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Post by shiloh on Feb 23, 2015 18:06:24 GMT -6
This is a rabbit trail off of the AHA News thread. If there is enough support, I could write a shiny version of this, or whatever y'all think needs to be said, and figure out a way to let people "sign" it. If nobody wants to do it, we'll let sleeping dogs lie. If you have an edit/correction/addition/comment, put it in the comments. If you would sign the letter, like this post. If theres enough likes to make it worthwhile, we'll do it. We need to: continue to improve the CHB program. focus our marketing on Hereford's strengths, not how they compare to Angus. educate the general public about Hereford cattle, their history and how they fit the needs of today's consumers. reach out and encourage new breeders to use Herefords (it's an impressionable and growing market) educate new breeders on how to raise, breed, and market Herefords continue to conduct studies on how to improve our cattle and the beef they produce continue to conduct studies that scientifically prove the merits of Hereford cattle and beef plaster the results of said studies on every lamppost and web page we can find perhaps implement the MSA grading system here in the US www.mla.com.au/Marketing-beef-and-lamb/Meat-Standards-Australia/MSA-beef/Grading (short version, It is also more reliable and consistent, and it doesn't rely solely on marbling, taking the competitive edge away from high marbling breeds.) find a way to tie the show ring to the realities of beef production encourage more breeders to turn in more information for more accurate EPDs diligently work towards more accurate EPDs have more openness and transparency concerning the EPD system and calculations, their strengths and shortcomings perhaps have the option to publish actual data along with the EPDs have at least equal emphasis on the show side and commercial beef production side of the association (what happened to the NHF, can't find it anywhere...) work toward getting more Hereford influenced and straight Hereford cattle into feedlots and onto plates, preferably with a CHB brand on them What else do we need? What can we cross out? What if instead of only discussing it amongst ourselves, we get together a "wish list" for the new EXVP, (not what I wrote, but change it as we need to) everybody "sign" it, (just add their name, we can't mail it everywhere) then send it in to the AHA. Certainly if enough people sign it, they would have to at least read it. |
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Post by larso on Feb 23, 2015 20:28:06 GMT -6
Your perceived problems and issues are not limited to your country alone, in fact I would suggest they are the same world wide certainly here in Australia anyway. So I will be watching this post with interest and any constructive criticism I hope will be well received.
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Post by jayh on Feb 24, 2015 17:04:17 GMT -6
I don't know Shiloh about how we need to present this but your on right track I think. The thing that will be hard is the show thing. If you can tie it to real beef production and not just the fluff and puff of the money men then we can move forward. till then everything is big business and money and to hell with the small guys. I will sign it if or email copy or whatever. let me know.
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Post by larso on Feb 25, 2015 1:01:35 GMT -6
I've got an idea to add to your list, all board directors of AHA and AUS to must become members of Hereford Talk and it is compulsory for them to read the posts 1st thing in the morning and last thing at night, no if's or but's.  |
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Post by shumakerherefords on Feb 25, 2015 13:08:45 GMT -6
shiloh, Now that AHA has identified the search committee you might send a copy of this thread to each member of the committee. As far as the National Hereford Feedout I will recount a little of the history. Both the horned and polled associations had feedlot programs back in the 1960s but those were ended for some reason. Then in the mid 1990s the combined associations as AHA started the Genetic Outreach Program (GOP) that allowed breeders to enter as few as 5 head in feedlot trials. Then about 2003 the AHA dropped the GOP program claiming it was requiring too much staff time. Fortunately the Kansas Hereford Association stepped up to rescue the program. About a year later AHA apparently realized that dropping the feedlot program was a mistake and jumped back in with the National Hereford Feedout (NHF) to be managed by the Kansas Hereford Assn. There was talk of monetary incentives for top groups but that never materialized. I had sent calves to the GOP/NHF from 2000 to 2011 until the feed yard was changed to Decauter Feedyard which would not feed out my cull heifers. Since then the NHF has fallen victim to high calf prices with most breeders unwilling to retain ownership through the feed out. Since 2012 there have not been enough breeders interested to make a test. Since 2012 I have continued to collect data on my steers and cull heifers. The first 2 years they were entered in the TriCounty Futurity Program at Gregory Feedlot in Iowa. However I discovered that it took about 35% more feed in Iowa than in western Nebraska and Kansas. The last 2 years I have made arrangements with Royal Beef in Scott City, Kansas to collect all the feed, carcass and DNA data. www.shumakerherefords.com/smfeedlot.htmlThe problem with a feedlot test is that the 'big name' breeders won't participate for fear of embarrassment. Also it doesn't generate the purple ribbons and color glossy photos that can be used in Hereford World. However the feedlot is absolutely essential for survival of the Hereford breed. |
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Post by George on Feb 25, 2015 13:33:24 GMT -6
From the AHA:
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Post by shiloh on Feb 25, 2015 14:17:24 GMT -6
Your perceived problems and issues are not limited to your country alone, in fact I would suggest they are the same world wide certainly here in Australia anyway. So I will be watching this post with interest and any constructive criticism I hope will be well received. Feb 24, 2015 17:04:17 GMT -6 jayh said: I don't know Shiloh about how we need to present this but your on right track I think. The thing that will be hard is the show thing. If you can tie it to real beef production and not just the fluff and puff of the money men then we can move forward. till then everything is big business and money and to hell with the small guys. I will sign it if or email copy or whatever. let me know. I was thinking if there's 10 big business guys and 100 small guys, maybe we could balance things out. I don't know. I had a couple ideas on the show thing, but not sure if it matters now.
