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Post by George on Mar 3, 2015 9:19:41 GMT -6
Jay, what about the bull is it that you don't care for? FWIW, I like the bull and think he would REALLY work on a set of black cows down in our country. I just think the older bull is much better. Younger one is ok but from the two pics which one would u choose George. Going strictly off of pics. jay, I wish I could honestly answer that, but I probably can't, since I have seen the bulls in person and I know so much about the older bull's dam and granddam. So bias would creep in regardless of my trying to be objective. But I wouldn't turn around for the difference on a strictly visual appraisal. I think both are good commercial bull prospects that would work well on either black or earred cows.
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Post by hoekland on Mar 3, 2015 9:20:30 GMT -6
How do you "get" recognition? I fail miserably at marketing. I had thought I might get to sell some at a bull sale in Kansas this fall but I guess that has been shuttered so that avenue to get my bulls out to a wider audience failed. Read more: herefordtalk.com/thread/2511/discussion-purposes-selling-bulls?page=1#ixzz3TKtzCN2uTwo ways... one is to participate in your local area's meetings, open days, shows, sales, etc. The other is the slow way of selling bulls cheaply, they do well and you charge the return customer a little more than the previous time, its probably the best in the long run, but it takes awfully long. I sold a few good bulls cheaply to breeders that love showing and they had success with them, but more importantly also with their offspring. We are in a tough market the last few years, but I've sold all my bulls every year for the last 8 or so years, some for good money, but mostly at very affordable prices.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 9:31:15 GMT -6
How do you get recognition? My take... it's kinda like worrying about being single your whole life or seeking love... it won't happen til you quit worrying about it. From reading on here I gather you've visited with holden. Sometime after their sale ask him those questions. They used to have a sale in great falls and couldn't hardly give the bulls away like anyone else. Not my point to knock them but show what's possible if you emerse yourself in the biz. But it's something you will spend your life committed to. These places with recognition or reputation are 3 or 4 or 5 generation deals. Also you are selling yourself as much as you are the cattle. I dont think there i a recipe you can follow in this biz. Just focus on what makes you happy and dont worry about the rest. Curious what your goals are with hereford cattle glenn?
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Post by Glenn on Mar 3, 2015 10:46:18 GMT -6
I'm not begging for "recognition". I guess I was trying to use myself as a real world example of how everything isn't as rosey as the HW makes it out to be. Not every Hereford calf is worth $5,000 the minute he's born OR two years later!
As far as my ambitions. They are MYRIAD. (I am a complicated guy). But if I could distill the main thing with the cows it would be to have THE BEST COWHERD anywhere. To me it's all about cows and about the bulls that will sire those kinds of cows.
Unlike many, I did not inherit a square centimeter of this Earth's surface. Nor have I received as much as $1 in any inheritance. My family was not in the cattle business. I did not buy any family cattle or obviously have any given to me. I started out in 1993 buying $25 half Holstein bottle calves to raise and sell. So a secondary goal (told you there was a MYRIAD of reasons) is to see if it is possible in this day and age to start "flat footed" (or from scratch if you will) and build a viable seedstock operation.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 3, 2015 10:47:55 GMT -6
FOR A PROFIT Not as a Hobby as so many rich people do.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 11:44:53 GMT -6
I'll throw a POINT B question out: How do you "get" recognition? I fail miserably at marketing. I had thought I might get to sell some at a bull sale in Kansas this fall but I guess that has been shuttered so that avenue to get my bulls out to a wider audience failed.
Before I bring up some suggestions on ways to market I want to know what do you currently do for marketing? I know you have a website and Facebook page which is more than some guys have but do you advertise in anything, where do you advertise in any publications or place ads to market your sale animals, member of your state association, attend functions, etc? I can save some words if I get a better understanding of how you are currently marketing your program and sale cattle.
