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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 8:16:33 GMT -6
Finally breaking my 2 weeks of silence because I can't stand to sit here and be quiet about what I have been reading here lately any longer. Before people here get too caught up being critical of our own breed and breeders like I've seen way too much of here lately (and quite honestly we should be embarrassed by some of it) here is what we are up against as a breed just to put into perspective some of the bad experiences and stereotypes we still have yet to completely get past with commercial breeders: talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=579513&posts=7&start=1
Look, I realize there are guys here passionate about the Hereford breed and have their thoughts on things that need improvement and that is not a bad thing, but if an outsider was reading some of the things being said here it may look somewhat egotistic and elitist to them. That link I shared is a perfect example of regardless how much we bitch and moan about certain things we still haven't gotten completely past some issues that have haunted the breed for a long time and are still in the minds of commercial breeders when they think of Herefords.
I'm sure what I just said is going to bring some mixed reactions here but that is just my opinion and everyone is entitled to one regardless if you agree with it or not. Just keep in mind some of the comments made in that link before attacking someone's cattle because we aren't immune to criticism for flaws as a breed in whole. I would hope people here could be bigger people than to continuously trash on our own breed and some of it's breeders in the manner that has been lately. We wonder why so many people "lurk" here without contributing to the message boards, I have a good feeling some of them probably feel intimidated they'll just be ripped on too if they start to contribute, especially those who are just getting their feet wet in the breed and are looking for ways to improve and grow their herd. No one here raises perfect cattle so be careful when throwing your stones
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Post by Glenn on Sept 15, 2015 8:45:09 GMT -6
I think most people here are critical because of stuff like you posted. Some people think just breeding Herefords is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Most of these new breeders that you are worried about offending are breeding mostly crap cattle that have no business being seedstock. You yourself got called out on another board for being a little critical of subpar animals.
I'm not so put out with the "newbies" as I am with the "well established" folks that seem to take pride in taking these folks to the CLEANERS. Selling them some big eared, prolapsing, no working, crap cattle for prices that'd make me blush if I ever tried asking those prices for cattle.
You may not agree and I have pretty much steered clear of naming names but there are some "big time" breeders that should be ashamed of themselves.
You well know (being on Facebook) that the crappy Herefords outnumber the good Herefords by a big margin and until we get to looking better on that ratio, we aren't really going anywhere as a breed.
Off my soapbox, too.......LOL
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 9:28:33 GMT -6
I know Glenn, but I guess I've changed perspective some in how I treat others since being called out in that instance too. Is "taking these folks to the cleaners" the right way to approach it? I'm not saying to accept or say those flaws are OK but mostly likely everyone was a newbie at some point and I would bet the cattle we all raise now are far better than what we started with so is trashing on someone that just got started and doesn't know any better really the way to get people interested in the breed? Also trashing big operations that you may feel have flawed cattle, some of those guys are selling their cattle for some damn good prices these days so not everyone must feel the same way about them. I think a lot of us would love to be able to sell our cattle for the prices some of those guys get and they didn't get the reputations and repeat business they have by telling everyone else their cattle sucks or raising cattle that were not productive for their customers.
There is obviously some variation in the type of Herefords being raised, but ultimately I don't think that the negative thinking and bashing is a productive way to improve the breed and also as a potential customer I would have some concerns with who I was doing business with if all they had to say about other people is in a negative tone. Lot of bitching goes on about the AHA here too, if people don't like the AHA then you can always just choose to not register your cattle and run a commercial operation but we all know that registered cattle is going to add more value than keeping them as commercials.
I'm not trying to go after anyone here, as a mostly positive thinking person the amount of negativity and lack of respect sometimes shown here to others, especially ones not here to defend themselves can really grow old. It's 1 reason I kept quiet the past 2 weeks and probably will more going forward because I do not want to participate in that kind of thinking
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Post by jayh on Sept 15, 2015 11:45:26 GMT -6
So HOW DO YOU CHANGE those cattlemans minds? Hard to when they get burned by it so many times. Its the reason there are so many breeds some people have luck with some and some don't.
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Post by George on Sept 15, 2015 12:54:13 GMT -6
From the thread referenced in the first post on this thread:
Problem eyes: I definitely had problems with eyes in the distant past, in our Anxiety 4th cattle, but I have had very few problems since I got back into breeding Herefords in 2002.
Prolapses: I've only seen one in 55 years.
