Are the days of the small registered breeder over?

[Glenn]

Good post on another site:

His words:

>>With the exception of the club or show cattle people.
Have times changed so much the past five years where the small registered breeder over.
I see several things that indicate this.. one internet auctions where a seller will deliver a bull sight unseen to a buyer on the tv or computer that has seen videos etc of the bull. Once, I went to get a really good bull when I got him home everyone asked where I got him. big mistake. Five people that could of been buyers from me went to that place and bought bulls from them sometimes they even discounted the bulls to them. Another example some others ask do I AI of course I do some. Then they go around and try to AI their cows not buying a bull either. I appreciate the calls and people coming to see the cattle and talk. It has just got out of hand.
I have got in the position where people I have known for years tell me to hold a bull for them later to find out they went somewhere else to a large breeder to get a bull. Watch out for the good ol boys and preachers.
I have seen small purebred dairy breeders and swine breeders go down a similar path but I thought it was industry driven.
What are others thoughts<<<

[oakcreekfarm]

I certainly hope not. We may have to change how we market and where we market, but I think there is plenty of buyers out there. My biggest issue is having enough bulls around for guys that need 3 or 4 to pick from. Sometimes they call and ask how many I have, and then say that's not enough to pick through and go else where. I will never be a huge breeder, I don't have the resources, but that doesn't mean that I can't be effective and profitable with what I do have.

[Glenn]

One thing (and Danny already mentioned this) but I do AI some but it is a burr under my saddle when buyers always ask "is he AI sired?"

Being AI sired can be good, but it does not always make them better. Too much AI and ET is going to narrow our genetic base and create real problems at some point.

Got more to add on the subject but want to hear other member's thoughts first.....

[talin]

My opinion are small businesses are at risk regardless of the industry. Unless you can find a niche that is too difficult to upsize the trend will be to use megadata to squeeze efficiencies and consolidate you see it in almost any industry. I don't know where the answer is in the commodity industry but the smaller producer may be best to market direct to consumer and try to eliminate the middle man. I think in the era of artificial reproduction cattle can be "zerox'ed" but management and knowledge of the local nutrition and market are unique and not easily upsourced.

[timbernt]

Yes. About 35 years ago Burke Healey predicted that purebred herds of more than 100 cows would not be able to compete because of the future need for data collection and compilation. His thinking was that the effort would be overwhelming for the large operations and he thought about 100 purebred cows was about all that could be properly managed by one operation with the demands for data in the future. Now that we are in that future we see he was right about the need for data, but totally wrong in that advances in livestock handling equipment and computers have made it possible to collect and manage large amounts of data. The reason I believe small operations are no longer viable is there simply are not enough animals to stratify so proper selection can occur. Also, smaller breeders tend to fall in love with individual animals and overlook faults. In my own operation I have been able to make much more progress toward my goals as my herd size has increased. As far as marketing, I think smaller breeders can be very successful with marketing as long as they do not confuse taking an animal to a show or consignment sale with marketing.

[bookcliff]

yes and no. the days of a feller with a small set of registerd cows selling range bulls is over unless in my opinion the following are in place

you got to raise better bulls on the average than the big boy's, and specifically a niche they often don't care about and then market it.

a better and more personalized customer service that the big boys, AKA will hold the bulls all spring till they want to turn em out, willing to deliver regardless how much pain in the ass it may be, showing up at the barn when they sell thier calves, taking the time to go thru thier cows when they want you to or when your by thier place, taking thier concerns seriously and trying to address them, but most importantly talking to them on a fairly regular basis.

you have to be realistic that just because Joe Van Newkirk can sell bulls for 10K doesn't mean you will

a solid reputation as a sure enough cowman especially locally

you have to find a way to market yourself and your program effectively and this requires you to go way outside the box of what the big operations have to do.

and finally,I don't know how to say it, other than "folks have to like you".



in other words you got to work at it harder and do it better than the big boys. Charlie Iodence told me one time "son, the bull business is 90% the people business, 10% the cattle business, but your bulls better be able to back up your mouth" and he is damn sure right.

if all you want to do is run a few papered cows, put and ad in the paper and sell bulls,have your general reputation as being know for something else than your cattle program (AKA "he's a hellava a little league coach but they never meantion your cows) then you better get ready for some disappointment.

