 9406 - Homozygous Black, but not sure about Homozygous Polled, and 82% Hereford. He had an ADG or 4.89 lbs., and is a great growth bull. I almost used him, but decided to use more red bulls. He is owned by Smithson Farms. I wish he had more white on his face.
JN Balder 0449 - Homozygous Black, Heterozygous Polled, and 82% Hereford. I have not looked at his data in a while, but he had impressive growth numbers and is a thick bull. Triple L has a good video of him on their website. I have used him by A.I.
WR Casinova 0712 - Homozygous Black, but not sure about Homozgous Polled, and 82% Hereford. I have not seen this bull in person, but I have heard he is a good thick, calving ease bull. He has good pigment. He is owned by the Wild Rose Ranch. (Again, I have never used him or seen him in person).
Jo Bull Advantage JN Y413 - Homozygous Black, Homozygous Polled, and 67% Hereford. I own this bull, and I have used him heavily on 100% red Herefords. I really like his calves. He has pigment and a traditional look. I wish he were higher percentage. I have a Homozygous black son out of him that will be 79% Hereford, and his mother traces back to JSF 37 271 Devo 23C, Kilmorlie SP Jordan 214B, and Remittall Boomer 46B. He is a late March calf, so I am seeing how he does. I also flushed a Black Hereford cow with good Line 1 genetics to this bull, so I should have a group of homozygous sons next year.
Jo Money Train JN Z928 - Homozygous Black, Homozygous Polled, and 75% Hereford. My avatar does not do him justice. I do not claim to be a photographer, and we do not push our herd bulls. He is really long, and thick. I am really excited that we were able to purchase him. He went #2 in the J&N sale for $10,000. His birth weight is a little high (90 lbs.), but his BW EPD is low, so we will see how that turns out next spring. He was not pushed like some of the Line 1 bulls that we have purchased. I really think he would be worth you trying.
JN Balder Z631 - Homozygous Black, Heterozygous Polled, and 82% Hereford. This bull is not the ultimate growth bull. His dad is the 9405 bull mentioned above, and has been a great calving ease bull. I am really excited to see how this bull does for calving ease. You can scratch his back in a field, and he has great pigment. He is a thick bull. The picture on my website was taken up on our forest property at about 8,500 feet. He still looked good, and he had been with the cows for two months.
Again, these bulls are not perfect, and I have been on these forums before where the certain users just attack anything. If you are genuine in asking and are really looking for a bull to use by A.I., then any of the above would work. If you are just asking to attack, then you will find holes in every bull mentioned. I will admit that we are just starting to make this transition. Now that we have the black in our herd, we can really focus on bringing in the high powered Hereford bulls.
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 2, 2013 0:17:14 GMT -6
If you are looking for a purebred Black Hereford bull, This is our 680 bull and he is 87.5% Hereford, and is homozygous black/heterozygous polled. He is in working clothes. I have two years of calves from him and they have been good. I think the bulls listed above are more powerful, but he does have a higher percentage and is a good all-around bull. I have used him on cows and heifers. This picture is at 2 years old. Attachment Deleted
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Post by George on Aug 2, 2013 8:59:03 GMT -6
Thanks for your answer! After seeing it, I think the short answer to my question is that the bull that I'm looking for doesn't yet exist in the Black Hereford breed - or he is so young that he's still sucking his momma. You said: Again, these bulls are not perfect, and I have been on these forums before where the certain users just attack anything. If you are genuine in asking and are really looking for a bull to use by A.I., then any of the above would work. If you are just asking to attack, then you will find holes in every bull mentioned. You use the word "attack". I prefer to use the word "criticize". Quite frankly, given the set of parameters that I provided, you weren't able to come up with an answer either. Like I said, I've been looking at Black Herefords for 5 years and I'm still looking! Those parameters were based on a semi-honest assessment of my own cowherd, and what I need to move them forward. Except for the "homozygous black" and "75% Hereford blood", it's what I've been looking for in Hereford bulls as well - and the Hereford bulls that I want to use in my herd aren't jumping off every page in the Hereford World either. But, at least there's some that would fit the bill.My CRITICISM of Black Herefords, in general, is that they possess neither the thickness or volume that is needed. I know that you said you were a bad photographer, but do you think a person looking at this picture would get the impression that this bull has the volume needed to sire "thrifty" calves and, more importantly, sire daughters that would have the volume to survive, raise a calf, and breed back in tough conditions?