Poor milk: I have definitely had more problems with poor udder structure and large teats than lack of milk. I had come to think that my cattle have TOO much milk, but a well-known breeder that I respect says that we still have a problem with milk quantity. Paraphrasing what he said: "When you start seeing the breeders use Herefords for recips, rather than a high percentage of them being black-hided, then you will know that Herefords are finally at a par with other breeds in milking ability."
Now, as far as any "trash talking" here, I've about had my fill of political correctness - everywhere! There is nothing wrong with honest opinion...and I don't think this message board is a place that should JUST be reserved for the "cheerleaders" of the breed to post. If it ever becomes that way, it will become useless as a medium - and probably will die from lack of interest and participation.
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Post by avignon on Sept 15, 2015 13:33:52 GMT -6
I think we should all remember that people like to back winners. If we all take on a good attitude & positivity about our breed then I think it would be a pleasure to have a commercial man or new breeder come across this forum. When someone reads this & thinks 'that's the guys I want to associate with', well we're a lot closer to having a new Hereford breeder & stronger industry. Everyone has their thoughts on certain cattle & what they prefer but it's our attitude & the way that we conduct ourselves that will help drive the Hereford breed forward.
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 15, 2015 13:51:50 GMT -6
I'm not trying to go after anyone here, as a mostly positive thinking person the amount of negativity and lack of respect sometimes shown here to others, especially ones not here to defend themselves can really grow old. It's 1 reason I kept quiet the past 2 weeks and probably will more going forward because I do not want to participate in that kind of thinking Anything I post I do so with the understanding that Glenn does not restrict people from responding to any post and that anyone affected by a post is aware of Hereford Talk. I wish more influential breeders would join and contribute to this board and I try to encourage the Hereford breeders I interact with to join.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 13:57:34 GMT -6
George, I see nothing wrong with an honest opinion and I do believe that there should be a good mix of constructive criticism along with some positive thinking too and not too heavy with either of those. Just fed up with the manner/ways some have chosen to go about with discussing these things and the people they are throwing under the bus in the process and I'll just leave it at that because I don't want to use specific examples here and make it look like it's personal because it's not and that is not how I prefer to handle things either. I would bet some of the things said or people being mocked on here a lot would probably never say it directly to those people in a face to face meeting. The thing that most concerns me is how it appears to outsiders looking in when they read this stuff - not only within our breed but with commercial breeders looking at using Herefords because if we can't even look at some of the positives without getting too caught up in all the negatives with the cattle we are producing and marketing then why in the hell would those people feel good about using a Hereford too?
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Post by jayh on Sept 15, 2015 19:39:49 GMT -6
From the thread referenced in the first post on this thread: Problem eyes: I definitely had problems with eyes in the distant past, in our Anxiety 4th cattle, but I have had very few problems since I got back into breeding Herefords in 2002. Prolapses: I've only seen one in 55 years.Poor milk: I have definitely had more problems with poor udder structure and large teats than lack of milk. I had come to think that my cattle have TOO much milk, but a well-known breeder that I respect says that we still have a problem with milk quantity. Paraphrasing what he said: "When you start seeing the breeders use Herefords for recips, rather than a high percentage of them being black-hided, then you will know that Herefords are finally at a par with other breeds in milking ability." Now, as far as any "trash talking" here, I've about had my fill of political correctness - everywhere! There is nothing wrong with honest opinion...and I don't think this message board is a place that should JUST be reserved for the "cheerleaders" of the breed to post. If it ever becomes that way, it will become useless as a medium - and probably will die from lack of interest and participation. Really. I got good at putting them back in in the 80's. We saved a bunch of heifers from a particular bull and we had a bunch prolapse. Vet showed me how to do it. I was 14 and my dad was always gone thru week with work so I got the job. Kept lots of sugar around then. I can say I have some really poor milkers recently so I believe that one to. as for eyes. just normal trouble. Black cows have trouble to. don't let anyone fool you.
