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Post by ellettherefords on Jul 14, 2013 23:24:15 GMT -6
If this has been discussed before I apologize I looked and couldn't find it. I've read other forums on this subject and it always starts a fight but I want to know what a hereford site thinks. Good or bad what do you all think turning the hereford black. I think it could really turn out but it's gonna take time.
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Post by hrndherf on Jul 14, 2013 23:39:25 GMT -6
I have no interest-it's all yours. The quality I have seen so far is poor.
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Post by hoekland on Jul 15, 2013 0:59:27 GMT -6
The hereford herdbook has been closed since 1886, it is not possible to make a black hereford. I don't care what anyone else do or what they call them, as long as they don't call them Herefords.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2013 4:16:50 GMT -6
If this has been discussed before I apologize I looked and couldn't find it. I've read other forums on this subject and it always starts a fight but I want to know what a hereford site thinks. Good or bad what do you all think turning the hereford black. I think it could really turn out but it's gonna take time. I thought it was more interesting before the black Angus started having so many genetic problems popping up everywhere. The color sells, but there is no true advantage to black color all other things being equal. I don't think it would be a good gamble to go into it. At one time there were individuals running the Black assn. with ties to the AHA and that always made me wonder if there would be a merger if it really took off. Who knows? I think we would be better off in the long run to keep cutting the white on the Herefords and sticking with reds.
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Post by George on Jul 15, 2013 11:30:10 GMT -6
If this has been discussed before I apologize I looked and couldn't find it. I've read other forums on this subject and it always starts a fight but I want to know what a hereford site thinks. Good or bad what do you all think turning the hereford black. I think it could really turn out but it's gonna take time. I have been watching the Black Herefords with interest for a while. There was a time that I would have bought a Black Hereford bull to clean up with - if I could have found one that met my standards AND been both homozygous black and homozygous polled. The drought here forced me to reduce my herd to the point where I'm currently no longer interested, but there is no doubt a "Polled Black Hereford" would have a marketing advantage here if the calves were sold through a local sale barn - about 5 cents a pound advantage for the polled and another 10 cents a pound for the black. EDIT: I should have added that the bull would have to be at least 75% Hereford blood, so his calves would qualify as Black Hereford "purebreds".
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Post by ellettherefords on Jul 15, 2013 11:57:00 GMT -6
There is a breeder out here that I like what he produces, check out jobulls.com. I bought one from him last year and I really like him.
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Post by Glenn on Jul 15, 2013 14:00:19 GMT -6
So now the Black Hereford "breed" has "All Black" bulls..........LMAO.............
My god we make this stuff harder than it should be. If black and polled is what someone wants there is a BREED for that!!!!!! They are called:ANGUS
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Post by Glenn on Jul 15, 2013 14:05:15 GMT -6
From the website mentioned and this quote: "We really like using all black bulls, because they produce a lot of pigment on Hereford cattle." The bottom line to me is as Harley stated: The Hereford Herd book is a CLOSED herd book. End of story. I am not against anyone breeding any type of cattle they want but call them something besides Herefords. Angfords, Hergus, Black Dominators, Beefaronis, Black Beauties, anything but Hereford.....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2013 15:22:17 GMT -6
From the website mentioned and this quote: "We really like using all black bulls, because they produce a lot of pigment on Hereford cattle." The bottom line to me is as Harley stated: The Hereford Herd book is a CLOSED herd book. End of story. I am not against anyone breeding any type of cattle they want but call them something besides Herefords. Angfords, Hergus, Black Dominators, Beefaronis, Black Beauties, anything but Hereford..... I talked by phone to someone at J&N several years ago and he said they were getting solid blacks and I said something like what's the point? He replied that they were black but acted just like Herefords in their disposition and foraging ability. Kind of made me stop and think at the time.
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Post by George on Jul 15, 2013 18:24:23 GMT -6
So now the Black Hereford "breed" has "All Black" bulls..........LMAO............. My god we make this stuff harder than it should be. If black and polled is what someone wants there is a BREED for that!!!!!! They are called:ANGUS The one bull that I liked from one of the past JN Ranch sales was a solid black bull - but appeared to be a pet from his behavior in the ring. Smithson from Missouri bought him - and paid the max that I would have bid for him. It doesn't look like Smithson ever used him much, as he hasn't ever posted anything about him on his website.
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Post by rockmillsherefords on Jul 15, 2013 19:16:31 GMT -6
I thought the idea was to make them 99% Hereford. They’ve diluted the Hereford genetics so much the white face not dominate gene anymore.
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Post by ellettherefords on Jul 15, 2013 20:27:46 GMT -6
This is probably a dumb question but what do you mean a closed herd book, I've heard that somewhere before but not sure what it is
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2013 20:45:12 GMT -6
I thought the idea was to make them 99% Hereford. They’ve diluted the Hereford genetics so much the white face not dominate gene anymore. That was the surprising thing about it, they claimed they kept them black whiteface to 7/8 Hereford and then mated the 7/8+ to each other and selected for less white. First they got brocklefaced and then solid black.