I've looked at your website and I like how it's nice and clean and easy to navigate and good pictures that represent your program well. There is 1 feature that might enhance it from a marketing standpoint and that is adding a page for your sale cattle. If you are actively marketing sale cattle having pictures and information about them on your website could draw more interest, anyone can find you with as something as simple as typing "Texas Herefords" into Google and it's also nice to already have that out there if you get a call you can direct a potential buyer to your website to get more information that you can't give out over the phone as easily.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 3, 2015 12:05:01 GMT -6
Travis,
Like I said, I am remiss at advertising. I do have a neglected webpage. I do have a FB page that is getting neglected, but that is sort of by design. I have found they feed the pics out to more people if it comes from your personal page and not a "business" page. They want you to pay if it's a business page by "boosting" the post. They'll send a pic out to 35-55 people for free then they want some payola.
I have never put an ad in a magazine. I have used craigslist. I have used the CattleRange. The cattle range is pretty good. Craigslist is very hit or miss.
I just recently joined THA (Texas Hereford Association), but have not attended any events. I am wary of "association" sales because of poor consignments by other breeders and exorbitant fees. Most of the ones that I see results on have decent results on females but the bulls are basically given away.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 12:30:09 GMT -6
I think you are on the right track Glenn. One thing I was going to bring up was Craigslist as we use that and get a lot of calls from our ads, it could be more hit or miss in some geographic areas probably but we're amazed by the amount of calls we get whenever we post ads there. Your state association might provide some good advertising avenues possibly. Our association puts out a new directory every 2 years which goes out to all members plus hundreds of commercial breeders, sale barns, county extension offices, etc. so like many breeders we place a 1 page ad in that because it gets quite a bit of circulation. They also have a newsletter mailed out 5 times a year that provides another avenue to advertise. We run a basic farm listing in Livestock Plus and have either placed ads or bought into a cooperative ad with other breeders in our state in other publications such as Midwest Marketer and Hereford America. Just depends on what kind of budget you want to have for some indirect marketing to get some name exposure. Even something as simple as sponsoring a class winner or trophy at your state's junior show is another way.
Completely understand your stance on consignment sales, they aren't for everyone and believe it or not as much as I've talked about how well our state sale averages we haven't consigned on it that often. We get enough interest with private treaty sales that we prefer not to go through the work involved with breaking an animal to lead and all the sale costs that go with consigning but its there as an option if we feel like it's worth it. There is nothing wrong with attending the sale and any sale events and using that to gain some networking opportunities. We usually attend the sale banquet and the sale even if we are not going to consign or bid on anything because you still get to view some good cattle and talk with your fellow breeders.
As someone has already stated it takes time to build that customer base and name recognition/reputation and if you have to let a bull go for a little less than you hoped to get it's not always a bad thing as if you believe in the cattle you are breeding then over time people are going to see that your cattle perform well and that leads to referrals and repeat buyers.
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Post by larso on Mar 3, 2015 13:50:01 GMT -6
As far as my ambitions. They are MYRIAD. (I am a complicated guy). But if I could distill the main thing with the cows it would be to have THE BEST COWHERD anywhere. To me it's all about cows and about the bulls that will sire those kinds of cows.
I have the same goal Glenn, I believe the bulls are a by-product of your cow herd and if you concentrate your efforts there the rest will follow. You can be a great product and financial man but fall short in marketing and very few people are good at all three. My advice is to seek out someone, perhaps a distant relative or friend who has been successful at marketing and see if he could help, someone who thinks a little "outside the square" we can become very tunnel vision when it comes to marketing.
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Post by dougthorson on Mar 3, 2015 14:37:17 GMT -6
This thread has got to me so I have to reply.
My 2014 tax return showed an advertizing bill of $13,159.60. My 2015 budget shows that number at $16,000. Add to that at least 100 hours spent in the local sale barn talking to people, by now most know I raise Hereford bulls. Add 1000 miles driven and a couple hundred more hours visiting with customers and looking through their herds to see what works in their setting. The first 6 years of raising Hereford bulls made my tax form 1040 show a $190,000 carryover loss. At that point my banker asked me "Do you really want me to loan you more money?