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Post by timbernt on Sept 15, 2015 19:49:23 GMT -6
I would suppose I should feel guilty of denigrating the status of the Hereford breed and the AHA. I do not. I have benefitted greatly from this forum. When I mentioned my intent to use Kairuru Aberdeen as the basis of a polled program, Larso cautioned me that they would likely be hard keepers. I went out to the pasture and looked at those I had with new eyes; decided Larso was right and the last one went to kill. Have 50 straws of semen to toss. When I was interested in 0145X at Lowell Fishers sale I talked with Glenn and Ken Coleman, they educated me on L1 cattle. I bought the semen interest and in fact had a calf born from 0145X this morning. In January Randy posted a comment about a Mark Donald calf for sale at BB. I bid on the calf; did not get him; bought a semen interest the next week. In July I went to BB and bought the calf's mother, grandmother, and a semen interest in the sire. My point is that this forum has yielded tangible benefits to me personally. It is not in my opinion a forum to gain market share. I continually criticize the state of the breed and the AHA leadership on here because there is no correlation with the commercial cattle industry. If SPH can take the latest issue of the Hereford World to his local livestock market and find anyone who is interested in what they see I will eat my hat. He can downplay my criticism, but I feel the hobby world is an existential threat to the breed. Herefords would not be the first breed the real world has relegated to the dustbin of history. I went to the MO Hereford field day this weekend. Great people. Cute cattle with the most current bloodlines. Absolutely no relationship to the real world I will see tomorrow at our local livestock market. The owner of the market would shudder to think he had to market a barn full of cattle like our frontline breeders consider state of the art. At the same time, the owner of the market, both auctioneers, and several of the order buyers are using Hereford bulls because they liked my calves when they came in the ring. That to me is real marketing, not a bunch of happy talk to each other.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 20:53:00 GMT -6
I think we should all remember that people like to back winners. If we all take on a good attitude & positivity about our breed then I think it would be a pleasure to have a commercial man or new breeder come across this forum. When someone reads this & thinks 'that's the guys I want to associate with', well we're a lot closer to having a new Hereford breeder & stronger industry. Everyone has their thoughts on certain cattle & what they prefer but it's our attitude & the way that we conduct ourselves that will help drive the Hereford breed forward. I have to say I think this is probably one of the best statements I've read here in a long time.
Look guys, I'm not trying to pick a fight by posting what I did. I think avignon stated it in a lot less words and probably in a better way than I ever could of. I think sometimes perspective gets lost, especially if you put yourselves in the shoes of the commercial man or new breeder looking at getting into Herefords and this is one of their first expiriences doing their research. We have people here with all kinds of different backgrounds, located all across the country and the World, different environmental issues to deal with, different philosophies on how a Hereford should look and be raised, and obviously different personalities. How a herd is raised in Texas or Arkansas isn't going to work in Minnesota or Wisconsin and vice versa, we have people here who line breed and those who don't, horned and polled, the list goes on but the one thing we can do is keep an open mind and conduct ourselves in a civil manner while trying to move the breed forward. Would we love to be able to raise our cattle entirely on grazing pasture? Hell yes it would be a lot cheaper than baling hay and buying grain to get through the winter and occasional droughts but how else are you going to develop yearlings in the northern states in the middle of winter with snow covered frozen ground? Think of that before criticizing how some breeders here run their operations or make breeding decisions. I'm pretty sure our cows would have a hard time surviving in the lower portion of the US just like a southern raised cow would probably have a hard time surviving in the northern part of the US.
One last note... On another cattle message board I was reading a thread where a commercial guy from Ohio was wondering where the Hereford bulls are for 1200 lb cows as he felt the Hereford breed was getting too big and there were not enough sires out there suitable for more moderate frame cows. This is an example of something we can't afford to completely ignore, someone out there probably has the genetics he is looking for his environment. Just because that is not the type of cattle you breed in your environment it doesn't mean that this guy is completely off his rocker for wanting cattle that fits his operation. Like it or not, how we market our breed can go a long ways to making relationships and sales than preaching from our pedestals on what a Hereford should be and being critical of our own breed. You don't need to be a used car saleman to sell cattle but building relationships while being honest sure goes a long ways to establishing your reputation.
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Post by elkwc on Sept 15, 2015 21:02:53 GMT -6
I had started to write basicailly about a similar issue a few weeks ago. But then decided to just move on and not post here anymore. I enjoy and learn from reading others opinions if they are gave in a constructive way. Are not degrading and condescending. There is one poster in particular that his opinion, management style and type of cattle are the only right ones. Anyone that uses a different style, has a different opinion or has found a different type of cattle perform better for them in their environmnet is referred as not to wise among other degrading comments. I talked to one former poster who has quit because of him and another breeder who I asked to post here who lurked and decided he didn't need the hassle. Successful breeders don't need the non productive ridicule this poster provides. I started to post some facts about the breeders he degraded their comments. But there is no need. They started with basically nothing and are respected locally, state wide and regionally. And a couple of them have records for over 50 yearst that support their statements. Again any newcomer that is considering Herefords and read his comments on this board will likely consider moving on. Opinions can be expressed in a respectful way.