Feb 25, 2015 1:01:35 GMT -6 larso said:
I've got an idea to add to your list, all board directors of AHA and AUS to must become members of Hereford Talk and it is compulsory for them to read the posts 1st thing in the morning and last thing at night, no if's or but's.
Heck yeah! But seriously, the least they could do is set up an official AHA forum, and answer questions publicly. I could understand if HT is too radical for them to support  but if they're in control, there's no excuse not to have a forum. Then when people have problems, they could post them up like customer support, other people could read it, and it might even save the AHA time answering questions. I realize I'm being optimistic, but that's kind of the point of this whole thing.Feb 25, 2015 13:08:45 GMT -6 shumakerherefords said:
shiloh,
Now that AHA has identified the search committee you might send a copy of this thread to each member of the committee.
As far as the National Hereford Feedout I will recount a little of the history. Both the horned and polled associations had feedlot programs back in the 1960s but those were ended for some reason. Then in the mid 1990s the combined associations as AHA started the Genetic Outreach Program (GOP) that allowed breeders to enter as few as 5 head in feedlot trials. Then about 2003 the AHA dropped the GOP program claiming it was requiring too much staff time. Fortunately the Kansas Hereford Association stepped up to rescue the program.
About a year later AHA apparently realized that dropping the feedlot program was a mistake and jumped back in with the National Hereford Feedout (NHF) to be managed by the Kansas Hereford Assn. There was talk of monetary incentives for top groups but that never materialized. I had sent calves to the GOP/NHF from 2000 to 2011 until the feed yard was changed to Decauter Feedyard which would not feed out my cull heifers. Since then the NHF has fallen victim to high calf prices with most breeders unwilling to retain ownership through the feed out. Since 2012 there have not been enough breeders interested to make a test.
Since 2012 I have continued to collect data on my steers and cull heifers. The first 2 years they were entered in the TriCounty Futurity Program at Gregory Feedlot in Iowa. However I discovered that it took about 35% more feed in Iowa than in western Nebraska and Kansas. The last 2 years I have made arrangements with Royal Beef in Scott City, Kansas to collect all the feed, carcass and DNA data. www.shumakerherefords.com/smfeedlot.html
The problem with a feedlot test is that the 'big name' breeders won't participate for fear of embarrassment. Also it doesn't generate the purple ribbons and color glossy photos that can be used in Hereford World. However the feedlot is absolutely essential for survival of the Hereford breed.
I tried to find what was going on with the GOP/NHF thing, and I couldn't find any info beyond 2012, so I assumed it was canceled. Thank you for explaining what happened. I guess if there aren't enough people, you can't do it anyway, but I agree with you 100% about feedlot tests being essential. What good does it do to raise beef cattle if they can't produce beef?
Maybe if we add a little fanfare and prestige to the feedlot tests it would attract more people. Maybe something about the tests could be adjusted to encourage participation? I have no idea what, I'm the last person I would ask about what needs to be done. I have some ideas, and a willingness to make a few waves if it will improve the breed in the long run. I was kind of counting on everyone else here on HT to discuss, debate, and decide what really needed to be done and how we should do it. So, either what I wrote is way off base, or nobody else wants to wants to make any waves. That's fine, but if I send this in by myself, I'm that one crazy person that thinks they know everything. I sure don't know everything, and maybe I got it all wrong and need to keep my mouth shut, but I have no intention of making a fuss that nobody is going to remember next week. There's no point in it. If we all do something together, then there's a group of members who want to improve the breed, and its much more likely to achieve its intended effect.
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Post by Glenn on Feb 25, 2015 14:37:38 GMT -6
I wish someone would compose something just to start and we could go from there. I am too busy with tax season to attempt it.
My input would be: 1. Please focus on the breeders that are producing range bulls for commercial customers. This is where the growth opportunity for the breed is. The show angle is nice for those that have it and make good money at it but it is a limited market with little growth potential relative to the cattle market complex.
As far as HT. I know "they" are aware of the site. I think the policy is "DON'T". Don't acknowledge, Don't participate. Acknowledging the site gives us more power. If they can 'pretend' we aren't here that makes things easier for them.