[Deleted]

I don't think that bigger always means better. Smaller breeders may not have the name recognition or marketing budget that the big name and established programs do but I think if you are raising quality cattle then you will be able to find ways to market and sell them at fair value. Our herd isn't our main occupations. Dad always has had full time employment with some type of ag organization although he's set to retire at the end of the year and I own just a small portion of our herd and have a full time job myself. We know a lot of smaller breeders that while their cattle is not their primary job they still are able to raise and sell some pretty good cattle while having another full time occupation. I don't think the small breeder will ever really die out as long as they are efficient and have good quality.

As for the AI topic, as a small breeder I think you almost have to AI to get some different bloodlines into your herd otherwise you are going to be replacing your bulls pretty frequently. We run about 20-25 females in a given year and probably change herd bulls every 3 to 4 years because you usually start to get too many daughters after 3 or 4 calf crops. This is a pretty transitional breeding season for us, we're using a home raised yearling bull that is by an AI sire and out of a cow not bred in our program so he's a complete outcross for the most part. Breeding 24 females this year, attempting to synch 18 of them for AI not only to ease the yearling bull's work load so he has less cleanup but also to bring in some more outside bloodlines. We like to breed some of our best cows to AI bulls we don't have any or little genetics by if we can as that could be a herd bull in the making if we're lucky and worst case you either get a nice heifer or a marketable animal out of your herd bull. We only AI for 1 heat cycle too so we may not even get half of the AI group settled to an AI sire, especially since synching isn't 100%

[Glenn]

Okay, what is small?

Less than 50, 75, 100, 200?

[mrvictordomino]

Don't have time to weigh in too much right now but agree with Tom about being a people business, just have George remind us about doing business with a BIG firm.

[randy]

The days of the small cowman period are limited.


 I tried to explain part of that in another thread... "The industry is here".


  Alliances of breeders commercial and purebred will be the only way the small people survive. Even then you will have to be on your toes and be looking over your shoulder covering your ass.

  There are so many forces that want you gone from the picture.  

[Glenn]

LOL......My thought when I read all this can be summed up by the immortal Jerry Reed:

"We gonna do what they say can't be done....."

"......Keep your foot hard on the pedal. Son, never mind them brakes......."

"......Just put that hammer down and give it hell......."

And to paraphrase CW McCall

I says, "Randy, this here's Glenn Chitwood.
"And I'm about to put the hammer down."

[Glenn]

This is kind of getting side tracked (don't most of our threads?), but one thing most of us smaller Hereford guys have going is we are some tough SOB's. We've had our heads beat in by Angus for almost three decades now so most are "tough enough" to hang in there.

[larso]

Less than 75 IMO, with a 100 all things being right you should have close to 50 bull calves to evaluate and select from. It would be interesting to know what % of keepers do we expect to get out of each crop of bull calves. I have never adhered to the fact that just because your a bigger operation you must be better, give me a smaller run family enterprise where they stand behind their cattle than a large outfit that survives on sheer numbers.

[randy]

Thirty five years ago I was visiting with a "Grand Old Gentleman" from one of the better Hereford operations of that day. I mentioned that I had built to 104 purebred cows. He patted me on the back and said "That's a nice sized hobby herd do you farm too"? He was perfectly correct in calling my herd a "HOBBY HERD". That day it really got under my skin for him saying that. Down through the years I have realized he was a very wise man!!!!!!

Today I believe that maybe a number like 200 or 250 cows would be better correct in considering if a herd is sustainable operation that can provide for all the needs of the ranch and the people that run it.

[George]

When I started again in 2002, my goal was to get to 200 mama cows. I thought that was the point where a person could have real traction and make progress. The drought, and lack of available grass in the area, have prevented me from ever getting over the 100 cow mark. From a 90+ cow high, it has been slow attrition over the last 5-6 years where I am now down to 60 cows plus some heifers.

Add in +13 years of age, and a real weariness of fighting weather and driving 50+ miles to leases, I am now looking at being less than 50 cows by the end of the year. That is due to losing another local lease and not being able to find any more leased grass within a 50 mile radius.

I think that less than 50 mama cows is a small breeder. And I still think it takes at least 200 mama cows to get into the numbers where a breeder can compete with the top breeders out there and make it their full time job.

[Sudsy]

I

[okherefords]

I currently am back up to 50 head since the drought. In our county the average cow herd size is around 40 head from the last data I seen. With a lot of operators in the same boat I am working fulltime and trying to run cattle or being retired. I am in an area where you can run a cow on 2-3 acres with fertilization on normal years, and expanding is difficult as most land that comes up for sale is in 20-40 acre units priced around $5-7500 an acre. I know from my perspective it is possible to sell a lot more registered cattle than I am by selling, by marketing heifers and bulls in the various sales and private treaty. However, financially with the current prices it is more profitable, and easier to manage with my work schedule, to just sell about 2-3 bulls a year and sell the rest as feeder calves. Right now I have more people wanting to buy heifer calves than I could raise in 5 years to put on black bulls.