I had a very good sale. I averaged $6,589, but it doesn't just happen. Commercial guys laugh at me but even 10 years in I would be in better shape financially if I had stayed commercial but I can see the progress and I am convinced in a couple years I won't be able to say that.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 3, 2015 15:52:44 GMT -6
Lazarus returns!!!!
Since you upped the advertising budget for next year you can send me a catalog!
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Post by George on Mar 3, 2015 16:01:38 GMT -6
Lazarus returns!!!! Since you upped the advertising budget for next year you can send me a catalog! Doug, I like the looks of that Jamison bull that you bought.
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Post by jayh on Mar 3, 2015 16:20:43 GMT -6
I just think the older bull is much better. Younger one is ok but from the two pics which one would u choose George. Going strictly off of pics. jay, I wish I could honestly answer that, but I probably can't, since I have seen the bulls in person and I know so much about the older bull's dam and granddam. So bias would creep in regardless of my trying to be objective. But I wouldn't turn around for the difference on a strictly visual appraisal. I think both are good commercial bull prospects that would work well on either black or earred cows. I agree both will work in commercial herds. I never said anything was wrong with the bull just didn't care for him myself but then again I raise ( TOADS). He ask I commented. I think he has very good bulls and would not ever think twice about sending someone his way to buy even though I have never met the man. I think he has a top notch operation I think he spends a great deal of time with it and it will be successful. I just didn't care for the younger bull at this time but feed and maturity makes a big difference.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 3, 2015 17:31:48 GMT -6
Hey, jay, you sure don't have to worry. I understand, we all have tastes. I sure don't want anyone to worry about not liking them. That is fine.
I like the looks of the younger bull better, myself, but feel the older bull has more to offer as a breeding bull, knowing his background.
I appreciate all the input. I tried to give a real world example and wasn't afraid to put myself out there as an example.
I was trying to show what I thought were two good marketable commercial bulls that I 'think' I have sold and show that not everyone is getting 6-7-8-9 thousand for them like HW would have you believe or like it seems a lot of people think. I got a little less than $4000 per head on the set as a package deal. I am happy to sell them.
If anyone has some more thoughts, post them up. I really like that people took a personal interest in my program. I am still learning and "making these cattle mine". One thing I can state, right or wrong is I am not shy about using my own cooking on the top and bottom of the pedigrees.
I know I can be a bit bold at times and that turns some people off. For my demeanor if it is a put off, I do apologize.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 3, 2015 17:45:23 GMT -6
Right in the middle of typing that last post, I got a text from a family that I sold a bred cow to last fall. She calved today and they seemed genuinely happy and excited about the calf (by a GC Prairie Domino bull - LOL). It's the little things like that, that make you feel good about the Hereford business.
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Post by jayh on Mar 3, 2015 19:49:17 GMT -6
Glenn , I for one like your operation just keep it up and dont go to using black bulls again. Lol. We as a breed need self starters like u. And I can tell u we both have different taste. But in the end the love for Herefords is in both of us I think.
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Post by circleh on Mar 3, 2015 20:03:29 GMT -6
Glenn marketing is key to a opening avenues for sales. Facebook, and even craigslist have helped me sale animals in TN, AL, MS, Ky, and Texas this year, and to be honest I don't have enough cows to consider them a herd. If Mr. Coley is lurking he could give great advice on marketing. I have seen some of his adds and brochures and he (or his wife) do a great job. He even "tricked me" into buying a bull! Had a friend consign heifers to the San Saba female sale last week and he was happy with the set up. I am looking at marketing a few of my females in local affiliation sales. Want to clarify that I run registered Gert cows AI and clean up with a L1 horned Hereford bull. I am still looking for the right registered hereford female to get my feet wet.
