talin
Yearling
Posts: 201
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Post by talin on Oct 2, 2015 5:20:23 GMT -6
I have been considering getting a stock dog to help move cattle through the chutes and gather.
The healers appear to do the chute work well and the border collies the gathering bring them to you work
Is there a breed or type that does both decently?
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Post by lffarm on Oct 2, 2015 7:10:36 GMT -6
I like Australian shepherd. they will do both but like any thing else it depends on the blood in the dog. Some lines work differently. Don't buy a show line!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2015 8:32:07 GMT -6
We have had border collies in the past, never really trained them but there is definitely some natural herding instincts in them if you want to work with them and some of the ones we had were pretty helpful even without being trained. Very well mannered and smart dogs.
The last Australian shepherd we had we put down because he started to become too aggressive and he was very lucky that we didn't put a bullet in him before we had the vet put him down. He bit my brother in the eyelid which resulted in an emergency room visit and surgery to re-attach his eyelid and put a catheter in for a year to help repair his tear duct. Dog was completely unprovoked, I was leading my show heifer around the barn lot one evening and my brother was following behind her when the dog just jumped up and bit him. Never really thought he'd do something like that but we should have seen the signs as he got older the dog had started to become more aggressive around people in a bad way and have heard of others that had similar experiences so that ruled out ever getting another one of his breed. We felt very fortunate he didn't hurt my brother more than he did as any bite near the eye is a pretty scary thing.
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Post by picketwire on Oct 2, 2015 9:55:19 GMT -6
A good stock dog can be helpful, a great stock dog is worth 3 humans, a bad stock dog leads to bad language, poor attitude and early hair loss! The name of the game is discipline. Border collies are great, but they need to be busy ALL THE TIME or they tend to get in trouble when they go looking for work, and they will go looking!! Aussie shepherds are solid and great for watchdog work as well, but again need to be well disciplined to control the aggression. Catahoula are fun to watch with wild, onery, hard to handle cattle but are a wreck around herefords.
Just my limited past experience with stock dogs. For what it's worth, only dog around here now is a great hunting dog, and she is only a hunting dog.
Oh, and only time I have ever been bitten by any dog, it was by an aussie 'protecting' their house.
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Post by jayh on Oct 2, 2015 12:05:06 GMT -6
A good stock dog can be helpful, a great stock dog is worth 3 humans, a bad stock dog leads to bad language, poor attitude and early hair loss! The name of the game is discipline. Border collies are great, but they need to be busy ALL THE TIME or they tend to get in trouble when they go looking for work, and they will go looking!! Aussie shepherds are solid and great for watchdog work as well, but again need to be well disciplined to control the aggression. Catahoula are fun to watch with wild, onery, hard to handle cattle but are a wreck around herefords.Just my limited past experience with stock dogs. For what it's worth, only dog around here now is a great hunting dog, and she is only a hunting dog. Oh, and only time I have ever been bitten by any dog, it was by an aussie 'protecting' their house. I have t disagree on the houla. I owned one and she went everywhere with me. I could tell her to stand in the gate and she wouldn't let anything through, I could tell her to round them up and she would help me get them in. she was a very smart dog and was never trained just lived with me. I have tried twice to replace her and twice I have been disappointed. I am no longer looking for a replacement as I have told myself that I can never truly replace her. she was by far the best dog I have ever had. Hell of a coon dog to. But then again I took her with me everywhere. Not many people know what a Catahoula is. Nice to see someone that does. Brought back real good memories.
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Post by picketwire on Oct 2, 2015 12:19:53 GMT -6
Exactly, the difference between a good dog and a great one makes for all the difference. Seen good ones, great ones and bad ones of all breeds. Watching the Catahoula help with the rangy, high strung cattle from across the fence in the mountains years ago was a pleasure to watch them work, but a wreck when they tried to help with our herefords who knew when to line out for a long move. Our cows had never been moved in a tight bunch and those dogs had probably never seen cows line out and know where to go.