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Post by whiteface on Sept 15, 2015 21:07:16 GMT -6
One last note... On another cattle message board I was reading a thread where a commercial guy from Ohio was wondering where the Hereford bulls are for 1200 lb cows as he felt the Hereford breed was getting too big and there were not enough sires out there suitable for more moderate frame cows. This is an example of something we can't afford to completely ignore, someone out there probably has the genetics he is looking for his environment. Just because that is not the type of cattle you breed in your environment it doesn't mean that this guy is completely off his rocker for wanting cattle that fits his operation. Like it or not, how we market our breed can go a long ways to making relationships and sales than preaching from our pedestals on what a Hereford should be and being critical of our own breed. You don't need to be a used car saleman to sell cattle but building relationships while being honest sure goes a long ways to establishing your reputation. [/p][/quote] Off subject just a tad. I would love a 1,200 lb mature cow. Bad thing is I have 1,000 lb heifers that I breed and looking at them I don't think theyre too big. I just put Quiet Wean flaps in and most register on the scales around 700lbs with 2 more weeks to go and thats EARLY for me weaning. I would say my cattle and most cattle here in NC Kansas are 5.5- 6.5 with more 7 frame then you'd think and 1500-1600lbs oh around 4-5 years old. Cull them at 8-10 and they're pushing 1700-1900. You don't realize your cattle are that big until you run them through your chute and scales. I just can't bring myself to consistently use a sub frame 5 bull like say Ribeye 88X or Perfect Timing. I'm afraid they'll get too small. I like a happy medium. I just don't know if my environment can accept moderate cattle AT THIS TIME. Anyways sorry, off topic. Id really like to see more cattle on here with constructive criticism. Sometimes what is obvious to more experienced breeders may not be obvious to others. Its like telling a farmer that a pre-emerge is a must if you're going to control weeds. You can say "are you F'ing blind?" or you can say "perhaps you should consider a fall application to control annuals and a different chemistry in the spring to prevent resistant pigweeds from ever emerging". One way goes over better than the other, even though you'd rather say the former.
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Post by bookcliff on Sept 15, 2015 21:32:22 GMT -6
I'm not so put out with the "newbies" as I am with the "well established" folks that seem to take pride in taking these folks to the CLEANERS. Selling them some big eared, prolapsing, no working, crap cattle for prices that'd make me blush if I ever tried asking those prices for cattle. there are some "big time" breeders that should be ashamed of themselves. you got it. looks like you are starting to get some pretty hard bark about this stuff like me and Tim. my issue with newbies and i will preclude myself by saying that not all of em are this way but I do see a whole bunch of em that get into this breed as well as others with thier whole idea based on getting thier kids show heifers and then what do we do with them, we try and raise thier own show hiefers so they don't have to go out and buy little johnny a hiefer each year. fine I don't have a prblem with that However, what I do have a problem with is that at the same time they try and sell the bulls outa those matings as a byproduct because after all they are "registered". no genetic planning for economically relavant traits, ;little to no regard paid to fertility since the whole program is based around showring strings, little to no regard to BW or calving easy and excuses galor when one of em don't breed , or prolaspes or has to be milked out and the just keep running em and selling that junk into a feller that will never have another hereford anything on the place after his first one from that kind of program.
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Post by larso on Sept 16, 2015 4:06:35 GMT -6
I hesitate to enter this debate but I will say a couple of things. I look at everyone on this site as a friend, I've only got to go back to the words of encouragement I received when I posted the events that happened to my wife 2 weeks ago. But as you get older you find you have less and less time for the BS and more time for the truth, and if that hurts you, you take it on the chin, not that I'm advocating disrespect or negativity, but there is a biblical verse that says " Faithfull are the wounds of a friend." So for me I'll wear what ever criticism is directed at my cattle and just try to improve them where needed.