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Post by erherf on Mar 5, 2015 6:26:12 GMT -6
How do you get recognition? My take... it's kinda like worrying about being single your whole life or seeking love... it won't happen til you quit worrying about it. From reading on here I gather you've visited with holden. Sometime after their sale ask him those questions. They used to have a sale in great falls and couldn't hardly give the bulls away like anyone else. Not my point to knock them but show what's possible if you emerse yourself in the biz. But it's something you will spend your life committed to. These places with recognition or reputation are 3 or 4 or 5 generation deals. Also you are selling yourself as much as you are the cattle. I dont think there i a recipe you can follow in this biz. Just focus on what makes you happy and dont worry about the rest. Curious what your goals are with hereford cattle glenn? Like your thoughts Ace. I really kinda wonder about the seed stock industry sometimes. Comments like feed him a little more he will look better seem to be the road the bull salesman are headed down. At many of these places they actually do have very good genetics and the bulls do kinda work for a few years. But are we really finding out what these cattle are made of. Most of you probably think Im off my rocker and do not try this at home if all you want is high dollars, but letting your cattle develop in a natural environment with little or no supplementation actually lets the cream rise to the top and its a lot less work. It does require developing a cliental with a little different perspective. Like your bulls Glen, kinda had a hunch the 2 was an 0132. I kinda like the fall bull better, like those longer heads.
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Post by hoekland on Mar 5, 2015 9:15:50 GMT -6
Maybe slightly off topic, but still applicable today. All of us hereford breeders need to become more involved in the breed, until we get that big hereford family thing going again, we'll continue to struggle for there will be no colective effort to market the breed through personal contact.
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Post by okherefords on Mar 5, 2015 10:17:54 GMT -6
Glenn,
I like the looks of your cattle and your program. My wife and I in our operation would prefer to support the many folks like you on this forum when we and purchase cattle, and right due to trying to recover from the last 4 years of drought and the previous 2 years before that of flooding rains that pretty much washed out crops, we know we cannot afford the prices at the big operations, which is why in our operation we do alot of AI work to try to raise calves out of the bulls we like from Cooper, Holden etc.
I have many of the same issues you face in Eastern Oklahoma. Last Fall had several inquiries from folks who were serious in only wanting to pay $1500-2500 for bulls, even after they had just sold calves for 2.80 and upwards. Another issue we face is there are a couple of large Angus ranches, 2 years ago one of them sold alot of bulls from 2500-4000, this fall at there sale the prices did bump upward a bit to 3-5k for the majority of the bulls. That make it difficult to get alot of money out of Bulls. For that reason I have started only keeping about 2-3 bulls to sell and cutting the rest which in this market actually works out better financially than feeding bulls to 2 years of age.
I have adverstised in some local papers and livestock publications which does seem to work at times, and will occassionaly sell in our state sale which can be a hit or miss proposition. We also have a couple of sale barns that have bred cow and bull sales and we can if we hit the right sale get pretty good money at them.
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Post by Glenn on Mar 5, 2015 10:51:02 GMT -6
until we get that big hereford family thing going again, we'll continue to struggle for there will be no colective effort to market the breed through personal contact. Great point Harley. It may happen to you guys but I'm sure it happens to me more as I post more here and I am the admin, but I am amazed at the venom sometimes. Sometimes in the posts but more often in the PM's and emails. I know I can seem brusque in some of my posts, but that is not my personality in real life. I am pretty laid back and more of a listener than a talker,I am pretty sure that most of the folks who have actually met me for the most part like me, but you would be amazed at the things people think of me and outright say to me in PMs. I hope you guys are nicer to each other. I am personally going to make a point of being more kind in my posts. I think all of us have something of value to add to the breed. Are we ever gonna agree 100%? Certainly not, but we can try to help each other out. I know I have given several people George's name when they asked me about polled bulls, and the guy that is buying the three bulls in this thread needed two more and he asked me about Mike and Jane's cattle and I talked them up as good as I could and I think they may be selling him a couple. Guess, that's a windy way of saying that I'm kind of beat down with the negativity and want us all (including me) to try better. Thanks for the post, Harley.
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Post by hoekland on Mar 5, 2015 12:48:46 GMT -6
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