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Post by hoekland on Apr 13, 2015 6:07:03 GMT -6
I think most here know I want functional udders and don't worry too much about it being pretty as long as it lasts the productive life of the cow without me needing to help out. That being said, my poll herd has got outstanding udders as a result of the bull I've based my breeding program on, but it came as a bonus more than by strict selection.
I'm wondering aren't we taking the whole tight udder thing too far again to the point where we are starting to breed the milk away? In the not so distant past one of the main complaints about hereford was that they don't milk like other beef breeds. I know udder size is a poor indication of milking ability and especially milk quality, but I've seen way more tight uddered cows with not enough milk than I've seen sloppy uddered cows with not enough milk(or too much for that matter).
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Post by bltherf on Apr 13, 2015 13:10:36 GMT -6
Think you are right with your observation Hoekland. I can remember our old horned cows ;35 years ago weaning 800 lb calves . It does seem all the effort to progress to where now our udders are so much more tucked up, tight and smaller teated has really not added any milk,only improved the packaging a great deal! Would still not go back to poorer udders for more milk and there is no reason to. There are enough good uddered cows that have more than average milk flow. Since we too have both polled and horned cows I also find it is easier to get better udders with the polled genetics. Just wish now they could compete with my horned cows for immune strength and doing ability in tough conditions.
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Post by hoekland on Apr 14, 2015 9:19:38 GMT -6
I too have both horned and poll herefords, at the moment my polls are years ahead of my horned program, but I've been at it a lot longer with them. I do prefer the look of the horned herefords, but for efficiency the polls again beat them. That being said the polls calve more in synch with the seasons here, although both herds are still out of whack since I've moved.
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Post by larso on Apr 14, 2015 12:49:46 GMT -6
A bit of an open question, but how long should you expect a cows udder to stay in full production. I don't mean during lactation I mean the age of the cow?
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Post by hoekland on Apr 14, 2015 13:24:33 GMT -6
Till her teeth gives in, here its usually around 12
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Post by elkwc on Apr 14, 2015 17:13:43 GMT -6
This is an item that I've put more thought into lately than I have the past. I guess my question is milk flow vs udder size. One prime example I've watched the last year plus is an Angus heifer that had her first calf at around 16 months and her second ten months later. At first I didn't think she was going to give enough milk. She has a nice tidy udder almost on the small side. But her first calf did great and her current calf is also. For the first 2-3 weeks her teats will drip almost constantly. An old timer that used to have a dairy told me that milk flow is more important than udder size. I'm beginning to believe that and this cow has further convinced me there is a lot to milk flow. With that being said how do any of you determine milk flow? Just by observation? I'm looking forward to all comments on this.
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Post by larso on Apr 14, 2015 17:42:33 GMT -6
I'm just weaning at the moment and it's interesting to note the difference in calf weights and shine and while there doesn't seem to be an obvious difference in udder shape and size of the dams the calves sure show the discrepancy. I've never thought of milk flow as such but I'll certainly take note in the future.
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Post by hoekland on Apr 15, 2015 1:21:50 GMT -6
I'm not so sure about the milk flow, but I believe butterfat is the main difference between those shiny, soggy ones and the rest.
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Post by strojanherefords on Apr 16, 2015 22:44:17 GMT -6
I think most here know I want functional udders and don't worry too much about it being pretty as long as it lasts the productive life of the cow without me needing to help out. That being said, my poll herd has got outstanding udders as a result of the bull I've based my breeding program on, but it came as a bonus more than by strict selection. I'm wondering aren't we taking the whole tight udder thing too far again to the point where we are starting to breed the milk away? In the not so distant past one of the main complaints about hereford was that they don't milk like other beef breeds. I know udder size is a poor indication of milking ability and especially milk quality, but I've seen way more tight uddered cows with not enough milk than I've seen sloppy uddered cows with not enough milk(or too much for that matter). I am of the opinion that most of the issues with udders are due to milk duct blockages and mastitis, as opposed to teat size and suspension issues. As a result I feel that udder quality is a pass fail criteria.
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Post by mrvictordomino on Apr 26, 2015 5:59:23 GMT -6
Cow 303 pictured with her heifer calf, coming twelve years old showing one of the older cows here. Like many of you, I have noticed the differences in quantity verses quality of milk flow. Udder size doesn't always correlate to weaning weight performance. Starting to place an emphasis on selection of future herd bulls with this in mind hopefully to improve milk quality and tighter udders.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 15:31:22 GMT -6
Found this doozie on another site with the title "Will this cow support a calf?" Crazy why anyone would even consider keeping a cow like this...
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Post by tartancowgirl on Apr 27, 2015 16:16:09 GMT -6
One of the main criticisms of the Hereford in the UK is lack of milk - I am assuming this means light weaning weight because you can't measure milk supply. I do think that people here tend to equate size of udder with amount of milk, but I have been told that the old breeders used to say that the Hereford had higher butterfat levels than other breeds, so quantity isn't the whole story. It's also complicated presumably by the way the calf utilises the forage that it eats when it's rumen develops - presumably some do this better than others. From my own observation of our cows, the one whose calves are consistently heavier at 200 days does have the biggest udder but it will be interesting to see if she develops udder problems when she is older - she is 10 years this year and about to produce her 7th calf. Her last calf, a heifer, weighed 254 kg at 205 days, which is good for our smaller cows.
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Post by tartancowgirl on Apr 27, 2015 16:26:41 GMT -6
Here is the cow I mentioned - she is due on May 3rd. Her udder is a bit saggy now but her calves don't seem to have a problem with it. I have 3 daughters from her so it will be interesting to see how their calves develop. Attachment Deleted
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Post by elkwc on Apr 27, 2015 16:42:20 GMT -6
The old timer I talked too ran a dairy for many years. He said they experimented with milking 2,3 and even a little with 4 times a day especially when he was young and trying to find a way to reap the most milk. He said they found that some cows would produce well when milked 2 times a day but if milked more production would drop. Others might produce a little less each milking but produce more total milk when milked 3 times a day. Some of the big dairies around here have went to 3. He said they found a few of the cows produced less when milked twice but would maintain the same level of production even when milked 4 times a day. He attributes that to milk flow. He said the bags on those cows would tend to be smaller. He said he noticed that certain breeds tended to have more milk flow than others. Like I stated earlier that I'm still watching a few cows but it is evident to me there is something to it. I also agree that butterfat makes a difference.
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Post by hoekland on Apr 28, 2015 0:13:07 GMT -6
Here is the cow I mentioned - she is due on May 3rd. Her udder is a bit saggy now but her calves don't seem to have a problem with it. I have 3 daughters from her so it will be interesting to see how their calves develop. View AttachmentTartan, your cow is a good example of what I wanted to get across. SHe hasn't got a perfect udder, but it's still functional at 10 years old and in my environment that is just about good enough as their teeth will be very worn by then. Very few cows here will last much longer than 12 UNDER MY MANAGEMENT. Just as some are afraid they breed the growth out of herefords again, I am concerned that the udder fetish is breeding the milk out of herefords again, just like teh drive for carcass bred the doing ability out of angus.
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