A quote:
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win"
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Post by larso on Feb 26, 2015 1:24:04 GMT -6
Quote " The only failure is not to try"
Quote " The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" Perhaps a bit severe for this situation, but certainly not for the world's problems currently. May be all the "good men" are giving your post serious thought and will post their thoughts soon.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 9:28:34 GMT -6
Quote " The only failure is not to try" Quote " The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" Perhaps a bit severe for this situation, but certainly not for the world's problems currently. May be all the "good men" are giving your post serious thought and will post their thoughts soon. Maybe some of those breeders who had been fighting the good fight have discovered over the past 10+ years that most of it isn't that relevant to their success (and their customers success). Maybe some of those breeders are putting their efforts into things that do have an impact on what they are trying to accomplish in the beef industry. That might be local or state organizations, alliances among other breeders, sending their cattle to feedlot or bull tests not under the AHA, setting up feeder calf sales, getting agricultural publications to print test and study results showing the benefits of Hereford and Hereford cross cattle, etc. All of these things are and have been happening without the guidance, leadership, or approval of the AHA. Shiloh, I agree with most of what you have on your list and I am not here to discourage you from making an effort. Maybe the next wave of breeders can be more successful in getting the association to move or continue to move in the correct direction. But there are some out here that just don't see where those efforts equals the relevancy anymore to raising good seedstock for our commercial customers. I may be wrong on that, but that is where we stand. I will never forget the words of a wise, very successful breeder about 10-12 years ago. "Just give me my papers and stay the hell out of my way." |
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Post by bookcliff on Feb 26, 2015 10:05:23 GMT -6
Quote " The only failure is not to try" Quote " The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" Perhaps a bit severe for this situation, but certainly not for the world's problems currently. May be all the "good men" are giving your post serious thought and will post their thoughts soon. Maybe some of those breeders who had been fighting the good fight have discovered over the past 10+ years that most of it isn't that relevant to their success (and their customers success). Maybe some of those breeders are putting their efforts into things that do have an impact on what they are trying to accomplish in the beef industry. That might be local or state organizations, alliances among other breeders, sending their cattle to feedlot or bull tests not under the AHA, setting up feeder calf sales, getting agricultural publications to print test and study results showing the benefits of Hereford and Hereford cross cattle, etc. All of these things are and have been happening without the guidance, leadership, or approval of the AHA. Shiloh, I agree with most of what you have on your list and I am not here to discourage you from making an effort. Maybe the next wave of breeders can be more successful in getting the association to move or continue to move in the correct direction. But there are some out here that just don't see where those efforts equals the relevancy anymore to raising good seedstock for our commercial customers. I may be wrong on that, but that is where we stand. I will never forget the words of a wise, very successful breeder about 10-12 years ago. "Just give me my papers and stay the hell out of my way." Ed's right. those of us like Ed an I who have fought this battle over the last 20 or so years and have done the things he has mentioned commend you and others willing to take up the fight like we did and I wish you success. but I hate to say this you will be swimming upstream against a pretty strong current. I for one have grown weary of that battle and no longer really care what happens outside of 60 miles from my place., my state or my friends within this breed. that is why my efforts are as of late comfined to our state and local area where we can make a difference. case in point.... 4 of us started the first, the longest running and the most successful hereford feeder calf sale in the nation but yet we had to "midnight requesition" the list of yards feedign CHB since AHA wouldn't give it to us to use in our feeder calf sale endevor adn even then we pretty much biult our own buyer base in spite of AHA, nto because of it. futhermore AHA has yet to ever reconginze that particular sale with does burn my ass when I see others who have nto been near as successful in this endevor even though have copied us get reconized as "inovators" GOP---AHA dumped it because the politics of it since the big boys were getting their butts kicked regularly by the little guys or no name like Ken Stephens, Tom Krauss, the Oleens, Gus Gustafson, the Hug boys, Berans just to name a few. so..........KHA took it over and we got vertually no support from AHA outside of Ames running the data (which Rob did a yeomans job of till he left AHA then Craig did it when he could find the time and Craig was always supportive) to this day in my mind I do not blame this on Craig but the successive gerations of the board. performance matters...... about 12 years ago several of us from all over the west got together and potitioned the assn to meet with the performance committe at the annual meeting which they allowed. we brought a list of things we felt that they needed to do, a few examples on this list were.... become a repository for PAP scores (pretty importan to teh higher elevation guys) same for shedding scores (once again pretty important for the SE boys) same thing for growsafe data ......... no new epds just becoming a repository for this data that breeders could acccess and incoperate actual kill data into out carcass EPD's (which Jerry Huth finally bulldozed thru a couple fo years ago, finally) things like that and nobobdy cared, just liek noboby cared when a bunch of us took a system already to go to AHA to have a combined EID/verifed hereford ID sytem ( like angus source or red angus supreme) for hereford feeder calves for $4 a head (with PI testing for another $2 a ehad) thru igenity to the board about 4 years ago. all we got was gazed over eyes. |
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Post by larso on Feb 26, 2015 14:20:40 GMT -6
The last thing I want to do is cast dispersion on any efforts that might have been made in the past, and I fully understand the attitude of "why bother", you get to a certain age and you don't have the energy any more, I've been there and done that myself. I happen to be the longest serving Judicial chairman in Australian Rugby so there have been many times when I felt I was banging my head against a brick wall, but I always welcomed input and listened to anybody who had constructive criticism.