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Post by picketwire on Oct 2, 2015 12:22:08 GMT -6
A truly great dog is like a truly great horse, you are lucky to know one maybe two in a lifetime.
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Post by candymeadowfarms on Oct 2, 2015 21:53:23 GMT -6
We've had several cowdogs here over the years. Only 2 really good ones. One was a red border collie and the other a red heeler. We've had a few other border collies red/white and black/white not worth a cuss. One Australian Shepard that was a good pet... ended up aggressive towards other dogs late in her life. Handful of blue heelers none that turned out. The key is keeping them with you. No matter were you go they must be there! Anyone had any experience with hanging tree cow dogs? Had a chocolate lab that was a waterfowl/dove hunting machine. He was trained to rescue people from drowning. Would help get cattle in. Point birds and tree squirrels. He went everywhere I ever went. Def my once in a lifetime dog!
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Post by elkwc on Oct 2, 2015 22:04:15 GMT -6
We've had several cowdogs here over the years. Only 2 really good ones. One was a red border collie and the other a red heeler. We've had a few other border collies red/white and black/white not worth a cuss. One Australian Shepard that was a good pet... ended up aggressive towards other dogs late in her life. Handful of blue heelers none that turned out. The key is keeping them with you. No matter were you go they must be there! Anyone had any experience with hanging tree cow dogs? Had a chocolate lab that was a waterfowl/dove hunting machine. He was trained to rescue people from drowning. Would help get cattle in. Point birds and tree squirrels. He went everywhere I ever went. Def my once in a lifetime dog! Will send you a message with my thoughts about cowdogs including Hanging Tree dogs. Jay
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Post by mehf on Oct 3, 2015 9:03:17 GMT -6
Hey candymeadowfarm & elkwc, You both (and, perhaps many others as well ...) will get a good laugh. But, I never heard of a "Hanging Tree dog"; what are they?
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Post by lffarm on Oct 3, 2015 10:17:48 GMT -6
Hey candymeadowfarm & elkwc, You both (and, perhaps many others as well ...) will get a good laugh. But, I never heard of a "Hanging Tree dog"; what are they? THE HISTORY OF THE HANGIN' TREE COWDOG. March 24-25-26, 2011 clinic with Charlie Trayer in Seymour, Texas. Call 580.927.5608 for more information. These slick or short-haired cowdogs were originally bred by using a cross of approximately 1/8 Catahoula Leopard (for their slick coat and their ability to trail, find, and hold up cattle), 1/4 Australian Shepherd (Hangin’ Tree Black Bear, who won both the Idaho and Montana Stockdog Championships and sold for $20,000.00, was the only Australian Shepherd used, because of his courage and ability to handle any kind of cattle), 1/4 Kelpie (for their endurance, short hair, and herding instinct), and 3/8 to ½ cattle-bred Border Collie (for their ease of training and handling, and their intense herding desire.) This has resulted in a tough cowdog that can easily be taught to trail and find cattle. Choc and Gary Ericsson originated the breed to be the cowboy's ultimate dog. It was named after the family brand--Hangin' Tree. The breed was designed for endurance, as many cowboys need a dog that can go all day and withstand harsh conditions...and sometimes even harsh treatment. Of utmost importance was the dog's ability to hit both heads and heels of cattle. The foundation stock that was selected for the original registry were intelligent, courageous, hardworking and loyal. These slick haired dogs don't collect burrs or stickers and withstand heat well. In winter, they develop a thick undercoat in colder climates.