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Post by ormanherf on Sept 16, 2015 13:31:25 GMT -6
I was taught as a small child a long time ago that there is only one kind of cow to have & that is a profitable one! Now with that being said who am I to judge everybody else's definition of what is profitable & why? I will promise you that one type of cow & bull will not work in every operation be it purebred or commercial across the united states let alone the world. The same type of management will not work everywhere either, nor will the same customer base. So it is a management decision of what size of cow to shoot for, whether to creep feed or not , or whether to try to sell high dollar show cattle, range bulls or cut everything & sell steers. I guess my point is not everything is going to work for everybody & opinions are Like&@$holes.... Everybody has one! I am not in to being politically correct either. But whining about so & so doing this wrong or that wrong makes you look petty & jealous especially when it is an outfit with some notoriety. They have got that way for a reason & if they have stayed there then there's a reason for that also! Maybe a person should try to learn something from them to try to achieve there level or maybe you are happy where you are either way trying to drag them down does you no good
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Post by elkwc on Sept 16, 2015 15:47:58 GMT -6
I hesitate to enter this debate but I will say a couple of things. I look at everyone on this site as a friend, I've only got to go back to the words of encouragement I received when I posted the events that happened to my wife 2 weeks ago. But as you get older you find you have less and less time for the BS and more time for the truth, and if that hurts you, you take it on the chin, not that I'm advocating disrespect or negativity, but there is a biblical verse that says " Faithfull are the wounds of a friend." So for me I'll wear what ever criticism is directed at my cattle and just try to improve them where needed. Although I agree with a lot of what you stated I still say that critisism can be done is a respectful and constructive manner. And when referring to peoples decisions and management styles calling them unwise among many other degrading comments is unnecessary. Like stated in another post there is no one type of animal or management practice that will work for everyone or in every location. A good farmer, cattleman and even gardener learns to adapt to their environment. I've had the pleasure of visiting with several older, very well respected cattemen this year. Had prolonged visits with a few of them. Most of them started with a few head, a few acres and have built nice outfits that they paid for with what the cattle produced without help from oil, gas or inheritance. In the last few years a few of them have benifitted from some of these but their outfits were already built and paid for. They have been both purebred and commercial breeders. Herefords are at least a part of each operation. Their is a difference in opinion among them about ideal cow size. They all have retained records for many years that verify where their herds have been and are currently. They each in recent years have consistently weaned bull and steer calves off the cows at over 700 lbs. Heifers close to 700 lbs. But the management practice of each is different. The herd health practices vary also although they are each considered a leader in herd health. The commercial breeders have a reputation for cattle that perform all the way to the rail. I was asked by Glenn once to share some of their views. Each time I have the one poster has felt the need to degrade their views. I have never seen him post a pic yet of his "perfect cattle.". Guess he is afraid of the critisism he might recieve. I won't share anymore as I don't it will serve any purpose but just provide another chance for this poster to degrade a successful breeder. It makes me wonder if he is jealous or can't accept the fact that his views aren't the only ones out there. Honest constructive critisism in beneficial. But name calling and insulting a person's intelligence isn't.
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Post by larissa on Sept 18, 2015 14:13:12 GMT -6
I have been a member of this board for a few years but I have chosen not to comment on it because I felt that what I said would most likely just be put down. That being said, because I feel that there are a lot of great comments being posted on this thread I have decided to add my two cents. While I realize that there are many breeders on this forum who have much more experience than I do, I feel that some of those breeders lack the open mindedness and respect that some of us younger breeders possess. I think that we must always remember that although we are all breeders of cattle, we’re all trying to reach different goals in different environments with different target markets. While a high dollar show animal may be of no value to you, a great producing range cow may be of no value to someone producing show cattle- it’s all a matter of perspective. I completely agree that there is a large variation in the type of Herefords that are marketed around the world (and even just North America), but I see that as a good thing because it allows buyers to purchase animals that they feel should excel in their exact situations.
Anyone who has seen me judge a junior show or work with young breeders knows that I strongly believe in constructive criticism. I think that it’s very important to be hard on the kids and push them to succeed but it must be done in a positive and encouraging manner. If you push too hard or just plain tell them that they suck they’re just going to get upset and not want to try to get better. I think that the same thing goes for these forums- constructive criticism is a very useful tool but there is a big difference between being helpful and being a jerk. Probably the best piece of advice that I ever received came from my mom a few years ago. She told me “Never be afraid to say what you want to say, just remember that there’s always a tactful way to say it”.