My advice to Shiloh is cut your list down to 1 or 2 major issues that you think needs addressing and go from there, remember when splitting a rock with a chisel it is not the first hit that breaks it, it might be the 200th one but if you don't start with the first one you never get to the 200th.
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Post by shiloh on Feb 26, 2015 16:57:31 GMT -6
Bookcliff and Fhug - I was kind of thinking that was the case. I've been reading the old threads, and I know a lot of yall have been fighting for a lot of years to do these kinds of things. I know you're frustrated and sick of it, and I don't blame you. I don't have any delusions of grandeur, like I'm the first one to think of this and I'll show up and save the day. I know yall have been working at it most/all of your lives, and I just want to do whatever I can to help out the cause yall have been fighting for. The only favor I ask is for yall to lend me some of your wisdom and experience and let me know when I'm about to bang my head against the proverbial brick wall. If yall already had a petition and a meeting, and it didn't work, maybe we should try something else.
I really like what yall said about doing what you can locally. The list of ideas Bookcliff posted was kind of what I had in mind when I started this thread, just to kind of assess the damages and see what problems were the most pressing. I understand what you mean, Larso, when you say not to throw the book at them right off, but I'm starting to think that they read the book 20 years ago, and for whatever reason still don't care. This is just incomprehensible and unacceptable for an organization whose mission statement is to "provide the leadership to record, protect, promote and facilitate the production and consumption of Hereford beef."
The next idea(s) I present for your consideration:
What if we got together a kind of supplemental club within the AHA that caters to the beef production aspect of the breed, do our own feed tests, sales, etc. We could keep whatever records the AHA wont, do whatever programs the AHA wont, and still be a part of the AHA. Its a lot easier to maintain a database than it used to be...
I'm not asking for any commitment, just your opinions.
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Post by bookcliff on Feb 26, 2015 19:07:40 GMT -6
Bookcliff and Fhug - I was kind of thinking that was the case. I've been reading the old threads, and I know a lot of yall have been fighting for a lot of years to do these kinds of things. I know you're frustrated and sick of it, and I don't blame you. I don't have any delusions of grandeur, like I'm the first one to think of this and I'll show up and save the day. I know yall have been working at it most/all of your lives, and I just want to do whatever I can to help out the cause yall have been fighting for. The only favor I ask is for yall to lend me some of your wisdom and experience and let me know when I'm about to bang my head against the proverbial brick wall. If yall already had a petition and a meeting, and it didn't work, maybe we should try something else. I really like what yall said about doing what you can locally. The list of ideas Bookcliff posted was kind of what I had in mind when I started this thread, just to kind of assess the damages and see what problems were the most pressing. I understand what you mean, Larso, when you say not to throw the book at them right off, but I'm starting to think that they read the book 20 years ago, and for whatever reason still don't care. This is just incomprehensible and unacceptable for an organization whose mission statement is to "provide the leadership to record, protect, promote and facilitate the production and consumption of Hereford beef." The next idea(s) I present for your consideration: What if we got together a kind of supplemental club within the AHA that caters to the beef production aspect of the breed, do our own feed tests, sales, etc. We could keep whatever records the AHA wont, do whatever programs the AHA wont, and still be a part of the AHA. Its a lot easier to maintain a database than it used to be... I'm not asking for any commitment, just your opinions. what ever you need baby girl, just holler, the Kansas Mafia will be more than willing to help |
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Post by shiloh on Feb 27, 2015 8:56:57 GMT -6
Bookcliff you're a doll, don't let anyone tell you different. We're last minute scrambling getting stuff ready for Houston next week, (first show as "Noack Herefords", still don't have signs and crap like that, nothing like the last minute) but I will get back on this asap.
Here's my next question for anyone who doesn't mind chipping in: If you were in charge of the AHA, what would you start/add/require etc.?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 9:51:34 GMT -6
Bookcliff you're a doll, don't let anyone tell you different. We're last minute scrambling getting stuff ready for Houston next week, (first show as "Noack Herefords", still don't have signs and crap like that, nothing like the last minute) but I will get back on this asap. Here's my next question for anyone who doesn't mind chipping in: If you were in charge of the AHA, what would you start/add/require etc.?The letter I would send out to all members immediately upon assuming office:
Dear AHA Members, Why beat around the bush? As of today I have hired the professional services of Jason Benlevi. You may know him as the marketing genius behind Microsoft. For too long we have brought toenail clippers to a tank battle. We will not only be working overtime to erase the dock on Hereford beef but to find markets where our beef commands the premium price. Some may question why I have hired Mr. Benlevi instead of relying on the Hereford rancher to promote the breed. Well, if I want my transmission fixed I don't take it to the speedy oil change, I find a transmission mechanic.