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Post by mehf on Oct 3, 2015 11:32:02 GMT -6
Hey candymeadowfarm & elkwc, You both (and, perhaps many others as well ...) will get a good laugh. But, I never heard of a "Hanging Tree dog"; what are they? THE HISTORY OF THE HANGIN' TREE COWDOG. March 24-25-26, 2011 clinic with Charlie Trayer in Seymour, Texas. Call 580.927.5608 for more information. These slick or short-haired cowdogs were originally bred by using a cross of approximately 1/8 Catahoula Leopard (for their slick coat and their ability to trail, find, and hold up cattle), 1/4 Australian Shepherd (Hangin’ Tree Black Bear, who won both the Idaho and Montana Stockdog Championships and sold for $20,000.00, was the only Australian Shepherd used, because of his courage and ability to handle any kind of cattle), 1/4 Kelpie (for their endurance, short hair, and herding instinct), and 3/8 to ½ cattle-bred Border Collie (for their ease of training and handling, and their intense herding desire.) This has resulted in a tough cowdog that can easily be taught to trail and find cattle. Choc and Gary Ericsson originated the breed to be the cowboy's ultimate dog. It was named after the family brand--Hangin' Tree. The breed was designed for endurance, as many cowboys need a dog that can go all day and withstand harsh conditions...and sometimes even harsh treatment. Of utmost importance was the dog's ability to hit both heads and heels of cattle. The foundation stock that was selected for the original registry were intelligent, courageous, hardworking and loyal. These slick haired dogs don't collect burrs or stickers and withstand heat well. In winter, they develop a thick undercoat in colder climates. Thanks, lffarm !!
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Post by elkwc on Oct 3, 2015 12:57:58 GMT -6
Hey candymeadowfarm & elkwc, You both (and, perhaps many others as well ...) will get a good laugh. But, I never heard of a "Hanging Tree dog"; what are they? . Not at all. In my opinion they equal the Pharo cattle of the cattle world. Over the last 25 years there have been many in this area use them and not a one has them today that I know of. I looked at the membership list and only saw a few names I knew . Good salesmanship does wonders. Know there was a big flap last year and the president resigned. Most trainers I've talked to say they are very inconsistent.
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Post by picketwire on Oct 3, 2015 18:03:47 GMT -6
Who wants to take a stab why they are inconsistent?
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Post by mhemry on Oct 3, 2015 20:33:14 GMT -6
Called the guy that started the hanging tree cattle dog and told him I was surprised that he didn't have any heeler blood in his dogs. He said that the only heelers he ever had he " crossed up" with a shotgun!
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Post by larso on Oct 4, 2015 3:33:03 GMT -6
My guess George is if they have a bit of everything in them, that's exactly what you get, a mongrel. The Kelpie breeders ( Australian sheep dog ) probably Line breed better than anyone.
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Post by elkwc on Oct 4, 2015 9:18:54 GMT -6
Called the guy that started the hanging tree cattle dog and told him I was surprised that he didn't have any heeler blood in his dogs. He said that the only heelers he ever had he " crossed up" with a shotgun! You sure enough talked to the Gary I met once and watched his dogs work at a cow dog trials. Not the best sportsman in my opinion when his dogs get out classed. The best dogs that worked that day were by two MO breeders/trainers. Tjey both had Border collies. Ben Means and LR Alexander. LR had a female that was the best cowdog I ever saw work and I've been around a few good ones.
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Post by hoekland on Oct 4, 2015 12:19:33 GMT -6
It seems that heelers are either great or a complete disaster.
The last 10 or so years i see more and more border collies that are either very nippy or downright aggressive. Anyone else noticing this? I was brought up with them and we never had an agressive one. Car chasers every single one of them, but not agressive or nippy, best children's dog you could hope for
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Post by picketwire on Oct 4, 2015 12:39:48 GMT -6
I have seen aggressive border collies and even tempered ones as well. I just have never seen a border collie blow up with aggression, but i have seen plenty of them quick to get in the fray protecting someone. As far as nippy, yeah they have always been that way in my mind.
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talin
Yearling
Posts: 201
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Post by talin on Oct 4, 2015 17:16:53 GMT -6
Larso
Interesting I am starting to narrow down to a Kelpie as a dog that can do both and more consistently than the other breeds. BC seem to be hit or miss with cattle and the heelers can care less about running out and fetching.
Have you had any experience with Kelpies?