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Post by George on Aug 2, 2013 9:40:03 GMT -6
FWIW, I DO like the look of this cow. I would like to see better teats on her, but other than that, she looks pretty good. And I'd still like to see even more volume on her.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2013 11:22:52 GMT -6
Thanks! I really like the 405 cow also. I have implanted 10 embryos out of her this year and have more in the tank. I am using a son and grandson out of her.
Keep watching and we will produce the bull you are looking for.
Out here the cows also have to be able to travel. We run on the BLM in the high desert in the winter and only get about 7" of rain a year. In the summer we are on the Forest with a change of elevation of 3,000 feet throughout the range (topping at 9,500). The cows have to feed up and down and cover a lot of ground. Most of our buyers run on similar ranges.
The cows don't sit around getting over weight and our bulls have to keep up. As I said, we don't over condition them. Some of our herd bulls are not seen for two or three months at a time. Herefords outperform the Angus in our conditions.
However, I like deep cows also. We are working on it. The bulls mentioned above like Domino 3027, Rib Eye, and Revolution will help.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2013 22:22:51 GMT -6
I actually own JN Baldee 405, and to be fair that picture was taken during one of the worst droughts and hottest summers. She is also 9 years old in that picture.
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 3, 2013 22:52:50 GMT -6
Welcome aboard! Now I won't feel as out numbered. The 405 cow is a daughter of Feltons Long Ton 205, which is a Felton 517 son. Here is a picture of the 405 grandson we own and are using (Pictured at 11.5 months). Attachment DeletedHere he is after chasing cows for three months (at 15 months). He is not a major growth bull, and was purchased as a heifer bull. I still think he has decent thickness and volume. Attachment DeletedHe (JN Balder Z631) is 82% Hereford and Homozygous Black. Here is the picture of the son, JN Balder 9405, that we are using (82% and Homozygous Black). www.jnranch.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/9405.jpg
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 3, 2013 23:03:20 GMT -6
If you like the thicker bulls, here is our Y413 bull. He is homozygous black and homozygous polled. The pictures were taken by me when he was 11 months old, and he had been in the mud. His calves have come out easy (we averaged 75 lbs. on heifers) and really grow. He has full pigment on both eyes. He has thickness and volume, and his calves have it also. Attachment DeletedAttachment DeletedAttachment Deleted
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 3, 2013 23:21:56 GMT -6
Here is a picture of our horned herd bull, JN Balder 9454. The quality on this picture is really poor, probably off my cell phone. We really liked his length and size, but we are trying to breed off the horns. This picture is at 3.5 years old. He is homozygous black. He would pass most breeders' thickness and volume test. Attachment Deleted
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 3, 2013 23:43:17 GMT -6
Here is our JN Balder 9471 herd bull. We liked his thickness also, but we have sold him to another buyer after using him 3 years. This is as a 3 year old. His calves grow really well on hard environments. I would call them "thrifty". He has a lot of length and thickness. His entire body is square. He is going to look really thick at five or six. Attachment DeletedWe have a couple more herd bulls, but this is enough for tonight. I still believe my Avatar's (Jo Money Train JN Z928) calves are going to be amazing. His length makes him look thinner than he is and he is a real nice bull. He had a 97% BW ratio, 115% WW ratio, and 106% YW ratio. Plus he is homozygous black and homozygous polled, and 75% Hereford. Some could say that these other herd bulls are thicker, but I have seen him in person.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2013 0:46:04 GMT -6
Have any of the big AI studs bought into any of these BH yet? They loved the Felton's breeding, I would think they would love these since they are strong in Felton's influence.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2013 0:55:09 GMT -6
Some of the smaller ones like SEK have. I have talked to others like Select Sires, Genex, and ABS. They say we need more volume to prove our EPD accuracy. They are also worried about volume of semen orders.
The semen market is slow. I sold semen on my bulls to about 12 different states this year. However, most orders were for 10 to 20 straws. My largest order was for 75 straws to MT. I was happy to see some repeats on my Y413 bull. However, we need more calves to prove EPDs. I am seeing more orders. I am hoping to ship to 20 states or more in 2014.
I have semen on my bulls at Hoffman A.I., and in my tank.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2013 15:24:35 GMT -6
I just AI'd a Revolution grand daughter to Jn Balder z631 one of Jobulls herd sires which should make a really good bh calf and high percentage. And as far as adding volume to the breed I am using my herd bull on a Rausch hereford cow that is pushing 1600 lbs with good height and a revolution daughter. This is the Rausch cow and her new heifer. Attachment Deleted
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Post by hoekland on Aug 4, 2013 23:25:09 GMT -6
It seems that you guys are still missing the point....