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Post by George on Feb 27, 2015 11:13:29 GMT -6
Bookcliff you're a doll, don't let anyone tell you different. We're last minute scrambling getting stuff ready for Houston next week, (first show as "Noack Herefords", still don't have signs and crap like that, nothing like the last minute) but I will get back on this asap. Here's my next question for anyone who doesn't mind chipping in: If you were in charge of the AHA, what would you start/add/require etc.? I have been watching this thread with interest. I expected to see the replies from the grizzled veterans that have been posted. No doubt, it has to seem like beating one's head against the wall to know the efforts that have been made and how futile it has been. I have two major concerns regarding the future of the Hereford breed....and the AHA. 1. I used to think that a breeder could breed and raise "real world" cattle and still be competitive in the showring, but I have come to question that thesis in recent years. We have heifers going into the showring so fat that at least 75% of them would never become a decent pasture cow, but because they are showring winners, they are flushed early and often to produce more of their kind. Proven fertility and the ability to raise a good calf have been put on the back burner in favor of the pursuit of purple ribbons. The trend in the showring continues toward less and less frame size. I think some of that was justified, but we are currently near/at a point where some of the showring winners do not reflect what size cattle are best for most of the commercial cattle breeder's environment. To change that, I think all the showring cattle should be weighed, measured, and scanned and that information furnished to the judges. I also think a conscious decision should be made to pick judges for the National shows that have a background/interest in the beef producing aspect of the industry, not just someone who has produced a lot of show winners in the past. 2. I think there should be a serious look taken at EPDs and there should be information put out by the AHA on how low accuracy EPDs are unreliable and THEY SHOULD NOT BE THE SOLE...or EVEN THE PRIMARY...tool to use when selecting young virgin bulls or replacement females. There has been a steady positive "creep" in EPD values that I believe has been enhanced by the folks responsible for calculating the EPDs, and aided by either the collusion or the acquiescence of those "in charge" at the AHA. No doubt, some of that is motivated by "job security". Certain breeders have also learned how to "game" the EPD system as well. I would be kidding myself if I thought there would be any effort put forth by the AHA in these areas. The showring is BIG business! However, if the current trend doesn't change, I see that part of the breed more or less being split off and it becoming a segment that is totally separated from those breeders who are producing seedstock for the commercial cattle industry, much like the miniature Herefords currently are. And the EPDs are a significant "cash cow" for the organization and those breeders who are involved in making sure that the current EPD system remains the industry standard. But I do not think all those camps will be able to live under the same tent of one organization, if these trends continue. |
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Post by tartancowgirl on Feb 27, 2015 11:35:21 GMT -6
You know I think things are the same all over - I wish I had the courage to write a letter like this to our breed associations. I recently joined the local one, really to get a spot on the map published in the Journal, and I haven't been to any meetings yet, but the agendas would imply that they only ever discuss shows, judges etc. Those on the committees are very successful in the show ring but really they are big frogs in a very small puddle, and not doing much to promote Herefords as a worthwhile economically viable beef breed. Of course the show ring is a "shop window" of sorts but only to other show people and it annoys me to see them patting each other on the back and saying cheerfully that Hereford registrations are increasing, when they are still less than 10% of total beef calf registrations. Most farmers in Scotland are either indifferent to Herefords or actively hate them, often based on prejudice or hearsay rather than experience, and would not consider them, whereas the Angus is getting more popular. There is a lot of work for them to do other than discussing who is going to judge the next show.
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Post by bookcliff on Feb 27, 2015 12:50:14 GMT -6
Bookcliff you're a doll, don't let anyone tell you different. We're last minute scrambling getting stuff ready for Houston next week, (first show as "Noack Herefords", still don't have signs and crap like that, nothing like the last minute) but I will get back on this asap. Here's my next question for anyone who doesn't mind chipping in: If you were in charge of the AHA, what would you start/add/require etc.? I have been watching this thread with interest. I expected to see the replies from the grizzled veterans that have been posted. No doubt, it has to seem like beating one's head against the wall to know the efforts that have been made and how futile it has been. I have two major concerns regarding the future of the Hereford breed....and the AHA. 1. I used to think that a breeder could breed and raise "real world" cattle and still be competitive in the showring, but I have come to question that thesis in recent years. We have heifers going into the showring so fat that at least 75% of them would never become a decent pasture cow, but because they are showring winners, they are flushed early and often to produce more of their kind. Proven fertility and the ability to raise a good calf have been put on the back burner in favor of the pursuit of purple ribbons. The trend in the showring continues toward less and less frame size. I think some of that was justified, but we are currently near/at a point where some of the showring winners do not reflect what size cattle are best for most of the commercial cattle breeder's environment. To change that, I think all the showring cattle should be weighed, measured, and scanned and that information furnished to the judges. I also think a conscious decision should be made to pick judges for the National shows that have a background/interest in the beef producing aspect of the industry, not just someone who has produced a lot of show winners in the past. 2. I think there should be a serious look taken at EPDs and there should be information put out by the AHA on how low accuracy EPDs are unreliable and THEY SHOULD NOT BE THE SOLE...or EVEN THE PRIMARY...tool to use when selecting young virgin bulls or replacement females. There has been a steady positive "creep" in