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Post by mhemry on Oct 4, 2015 19:07:37 GMT -6
I bought a border collie off of Jack Knox. Not too far from Tim Bernt's area of the country. Jack is from Scotland and is a border collie breeder. He is a dog "handler" as opposed to a trainer. Best I've ever seen. Both he and his wife have been very successful in competitions.
Asked him when I went to look at his dogs "can you split the herd in half?" He said "I can put them in your car, all you have to do is open the door!"
Dog i got off of him was the most timid animal I've ever owned. I can tell you after owning several BC's, you can be training them and not even know it. That usually results in problems!
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talin
Yearling
Posts: 201
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Post by talin on Oct 4, 2015 20:04:12 GMT -6
Interesting I have a neighbor who has BC's for sheep but when you walk up to them they cower or hide just doesn't seem right. I have always had German Shephards looked into them but they were bred to keep the sheep in a boundary or on a road not much use in current applications. I am hoping to watch the cow dog trials at Denver maybe get a better idea of the more cowy BC's
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Post by larso on Oct 5, 2015 4:13:36 GMT -6
Larso Interesting I am starting to narrow down to a Kelpie as a dog that can do both and more consistently than the other breeds. BC seem to be hit or miss with cattle and the heelers can care less about running out and fetching. Have you had any experience with Kelpies? I have, mostly black and tan, although the red and tan are just as good. They are a lot more suited to Australian conditions than the BC, can handle the heat a lot better. Originally they were bred for sheep work but over the years a line was developed for cattle and there are some excellent dogs used for that purpose. They are a great casting dog where as the Blue Heeler(cattle dog) really was never bred to cast, hence the name, he was bred to push and bring up the stragglers and block them if needed a very forceful dog. They will bite the cow on the foot if they consider it's not moving fast enough, I had one, when he got sick of biting the feet he would start swinging off their tales, wish I still had him sometimes especially when I'm moving a paddock full of fighting bulls.
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Post by elkwc on Oct 5, 2015 4:53:19 GMT -6
Larso Interesting I am starting to narrow down to a Kelpie as a dog that can do both and more consistently than the other breeds. BC seem to be hit or miss with cattle and the heelers can care less about running out and fetching. Have you had any experience with Kelpies? I have, mostly black and tan, although the red and tan are just as good. They are a lot more suited to Australian conditions than the BC, can handle the heat a lot better. Originally they were bred for sheep work but over the years a line was developed for cattle and there are some excellent dogs used for that purpose. They are a great casting dog where as the Blue Heeler(cattle dog) really was never bred to cast, hence the name, he was bred to push and bring up the stragglers and block them if needed a very forceful dog. They will bite the cow on the foot if they consider it's not moving fast enough, I had one, when he got sick of biting the feet he would start swinging off their tales, wish I still had him sometimes especially when I'm moving a paddock full of fighting bulls. Larso I have seen a few good Kelpie's and Kelpie crosses here. There aren't many. When selecting breeds in my opinion a person needs to decide what he wants a dog for. Whether to gather or push or both. I've seen heelers that were very good at loading cattle in traiers, trucks and alleys and chutes. I know a man who processes his cattle by himself. His heelers are better than a man or hot shot for moving them in the alley. Some can be hard headed. But for doing both they aren't the best choice. When selecting a BC for cattle work you need to learn the bloodlines or use one of the trainers who use their dogs for actual cattle work. I like to watch the pasture trials as I can learn more about a dog and how they will react in that type of environment. But I usually go to a person who uses their dogs on a daily basis for what I'm going to want to do. I know for certain then that they will likely do what I want. I would do the same regardless of what breed I was looking at.
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Post by oldduffer on Oct 5, 2015 8:19:39 GMT -6
Larso: ".......if they have a bit of everything in them, that is exactly what you get, a MONGREL." Your statement made me think of a lot of the black hided cow herds and feeder cattle that I have seen.
"Extremism to protect liberty is no vice!"
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