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Post by Glenn on Feb 12, 2016 11:16:23 GMT -6
Go ahead. I was probably being too stubborn in the past with this. I just personally won't participate. My feeling is as long as the keep a separate herd book they are no different than the other composite breeds (Santa Getrudis, Beefmaster, Brangus, or even the European breeds for that matter as they got black from Angus as well). Sorry for my stubbornness in the past....
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Post by hoekland on Feb 12, 2016 11:32:43 GMT -6
Rather stick to your stubborn old self...
Call them anything you like, even white faced angus if you prefer, but leave the word hereford out.
The difference between herefords and the other breeds is we have a closed herdbook since 1886. Until that changes, and I doubt it will be anytime soon, they can't have the word hereford in their name.
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Post by stoney on Feb 12, 2016 13:22:00 GMT -6
I agree with you hoekland. Herefords are NOT black!!!
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Post by btlrupert on Feb 12, 2016 13:30:24 GMT -6
Don't mean to offend but they are Black Baldies. Not black Herefords!!!!!!! Black gene does not exist in the Hereford breed.
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Post by fpherf on Feb 12, 2016 13:43:47 GMT -6
I understand the mark "Hereford" is probably not entitled to trademark protection. What I don't understand, is how folks advertising their cattle as "Black Herefords" are not violating the (U.S.) Federal truth-in-advertising statutes. If folks selling black baldies as breeding stock want to refer to their cattle as baldies, angford, or heregus, then the end user is not probably going to be confused. But it appears to me that the utilization of the phrase "Black Herefords" is intended to lead the end consumer to believe the cattle are purebred Herefords, with a black gene. If the argument is. . . so what, the end consumer is not damaged, then we need to further discuss the concept of hybrid vigor.
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Post by btlrupert on Feb 12, 2016 13:45:25 GMT -6
Hybrid vigor is not transferable to the next generation.
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Post by Jobulls on Feb 12, 2016 16:58:05 GMT -6
My family has raised Herefords my entire life. I understand that the Hereford registry is "supposed" to be closed, and I agree that it should remain closed. As I stated in the other thread, the Brafords have their own registry. They are a mix of Brahman and Hereford cattle. The registry is actually maintained by the AHA. Although these are a crossbreed, the Hereford breeders accept them. It allows the marketing of Herefords to a group that otherwise would not buy Hereford influenced cattle.
The American Black Hereford Association is no different. The registry should never be included in the AHA registry. However, the AHA has commented that maintaining the Braford database is a a source of revenue with very little additional expenses. The Black Hereford registry could be another business line for the AHA. However, it should remain separate (this is not the polled/horned combination scenario).
I believe that the Black Hereford compliments the AHA well. Many Black Hereford breeders are purchasing AHA cows or using AHA bulls. The Black Hereford breeders push Hereford influence to those that would not otherwise buy Hereford cattle because of the color. This is similar to the Braford. Today I had a buyer call, he likes Herefords but must have black hides, so I showed him my Black Herefords. 30 minutes later I had a buyer call and he was partial to red cattle, so I referred him to my family that is still producing AHA bulls.
The participants on Hereford Talk need to look at the Black Hereford not as a potential pollution of the pure Hereford Herdbook, but as a way to expand the marketing base of Hereford cattle, just like the Braford expands the base in the South.
I agree with Glen that the discussion on Hereford Talk should avoid Black Herefords. The purpose of the site is to discuss Herefords. I just would ask the participants to look at Black Herefords as an opportunity, not a threat. There are a lot of Hereford breeders that are providing genetics to Black Hereford breeders. Don't worry, the AHA registry is safe from black genetics.
As to the other two comments above, I discussed the trademark issue in detail with a law firm. The term "Hereford", or even "Black Hereford" is to generic to trademark. As to heterosis, a 100% AHA bull and a 99% ABHA bull are going to provide very similar heterosis. Black Herefords are not considered purebred in the ABHA until the animal is above 87.5%. At the higher percentages the heterosis will be very similar.
The last issue is quality. The Black Hereford quality will increase with the quality increases in the AHA, because the Black Hereford breeders are using AHA genetics.
Back to discussing Herefords.
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Post by btlrupert on Feb 13, 2016 17:22:58 GMT -6
Not correct! Heterosis is not genetically transferable at the level you propose.