EPD values that I believe has been enhanced by the folks responsible for calculating the EPDs, and aided by either the collusion or the acquiescence of those "in charge" at the AHA. No doubt, some of that is motivated by "job security". Certain breeders have also learned how to "game" the EPD system as well. I would be kidding myself if I thought there would be any effort put forth by the AHA in these areas. The showring is BIG business! However, if the current trend doesn't change, I see that part of the breed more or less being split off and it becoming a segment that is totally separated from those breeders who are producing seedstock for the commercial cattle industry, much like the miniature Herefords currently are. And the EPDs are a significant "cash cow" for the organization and those breeders who are involved in making sure that the current EPD system remains the industry standard. But I do not think all those camps will be able to live under the same tent of one organization, if these trends continue. one of the best summations and then appraisal of the current situation I have heard or read |
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Post by shiloh on Feb 27, 2015 13:10:33 GMT -6
Bookcliff you're a doll, don't let anyone tell you different. We're last minute scrambling getting stuff ready for Houston next week, (first show as "Noack Herefords", still don't have signs and crap like that, nothing like the last minute) but I will get back on this asap. Here's my next question for anyone who doesn't mind chipping in: If you were in charge of the AHA, what would you start/add/require etc.? I have been watching this thread with interest. I expected to see the replies from the grizzled veterans that have been posted. No doubt, it has to seem like beating one's head against the wall to know the efforts that have been made and how futile it has been. I have two major concerns regarding the future of the Hereford breed....and the AHA. 1. I used to think that a breeder could breed and raise "real world" cattle and still be competitive in the showring, but I have come to question that thesis in recent years. We have heifers going into the showring so fat that at least 75% of them would never become a decent pasture cow, but because they are showring winners, they are flushed early and often to produce more of their kind. Proven fertility and the ability to raise a good calf have been put on the back burner in favor of the pursuit of purple ribbons. The trend in the showring continues toward less and less frame size. I think some of that was justified, but we are currently near/at a point where some of the showring winners do not reflect what size cattle are best for most of the commercial cattle breeder's environment. To change that, I think all the showring cattle should be weighed, measured, and scanned and that information furnished to the judges. I also think a conscious decision should be made to pick judges for the National shows that have a background/interest in the beef producing aspect of the industry, not just someone who has produced a lot of show winners in the past. 2. I think there should be a serious look taken at EPDs and there should be information put out by the AHA on how low accuracy EPDs are unreliable and THEY SHOULD NOT BE THE SOLE...or EVEN THE PRIMARY...tool to use when selecting young virgin bulls or replacement females. There has been a steady positive "creep" in EPD values that I believe has been enhanced by the folks responsible for calculating the EPDs, and aided by either the collusion or the acquiescence of those "in charge" at the AHA. No doubt, some of that is motivated by "job security". Certain breeders have also learned how to "game" the EPD system as well. I would be kidding myself if I thought there would be any effort put forth by the AHA in these areas. The showring is BIG business! However, if the current trend doesn't change, I see that part of the breed more or less being split off and it becoming a segment that is totally separated from those breeders who are producing seedstock for the commercial cattle industry, much like the miniature Herefords currently are. And the EPDs are a significant "cash cow" for the organization and those breeders who are involved in making sure that the current EPD system remains the industry standard. But I do not think all those camps will be able to live under the same tent of one organization, if these trends continue. George - I've been thinking about the show thing and how it used to (way back) be the way to choose your breeding stock because they were the best. I think you hit the nail on the head with the part about picking judges from people who win shows instead of people who produce beef. It's like when you make a paper copy, and it looks just like the original, but if you copy the copy, and copy that copy etc. eventually it's so blurred and messed up that you can't even tell what the original was supposed to be. That's why you always keep the original document to make copies. The show ring seems to have lost the original purpose of the Hereford, and what we have left is an unintelligible facsimile. Regarding what you said about EPDs, I have been wanting to (for science of course) conduct a semi-official study where you take a pasture and replace half of the cows with extremely small frame/miniature registered cows, and then record the effect of this situation on the EPDs and DODs. Should be interesting... |
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Post by larso on Feb 27, 2015 15:53:42 GMT -6
George- At the 2 national shows here we have a vendors committee and they set the ground rules. Each bull must be negative to PI(Bovine Viral Diarrhoea Virus) this test is done by way of hair samples sent to the Department of Primary Industries weeks before the show, each bull must be semen tested no later than 50 days before the show and past the industry standard, he must also have a vet cert. of soundness, at the Hereford National they have their own vets there to examine the bulls, and it is not uncommon to have bulls thrown out. Then the day before the show all bulls are weighed , scanned, identities' checked and if Polled examined to make sure they don't have scurs. The weight, EMA, and the fat depth are then displayed on the card around the neck of the bull in the ring and also on his breeding card in the tie up stalls. The vendors committee has full control of the show and sale and it's members are elected by those breeders who participate at the show. The AHA has no direct control, they may suggest something but they do not control it, all decisions are made by the vendors. There has been times when they (AHA) have been told to keep their nose out of it. Selecting the right judge can sometimes be a headache and not always acceptable by everybody but the sale the next day you get the chance to make your own decision.