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Post by hoekland on Jul 15, 2013 23:12:23 GMT -6
This is probably a dumb question but what do you mean a closed herd book, I've heard that somewhere before but not sure what it is To be a hereford an animal must go back on both sides of the pedigree to herdbook volume 13 of 1886 WITHOUT any outside influence, otherwise its simply not a hereford. My problem with the black animals they call black herefords is that even if you paint them to look like herefords, they still don't look like herefords. I'm very involved in a large scale braford breeding operation where we make them from scratch and the degeneration as soon as you breed back is astounding, but its still a lot better when you breed back to the hereford than what it is if you breed back to the brahman. These black breeders must have started with really poor quality stock from the get go.
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 1, 2013 16:53:45 GMT -6
I own the all black bull shown above. He is not a purebred Black Hereford. He is 72% Hereford. I use him on my registered red Hereford cattle and he should throw white faces with a lot of pigment. Our buyers really like the pigment. A Black Hereford has to be 87.5% Hereford to be a purebred. We are pushing the percentages up to the 87.5%. It is the same concept used to turn other breeds black. I really like the Z037 Bull's thickness and he is very fertile. His father is an amazing growth bull, and we have used a maternal brother with great success. We don't like the all black face, but it works to produce a white faced calf with lots of pigment out of a red Hereford cow. Our family has had Herefords for a long time. My uncle and cousins are continuing to run the red Hereford side. I am turning my side black. It is what a lot of our customers want. If you are set on red Herefords then we will have 35 bulls for sale this coming spring and you can follow us at www.johansenherefords.com. My cousin bought two new herd bulls this year that are really nice (Holden and Cooper bulls). If you want black, then we will have 40 bulls for sale this spring and you can follow us at www.jobulls.com. (Our herd bulls are some of the best in the industry). The calves are raised by each other and have similar genetics. I am proud of both groups and will show you either. A lot of people question the genetics of the Black Hereford. We use embryo transplant heavily and A.I. This year we flushed a really nice Line 1 cow, and a cow that has Felton 517 breeding. We put the Felton 517 bred cow back to a Black Hereford out of RRH Mr Felt, so the resulting calves will have Felton 517 top and bottom. To get our percentages up we artificially inseminated some Black Hereford cows to UPS Domino 3027, Rib Eye, Huth Prospector, and Revolution. We also used two Black Hereford bulls (by A.I.) that are heavily Felton bred and both go back to Felton 517. We really like quality red Herefords and are developing the same quality Black Herefords. I am not saying my Black Herefords are Herefords. They are not. They are a new breed of Black Herefords. If you are a red Hereford lover, then come out and I will show you our family's red Herefords that my cousin is producing. They are nice.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 17:40:19 GMT -6
I own the all black bull shown above. He is not a purebred Black Hereford. He is 72% Hereford. I use him on my registered red Hereford cattle and he should throw white faces with a lot of pigment. Our buyers really like the pigment. A Black Hereford has to be 87.5% Hereford to be a purebred. We are pushing the percentages up to the 87.5%. It is the same concept used to turn other breeds black. I really like the Z037 Bull's thickness and he is very fertile. His father is an amazing growth bull, and we have used a maternal brother with great success. We don't like the all black face, but it works to produce a white faced calf with lots of pigment out of a red Hereford cow. Our family has had Herefords for a long time. My uncle and cousins are continuing to run the red Hereford side. I am turning my side black. It is what a lot of our customers want. If you are set on red Herefords then we will have 35 bulls for sale this coming spring and you can follow us at www.johansenherefords.com. My cousin bought two new herd bulls this year that are really nice (Holden and Cooper bulls). If you want black, then we will have 40 bulls for sale this spring and you can follow us at www.jobulls.com. (Our herd bulls are some of the best in the industry). The calves are raised by each other and have similar genetics. I am proud of both groups and will show you either. A lot of people question the genetics of the Black Hereford. We use embryo transplant heavily and A.I. This year we flushed a really nice Line 1 cow, and a cow that has Felton 517 breeding. We put the Felton 517 bred cow back to a Black Hereford out of RRH Mr Felt, so the resulting calves will have Felton 517 top and bottom. To get our percentages up we artificially inseminated some Black Hereford cows to UPS Domino 3027, Rib Eye, Huth Prospector, and Revolution. We also used two Black Hereford bulls (by A.I.) that are heavily Felton bred and both go back to Felton 517. We really like quality red Herefords and are developing the same quality Black Herefords. I am not saying my Black Herefords are Herefords. They are not. They are a new breed of Black Herefords. If you are a red Hereford lover, then come out and I will show you our family's red Herefords that my cousin is producing. They are nice. Are you able to get DNA testing for the Angus and Hereford genetic problems that the individual Angus or Hereford purebreds are able to test for? I know in the past many of the DNA tests have been breed specific.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 17:47:49 GMT -6
We put the Felton 517 bred cow back to a Black Hereford out of RRH Mr Felt, so the resulting calves will have Felton 517 top and bottom. To get our percentages up we artificially inseminated some Black Hereford cows to UPS Domino 3027, Rib Eye, Huth Prospector, and Revolution. Which Huth Prospecter bull did you use?