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Post by mehf on Feb 13, 2016 17:34:52 GMT -6
As I stated in a previous thread, IMO, black herefords = fraud for sure !! They wanted black hides to get into the certified black-critter beef product. Well they should change the name to "white-faced black-critter". I only wish the AHA would initiate legal and other actions in the appropriate jurisdiction(s) with the objective to get our name (ie "Hereford") removed.
Further, I watched a small amount of the j & l sale today and I must say their bulls looked a great deal like Holstein bulls. Certainly not beef cattle bulls and especially not like Hereford bulls. |
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Post by rvf1986 on Feb 13, 2016 17:59:42 GMT -6
If its such a great deal for the breed,then why hasn't the Angus opened their doors to The black baldy Assc. Our assc has enough trouble promoting real Hereford cattle as it is! I'm a firm believer that we have enough obstacles ahead of us without adding more!
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Post by Jobulls on Feb 15, 2016 8:47:00 GMT -6
Not correct! Heterosis is not genetically transferable at the level you propose. I know Glen wants to get off this subject, but one note of clarification. I emailed a professor at Texas A&M that specializes in cattle genetics about this thread. Here is his response. "We say that expression of heterosis is proportional to breed heterozygosity, that is, the proportion of genes in an animal that have one allele of origin from one breed and the other from the other breed. E.g., in a first cross all genes meet this criterion and expression of heterosis is 100%. in crosses of F1's however, we expect that to halve. As you increase the proportion of Hereford alleles in your cattle, then their calves will express more heterosis when crossed with Angus. Any Angus genes in your cattle will not contribute to heterosis in calves produced when crossed with Angus." As the Black Hereford breed gets higher and higher percentage Hereford, the heterozygosity will increase and the heterosis produced when crossed on Angus will get similar to the heterosis produced when a Hereford is crossed on Angus. |
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Post by Carlos (frmaiz) on Feb 15, 2016 9:41:52 GMT -6
Not correct! Heterosis is not genetically transferable at the level you propose. I know Glen wants to get off this subject, but one note of clarification. I emailed a professor at Texas A&M that specializes in cattle genetics about this thread. Here is his response. " We say that expression of heterosis is proportional to breed heterozygosity, that is, the proportion of genes in an animal that have one allele of origin from one breed and the other from the other breed. E.g., in a first cross all genes meet this criterion and expression of heterosis is 100%. in crosses of F1's however, we expect that to halve.As you increase the proportion of Hereford alleles in your cattle, then their calves will express more heterosis when crossed with Angus. Any Angus genes in your cattle will not contribute to heterosis in calves produced when crossed with Angus." As the Black Hereford breed gets higher and higher percentage Hereford, the heterozygosity will increase and the heterosis produced when crossed on Angus will get similar to the heterosis produced when a Hereford is crossed on Angus. Not that simple. I am a graduate of Texas A&M in Plant Breeding, and have been breeding corn for almost 50 years now. And most of my work is crossing to races of corn, american dents x local flints in order to get yield and hard kernels. Similar to crossing two breeds of cattle. Now I have inbreds that if you look at the pedigree are around 90% dent with relative hard kernels and similar phenotypically to the original dent parent. However when crossed to make hybrids they don´t give the heterosis that you would expect. If this happens with maize where the number of individuals that you can select per generation is enormous and there are two generations per year, how many years will it take with cattle? 100-200? In addition, genes do not segregate freely since there is linkage and some linkages are extremely difficult to break and may be impossible. |
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Post by Jobulls on Feb 15, 2016 10:43:59 GMT -6
I know Glen wants to get off this subject, but one note of clarification. I emailed a professor at Texas A&M that specializes in cattle genetics about this thread. Here is his response. " We say that expression of heterosis is proportional to breed heterozygosity, that is, the proportion of genes in an animal that have one allele of origin from one breed and the other from the other breed. E.g., in a first cross all genes meet this criterion and expression of heterosis is 100%. in crosses of F1's however, we expect that to halve.As you increase the proportion of Hereford alleles in your cattle, then their calves will express more heterosis when crossed with Angus. Any Angus genes in your cattle will not contribute to heterosis in calves produced when crossed with Angus." As the Black Hereford breed gets higher and higher percentage Hereford, the heterozygosity will increase and the heterosis produced when crossed on Angus will get similar to the heterosis produced when a Hereford is crossed on Angus. Not that simple. I am a graduate of Texas A&M in Plant Breeding, and have been breeding corn for almost 50 years now. And most of my work is crossing to races of corn, american dents x local flints in order to get yield and hard kernels. Similar to crossing two breeds of cattle. Now I have inbreds that if you look at the pedigree are around 90% dent with relative hard kernels and similar phenotypically to the original dent parent. However when crossed to make hybrids they don´t give the heterosis that you would expect. If this happens with maize where the number of individuals that you can select per generation is enormous and there are two generations per year, how many years will it take with cattle? 