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Post by larso on Feb 27, 2015 16:29:50 GMT -6
One other thing I forgot to say is that the vendors committee set the start up price on the bulls which I think is $3500 this year, not a lot but it does put a floor in the market. These 2 National show and sales are the ones that are considered the most prestige's in the country and far out weigh any Royal show.
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Post by elkwc on Feb 27, 2015 17:29:37 GMT -6
I have been watching this thread with interest. I expected to see the replies from the grizzled veterans that have been posted. No doubt, it has to seem like beating one's head against the wall to know the efforts that have been made and how futile it has been. I have two major concerns regarding the future of the Hereford breed....and the AHA. 1. I used to think that a breeder could breed and raise "real world" cattle and still be competitive in the showring, but I have come to question that thesis in recent years. We have heifers going into the showring so fat that at least 75% of them would never become a decent pasture cow, but because they are showring winners, they are flushed early and often to produce more of their kind. Proven fertility and the ability to raise a good calf have been put on the back burner in favor of the pursuit of purple ribbons. The trend in the showring continues toward less and less frame size. I think some of that was justified, but we are currently near/at a point where some of the showring winners do not reflect what size cattle are best for most of the commercial cattle breeder's environment. To change that, I think all the showring cattle should be weighed, measured, and scanned and that information furnished to the judges. I also think a conscious decision should be made to pick judges for the National shows that have a background/interest in the beef producing aspect of the industry, not just someone who has produced a lot of show winners in the past. 2. I think there should be a serious look taken at EPDs and there should be information put out by the AHA on how low accuracy EPDs are unreliable and THEY SHOULD NOT BE THE SOLE...or EVEN THE PRIMARY...tool to use when selecting young virgin bulls or replacement females. There has been a steady positive "creep" in EPD values that I believe has been enhanced by the folks responsible for calculating the EPDs, and aided by either the collusion or the acquiescence of those "in charge" at the AHA. No doubt, some of that is motivated by "job security". Certain breeders have also learned how to "game" the EPD system as well. I would be kidding myself if I thought there would be any effort put forth by the AHA in these areas. The showring is BIG business! However, if the current trend doesn't change, I see that part of the breed more or less being split off and it becoming a segment that is totally separated from those breeders who are producing seedstock for the commercial cattle industry, much like the miniature Herefords currently are. And the EPDs are a significant "cash cow" for the organization and those breeders who are involved in making sure that the current EPD system remains the industry standard. But I do not think all those camps will be able to live under the same tent of one organization, if these trends continue. George - I've been thinking about the show thing and how it used to (way back) be the way to choose your breeding stock because they were the best. I think you hit the nail on the head with the part about picking judges from people who win shows instead of people who produce beef. It's like when you make a paper copy, and it looks just like the original, but if you copy the copy, and copy that copy etc. eventually it's so blurred and messed up that you can't even tell what the original was supposed to be. That's why you always keep the original document to make copies. The show ring seems to have lost the original purpose of the Hereford, and what we have left is an unintelligible facsimile. Regarding what you said about EPDs, I have been wanting to (for science of course) conduct a semi-official study where you take a pasture and replace half of the cows with extremely small frame/miniature registered cows, and then record the effect of this situation on the EPDs and DODs. Should be interesting... "I think you hit the nail on the head with the part about picking judges from people who win shows instead of people who produce beef." Shiloh that is the problem I've seen in the last year since I've been looking at Herefords again. It starts from the top and you see it in every action the AHA does. Look at the big meeting they had in MO. Instead of having feeders, feedlot managers, packer buyers and successful commercial breeders who use Herefords as speakers they had breeders from other breeds and speakers from the academia world. Look at the results of the EPD's the academia world have created. I'm not against progress but they need to include input from those who are on the ground level. Instead you see remarks like Craig made last year along the lines that the commercial breeder doesn't care about soundness he leaves that up to the seedstock producer. That is far from fact at least with the commercial breeders I know. Most are like myself and start any evaluation with the feet and legs. Many of the Horned breeders seem to be concerned with what the commercial breeders needs to be competitive and making an effort to produce seedstock to assist them in their efforts. Many of the polled breeders seem intent on trying to force the showring types on the commercial man and then complaining when they can't sell them. Unless the AHA becomes concerned with what the real world demands instead of the glitter of the show ring it will be up to individual breeders to make the decision to raise the right kind. |
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Post by shiloh on Feb 27, 2015 18:11:42 GMT -6