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 1, 2013 17:55:21 GMT -6
Yes, we test for the Angus and Hereford genetic defects. The Black Hereford Association is strict on the genetic defect issue. No Black Herefords can be registered if they have flagged pedigrees unless they are DNA tested. We do a lot of genetic testing of our Black Herefords. They can test for the defects, for polled, and for color. However, we are still working on accurate profiles. I have had numerous calls with Igenity and we just need more data and more tested calves.
We are transitioning from Line 1 to polled black. All of our herd bulls are homozygous black and two are homozygous polled.
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 1, 2013 18:06:49 GMT -6
A.I. sires this year.
Huth Prospector K085 MSU TCF Revolution 4R UPS Domino 3027 SHF Rib Eye M326 R117 Black Hereford Son of Schu-lar 3T of 206 5N JN Balder 9405 - Felton 517 bred Black Hereford JN Balder 0449 - father to the all black bull above.
We also used six Black Hereford bulls with good breeding naturally.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 18:31:16 GMT -6
Yes, we test for the Angus and Hereford genetic defects. The Black Hereford Association is strict on the genetic defect issue. No Black Herefords can be registered if they have flagged pedigrees unless they are DNA tested. We do a lot of genetic testing of our Black Herefords. They can test for the defects, for polled, and for color. However, we are still working on accurate profiles. I have had numerous calls with Igenity and we just need more data and more tested calves. We are transitioning from Line 1 to polled black. All of our herd bulls are homozygous black and two are homozygous polled. Why isn't your assn noting the tests on pedigrees?
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Post by Mickelson on Aug 1, 2013 18:35:47 GMT -6
Welcome aboard...I guess this is the end of me poking fun at Black Herefords. I was shocked to hear your customers desired BH's. I'm sure there are good ones in any breed. Good luck to you.
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 1, 2013 19:03:19 GMT -6
The Association is noting the tests on the pedigree. I have tested all of my herd bulls, but I got the certificates before the tests. I could send them back in and get them updated. That is a good point. I need to list that they are tested on the website. Thanks for the idea.
Thanks for not poking fun at the Black Herefords. Our Black Hereford bulls were all reserved at 10 months of age. It took us another four months to sell the red Herefords. The Black Herefords sell really fast. I will ramp up to over 75 Black Hereford bull calves next year, but will cull down below that some (we want to make sure that we only sell quality). It is hard to keep up with the demand on Black Herefords.
I have called all of my buyers of the last three years of selling the Black Herefords and they are all happy. Most of them have repeated (except for the small breeders). They will show back up when they need another one.
I still would like to stress that I like the red bulls also. The Holden bull my cousin bought this year went for $17,000, I think. He is amazing to look at. He also has great carcus qualities. I will try to get some of his lines over to the black side in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 19:13:07 GMT -6
The Association is noting the tests on the pedigree. I have tested all of my herd bulls, but I got the certificates before the tests. I could send them back in and get them updated. That is a good point. I need to list that they are tested on the website. Thanks for the idea. Thanks for not poking fun at the Black Herefords. Our Black Hereford bulls were all reserved at 10 months of age. It took us another four months to sell the red Herefords. The Black Herefords sell really fast. I will ramp up to over 75 Black Hereford bull calves next year, but will cull down below that some (we want to make sure that we only sell quality). It is hard to keep up with the demand on Black Herefords. i have called all of my buyers of the last three years of selling the Black Herefords and they are all happy. Most of them have repeated (except for the small breeders). They will show back up when they need another one. i still would like to stress that I like the red bulls also. The Holden bull my cousin bought this year went for $17,000, I think. He is amazing to look at. He also has great carcus qualities. I will try to get some of his lines over to the black side in the future. I do see some with AMF behind their names now that I look at more pedigrees. I think raising BH is more loyal than raising both Herefords and Angus, like we see so many operations doing now days. I can recommend a great slogan for your BH assn: "THE POWER OF BLACK, ONLY BETTER!"
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Post by Jobulls on Aug 1, 2013 19:15:57 GMT -6
I agree! I like Herefords. I like red Herefords. I just want to attack some of the Black Angus market. Give buyers the option of the Hereford advantages with the black hide.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 21:01:23 GMT -6
I agree! I like Herefords. I like red Herefords. I just want to attack some of the Black Angus market. Give buyers the option of the Hereford advantages with the black hide. this ain't pokin fun... its statements like the above that rub me wrong. say it right - give the buyers the option of 87.5% of the hereford advantage. in my mind as a rancher using them they are just flat out giving away percentages. i guess if i bred for everything a guy buying a bull wanted i'd be all over the board too. good luck - hope you put a dent in the angus market with more black.
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