I believe that there is a great deal of knowledge that could be taken from this forum and the people who use it if only everyone would just be a little more open minded and respectful.
Larissa Lupul Owner of Barefoot Polled Herefords and former CJHA President
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Post by strojanherefords on Sept 19, 2015 20:27:46 GMT -6
I really appreciate the candor that Glenn allows here and I am a much better Hereford breeder because of the honest assessments given here. But I am humble enough to recognize that I might post something that someone might not like. If anybody feels that I cross a line, please message me and we can reach an understanding.
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Post by larso on Sept 20, 2015 4:43:36 GMT -6
A American General said once " to walk past what is substandard is to accept what is substandard " I don't think for one moment that breeders in the past deliberately tried to breed cows with bottle teats, bad udders etc. but over time these bad traits weren't culled for and were accepted as being acceptable where clearly they are not. So while some of the criticism on this forum may seem a bit harsh I would rather have it that way than pussy foot around the bush and not face the reality of the situation. Like Paul I don't believe we need to be offensive to one another to get our point across. I've always believed that the harshest critic of anybody's cattle should be the actual breeder himself and if that was the case some of the problems we face as a breed mightn't be so prevalent.
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Post by tartancowgirl on Sept 20, 2015 11:37:32 GMT -6
We are still relatively new breeders and I've learned a lot from this forum. If criticism is done tactfully it can only be beneficial. No-one sets out to breed an animal with bad faults but it happens. If the breeder is inexperienced and does not recognise it as a fault then it may well be perpetuated. At least there is a very good use for a substandard animal - you can always eat it!
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Post by hoekland on Sept 20, 2015 12:52:08 GMT -6
The biggest problem as I see it is people that haven't done their homework on th breed they want to breed often to the point where they can't distinguish between a champion and a cull. Not even to mention the finer details.
Sadly it is often these very same people that gets exploited by breeders who should know better or show better ethics. I can understand that its a tough pill to swallow to learn that your high dollar purchase really isn't worth much to the real world beef industry, but then again who's fault is it but your own if you did not do your research?
I would advise all breeders to do a breed related judging course, even if you don't see any use in showing or have no aspirations to judge a show in the future. It just helps to really look ( and see) in a methodical manner when looking at your stock.
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Post by lffarm on Sept 20, 2015 13:11:24 GMT -6
The biggest problem as I see it is people that haven't done their homework on th breed they want to breed often to the point where they can't distinguish between a champion and a cull. Not even to mention the finer details. Sadly it is often these very same people that gets exploited by breeders who should know better or show better ethics. I can understand that its a tough pill to swallow to learn that your high dollar purchase really isn't worth much to the real world beef industry, but then again who's fault is it but your own if you did not do your research? I would advise all breeders to do a breed related judging course, even if you don't see any use in showing or have no aspirations to judge a show in the future. It just helps to really look ( and see) in a methodical manner when looking at your stock. I agree with breed judging. But whith that said where would one find a person to teach someone the difference in a show Hereford and a beef Hereford there should be no difference but there is. Or are you talking about big ears and long heads
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Post by tartancowgirl on Sept 20, 2015 13:52:52 GMT -6
I have judged horses and dogs for many years, the latter at championship show level, but I would hesitate to say that I would be a good judge of cattle, although I did stock judging many years ago as a Young Farmer. We do not show our cattle but I do enjoy going to shows and watching the judging - the thing that worries me is that often at UK shows I don't see the way the judge's mind is working - the rationale behind his placings - and I don't think that commercial traits are really being considered. If I was judging, I would maybe not recognise the finer details but I hope I would choose animals that were sound, with good feet, legs and udders, and hopefully muscle in the right places. However I would also like to learn what essential breed character looks like - what really makes a Hereford different from other breeds, not because I want to judge but to make me critical of my own stock. I am worried that there are quite a lot of new wealthy people here in UK who are not not really farmers but are buying top winning show stock, mating them together and calling themselves breeders, and there is no real guidance available. So you experienced people on here should carry on saying what you think is going wrong, so long as it's done tactfully!
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Post by hoekland on Sept 20, 2015 13:53:44 GMT -6
I agree there shouldn't be difference and ultimately it is up to the judges to bring those two together again.
I think our ( and I include myself) quiet protest against the show world, withou actively getting involved to change thing, have only contributed to the great divide.
The basics of judging will still be beneficial to all breeders, whether you agree with the type and kind favoured or not
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