I went to the genetic summit, and while you did need rubber boots to get through about the first half of it, I thought they had some pretty solid speakers towards the end. The association was pushing the EPDs and the genomic testing, pretty hard, but they didn't talk much about specific breeding strategies or traits to focus on like I thought they would. I would more accurately call it a ranch management seminar, there wasn't a lot of talk about genetics, besides to say how important they are, and you have to make the decisions that are right for you. I couldn't remember enough to tell you about the speakers, so I copy and pasted pieces of what i thought were the better speaker's bios from www.herefordgeneticsummit.com/speaker-bios/ I was particularly impressed with Don Schiefelbein. I have the exact numbers written down, but I'm thinking he buys back something like 2,000 calves from his bull customers ever year, keeps the best 500 to feed out himself and sells the rest. He bought the local sale barn to market his cattle. I can't remember much else besides thinking, "This guy is a genius." He said that the people who write the checks make the rules, so he made sure he was the one writing the checks for his customers so that they profited from using his genetics. I don't know much about these guys, but judging by their presentations, they weren't exactly fluff and puff idiots... Don't get me wrong, the Association has issues, but I thought the genetic summit was one of their brighter moments... G. Kee Jim received his doctor of veterinary medicine (DVM) in 1983 from the Western College of Veterinary Medicine, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. He is the founding partner of Feedlot Health Management Services Ltd. (FHMS), and the 2008 recipient of the American Association of Bovine Practitioner’s Practitioner of the Year award. His company — G.K Jim Farms — and affiliated companies — Cattlinc Inc., Silverado Cattle Inc., Taweel Cattle Co. Ltd., Korova Feeders Ltd., and Diamond Feeders — are major players in the Canadian and U.S. cattle industries through ownership of cows, backgrounding cattle, grass cattle and feedlot cattle. In addition, Kee has served on the board of directors of several beef industry groups including the Alberta Cattle Feeders’ Association, the Canadian Cattlemen’s Association, Livestock Identification Services Ltd., the Canadian Cattle Identification Agency, the Canada Beef Export Federation, and the Alberta Livestock and Meat Agency. Also, he has served as board chair of the Canada Beef Export Federation and vice chairman of the Alberta Cattle Feeder’s Association. Randall Raymond, DVM, is the director of research and veterinary services for Simplot Livestock Co. His responsibilities include management of animal health for Simplot’s two large feed yards and 14 cow-calf operations, its commercial and internal research programs, and its genetic improvement systems. Galen Fink, Fink Beef Genetics, Randolph, Kan., markets 700-900 Angus and Charolais cattle per year and focuses on producing balanced cattle through use of high-accuracy expected progeny differences (EPDs). The Fink Beef Genetics program has now grown into one of the top 25 largest seedstock operations ranked by NCBA since 2004. The Finks market approximately 700 bulls each year nationwide. Females are sold through production sales and private treaty. They rented land until purchasing their Randolph, Kan., headquarters in the spring of 2006. Out-of-the-box thinking has garnered much program growth. They grow their bulls at a rate of 2 lb. per day to avoid excess fat. They use controlled matings and ownership on about 600 females and implant approximately 1,000-1,200 embryos each year. Since the fall 2011, many of these embryos have been sexed males. Don Schiefelbein, Kimball, Minn., is president of Schiefelbein Farms LLC, of which he is a partner with all seven of his brothers (brother Bill died in 1992), his father and two nephews. All family owned and operated, Schiefelbein Farms is home to more than 750 registered Angus cows. The Schiefelbein family annually AIs approximately 1,000 registered Angus females through an intensive synchronization program and inserts an additional 150 embryos into registered Angus recipients. The program currently markets more than 350 bulls to commercial and seedstock clients throughout the U.S. The Schiefelbein operation is routinely among the largest producers of Angus Pathfinder® cows in the nation. The family created a unique customer buy-back program in 1992. This cattle-feeding program purchases high-quality calves sired by Schiefelbein genetics and feeds them for a variety of premium programs. |
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Post by elkwc on Feb 28, 2015 8:56:17 GMT -6
Shiloh I'm glad that you feel that you benefitted from attending it. I've read others who didn't. One who left early because he felt the information wasn't relevant to his operation and that of his clients. The fact is there is Hereford breeders who are doing the very same type of practices these speakers are but for some reason the AHA would rather showcase a breeder of another breed rather than their own breeders. I could list many instances of breeders I know who equal the speakers they had in their own right. But in the end most of these aren't relevant to the commercial breeder. One manager of a 50,000 hd or greater lot handles more cattle than all those you listed. Them and their buyers are who influences what we receive when we market our cattle whether that is as calves or feeders unless we retain ownership and then the packer buyer decides that. In the end the packer is the one who sets the mark for what the commercial man recceives by what he will pay top dollar for. And by the type being raised by many of the supposedly prominent breeders now they need to learn what the feeder and packer wants so they can provide it to the commercial breeder. I've seen progeny of bulls from one of the speakers sell along with progeny from bulls from a very prominent herd in KS and neither consistently sell at the top. I could list names of breeders whose bulls sire progeny that consistently sell at the top but won't. They cover several breeds. It seems to me that marketing and salemanship works for the registered breeders of all breeds. It sure doesn't for the commercial breeder. When they enter the sale ring they are judged by quality and type and priced accordingly.
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but if they're in control, there's no excuse not to have a forum. Then when people have problems, they could post them up like customer support, other people could read it, and it might even save the AHA time answering questions. I realize I'm being optimistic, but that's kind of the point of this whole thing.