I am going to take early retirement at the end of this year which will give me the time to do the marketing and attend events and sales I cannot attend right now with my work schedule. Then the issue becomes how many cows and variations of marketing plans can I handle without bringing in outside help.

Small operations are not over, the last statistics I seen the majority of the operations had under 100 head with the vast majority under 60 head per operation. With that scale of economics you had to do what works in your operation to make it profitable.

I seen a comment on AI, AI is a necessary evil to use the genetics you cannot afford to otherwise. In the Angus deal many of them have a perception if it is not an AI calf they don't want to use it, which leaves a lot of genetics on the sidelines.

[oakcreekfarm]

I was reading an article recently that discussed the concerns and demands of a small herd (under 60). I couldn't find it before typing this so this is as close to as I can recall. It said that something like 70% of the worlds beef is produced in herds of less than 60 cows. The average cow size in the united states is considerably lower than that I believe. Maybe we should be less worried about what the big "range guy" wants and more concerned with who is producing most of the beef in this country, the small guy. I say that somewhat joking, so don't take it too seriously and rip me for it.

[Glenn]

I think small is 50 head or less. I think mid-size is 75-150 head. I think the road will be tougher for the small guys but can be navigated. I think there is real opportunity for the 100 head type guy. I guess I am more sanguine than most of the guys here. I think a guy that can "build a better mousetrap" and differentiate his breeding can get a good clientele and make a decent go at things.

I am less optimistic for the "multipliers" and "bull of the month" breeders. A guy can get a "Revolution son" anywhere or a Sensation son anywhere, just like the Angus guys. Small guys breeding bull of the month are going to be a commodity breeder and 100-150 head just isn't enough gross revenue when you are strictly selling a commodity.

The key is going to be to breed quality and be a little different than everyone else.

[tartancowgirl]

I suppose it depends on the size of your farm. Round where I live the average farm size is about 250 acres - ours is only 100 because we could only afford part of the farm, and not the best part either as it often floods in the winter. The average commercial suckler herd is probably about 100 cows, although dairy herds are now considerably bigger. Pedigree herds though are often much smaller and I don't think there are many large Hereford herds now, in fact there are many with less than 30 cows and a lot of those will be "hobby breeders".
What would be the biggest purebred herds in N America, Australia, S Africa, S. America?

[Carlos (frmaiz)]

I hope not.
The internet provides inexpensive tools to show and promote the herd and the program very efficiently all over. A marketing tool unexistant 10 years ago.
But as said above, survival will be based on human relations, integrity and good cattle.

[timbernt]

George makes a point that I strongly agree with. It takes a decent size cowherd to reach "critical mass". I personally feel it is around 200 cows. At least 100. At that point you have enough numbers to be independent of needing constant infusion of outside genetics and enough sale cattle to market your own brand. At that point you can create the type animal you visualize; in effect your own brand.

[mrvictordomino]

May 5, 2015 16:11:09 GMT -6 Glenn said:

I think small is 50 head or less. I think mid-size is 75-150 head. I think the road will be tougher for the small guys but can be navigated. I think there is real opportunity for the 100 head type guy. I guess I am more sanguine than most of the guys here. I think a guy that can "build a better mousetrap" and differentiate his breeding can get a good clientele and make a decent go at things.

I am less optimistic for the "multipliers" and "bull of the month" breeders. A guy can get a "Revolution son" anywhere or a Sensation son anywhere, just like the Angus guys. Small guys breeding bull of the month are going to be a commodity breeder and 100-150 head just isn't enough gross revenue when you are strictly selling a commodity.

The key is going to be to breed quality and be a little different than everyone else.

Good post. Allot of 50 or less herds around here. I am currently running around 190-200 cows/heifers and I have never considered myself as being in the large category. I always thought of the herds that have twice as many or more to be in the large category. Like the being different line.... Not many Polled closed herds out there.

[George]

Considering, in 2014, there was only one breeder who registered 1000+ and only one more who registered 500+, I think anyone who registers 100+ calves will fall into the category of being among the breed's largest registered breeders.

[larso]

I agree with Glen, there has to be a point of "Difference" along with integrity. Some mightn't agree but with the use of embryo transfer's the smaller breeder can compete, even with the bigger herds what you find is that it's generally only a 1/2 dozen cows that carry the herd, you only got to look at how many ET brothers are in their sale catalogues.