100-200? In addition, genes do not segregate freely since there is linkage and some linkages are extremely difficult to break and may be impossible. You are right that it is not that simple, but in general it works as the professor stated. It is further confused by the fact that the Angus and Hereford breeds are not that different (both English breeds). I would appreciate any studies that you know of that describe what you are talking about, if this has been documented. Especially if those studies are in animals. |
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Post by btlrupert on Feb 22, 2016 12:43:27 GMT -6
Been away for a while. My comment that heterosis is not genetically transferable refers to the first initial cross or first filial generation. You can continue to select within that crossbred population to develop a "purebred" and then establish a certain level of performance after many generations of selection. Keep in mind however the primary criteria initially is the color of the hide. Seen to many continental breeds go down this road and produced a lot of inferior "black purebreds". Many use the heterozygotic response to mask inferior production of the initial purebred animal. Note definition of heterosis: Heterosis or hybrid vigor refers to the superiority in performance of the crossbred animal compared to the average of the straightbred parents. Heterosis may be calculated using the formula: % Heterosis = [(crossbred average - straightbred
average) ÷ straightbred average] x 100 For example, if the average weaning weight of the straightbred calves was 470 pounds for Breed A and 530 pounds for Breed B, the average of the straightbred parents would be 500 pounds. If Breed A and Breed B were crossed and the resulting calves had an average weaning weight of 520 pounds, heterosis would be calculated as: [(520 - 500) ÷ 500] x 100 = 4 % This 4% increase, or 20 pounds in this example, is defined as heterosis or hybrid vigor. - See more at: www.americancattlemen.com/articles/crossbreeding-beef-cattle#sthash.ANoviujQ.dpuf |
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Post by Jobulls on Feb 22, 2016 14:55:21 GMT -6
hereford.org/static/files/newsletters/thewhiteface0209_screen.pdfdigitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&context=rangebeefcowsymp"Unfortunately there exists a popular misconception that heterosis exists only in the first generation of crossbreds (F1). Heterosis is retained in the breeding of crossbred animals and is related to the probability of alleles from different parental lines joining together. For instance, if two F1 animals are mated, heterosis in the corresponding offspring is called retained heterosis and is equal to the following: Heterosis retained = 1- [(PS1PD1) + .... + [(PSnPDn)] Where PS1 is the proportion of the sire from breed 1 and PD1 is the proportion of the time from breed 1 and n is equal to the total number of breed involved."
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Post by elkwc on Feb 25, 2016 21:22:55 GMT -6
Don't mean to offend but they are Black Baldies. Not black Herefords!!!!!!! Black gene does not exist in the Hereford breed. The Simmy gene doesn't exist in a true Hereford either. But it does in the 23D's and the same breeders that say Black Herefords and Hereford influenced cattle aren't Herefords say me and others should forget about 23D and the other impure cattle just because they have papers. They aren't any purer than a Black Hereford or Hereford influenced cattle. |
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Post by fpherf on Apr 2, 2016 9:08:34 GMT -6
Well, it's happened: Black Herefords have a new competitor; white-faced angus. If you don't believe me, GOOGLE: Comedian Jon Stewart saves angus bull. The animal depicted on CNN and FOX appears to have a white face. Clearly an effort by the AWFAA to get free advertising. Wonder who will have the first production sale.
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Post by shumakerherefords on Apr 2, 2016 9:43:11 GMT -6
"After spending the weekend at the Stewart family farm, Frank will be transported to Cornell University Hospital for Animals. His routine checkup will end in castration, according to Moskovitz. The bull will become a steer."
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klee
Fresh Calf
Posts: 65 
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Post by klee on Apr 2, 2016 18:59:46 GMT -6
Why is Black Herefords not anything more than a composite? Professors are the people that came up with EPDs and how accurate are they? Amazing what grant money can be used to create or conduct studies on at our Universites.
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