As a matter of interest, I'd like to see you black breeders place the bulls posted in this thread as you would in a hereford show. After that the rest of us can chime in. Just a heads up, breed character is also one of the characteristics a judge would be looking for....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 7:33:05 GMT -6
Just wondering what do you mean by breed character?
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Post by hoekland on Aug 5, 2013 8:08:08 GMT -6
Just wondering what do you mean by breed character? I rest my case....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 8:49:14 GMT -6
You rest your case really I ask an honest question and you can not answer it. I have never been a part of the show ring. I do not raise my cattle for the show ring I raise them to work.
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Post by jayh on Aug 5, 2013 9:16:02 GMT -6
You rest your case really I ask an honest question and you can not answer it. I have never been a part of the show ring. I do not raise my cattle for the show ring I raise them to work. I like the fact you say they have to work but. Why are you guys trying to reinvent the wheel. Herefords are supposed to be red and white. Trying to sell a black Hereford to a purebred Hereford breeder should b like trying to sell him a square wheel saying this is the updated better version. We all have ambitions and goals but why tinker with something that works.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 9:35:09 GMT -6
What works for one may not work for the other. I love Herefords, I started out with just a commercial herd of mostly Herefords and a hereford bull. When I sold my first group of calves they sold on average 25 cents per pound less than lesser calves that were black. So I started looking around and found black Herefords. I do not have a lot cattle I run about 20 head and I needed to maximize my profit. My goal is to not sell my bulls to people who run registered red Herefords if they want to buy one that's great, my goal is to give commercial breeders an option other than angus. The black Herefords have the ability to forage well, mother a great calf and they are just a docile as a red hereford. I tried angus first but hated all the attitude problems. I am not saying all angus are that way but I have never seen a hereford act that way and that is true with my black Herefords. I know our breed is young and we do not have the high powered bulls yet but we are striving to get there by introducing only the best hereford genetics. I have Felton blood, revolution blood, and Rausch blood. I know good Herefords and that is where I am trying to get mine. The way I see it you do not just have one choice for a truck company I.e. ford, dodge, chevy, and gmc. But every one has their own opinion on each and you have a choice to buy what you want and that is the same with the bulls. If you do not like it don't buy it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 9:37:42 GMT -6
We have never shown cattle. My family has just been producing hard working bulls for 40 years. A lot of our customers like the red bulls, and it sounds like you do. That is great, we will continue to develop them.
A lot of our buyers want black hides to participate in the Certified Black Angus Beef program. They don't want to get the recessive red gene because they run rotational crosses. We are producing a product that the market wants.
The red Hereford breeders can try and hold back the market. However,you can see that most breeds have switched and they had breeders pulling back like some on this board. The Hereford breed is willing to change frame size and carcass characteristics, and has dramatically redeveloped the Hereford many times (remember the first Herefords were horned and weighed 4,000 pounds). It is interesting that the breed will change all characteristics but color. Why is this?
Comparing show bulls is difficult. Our genetics could push 850 lb. wean weights and 1,450 lb. yearling weights. However, the show bulls that are pushed like that don't hold up. A lot are foundered ( we have bought a few). The rest are infertile. Talk to the semen barns. The over conditioned bulls don't produce good semen. I have collected on a lot of bulls, and the technicians always comment about how fertile our bulls are compared to the over conditioned bulls. There are some pushing show cattle on the black side. I might try it just to show what the bulls can do. I just hate doing that to a bull.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2013 9:50:18 GMT -6
Aren't Simmentals supposed to be yellow?
Aren't Gelbviehs supposed to be brown/yellow (the name says it)?
Is the Hereford supposed to be red and horned?
Why have the other breeds changed?
What is holding the Herefords back?
What happened to red Angus?
Well none of these questions matter. The Black Hereford breeders are not trying to convert the red Hereford Association. We have formed our own Association.
I still push for the red Hereford breeders. Keep doing a good job and we will take your genetics and turn them black. The market decides what is valuable. People want Herefords right now, and some want Black Herefords. We need to produce the Black Herefords for that market.
And Breed Character changes over time. Even in the show ring. Sometimes the ring is behind. It has happened with the Herefords. Look back mid century when the show judges had to do an about face on frame "breed characteristics".
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