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Post by whiteface on Feb 28, 2015 22:33:55 GMT -6
No offense taken, I just don't get why as Hereford breeders there are still people out there with a bias against polleds still. We're one breed and I just don't find it productive to be saying 1 type of Hereford is better than the other because of horned status. It's just like how people get frustrated with the stigma people put on Herefords about pinkeye and prolapse. Maybe Glenn should start up Horned Hereford Talk and Polled Hereford Talk??? Seriously, SPH its kind of like convincing an old fart that loves to beat the dirt to death with a plow, disc and field cultivator to switch to no till farming. Out of their own inability and stubborness they aren't going to change or even if you show them the benefits of simply minimal till/mulch till - the very minimum of incorporating the 2 practices. All it takes is a little open mindedness. I'm more and more convinced we're lacking that on here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 23:22:51 GMT -6
This isn't about horned and polled. Just because they have horns don't make em good, and just because they are polled don't make em bad. Its about PERFORMANCE including a long list of traits that have already been stated on this board. Our herd has been nothing but horned for over 100 years. Over the past several years, we've had some calls from people who wanted "polled". Sometimes its a little tough to tell people what they should have, when they have already made up their mind they want something else. We got tired of losing some potential sales. We aren't going to give up the horns, but we decided to incorporate polled genetics into some of our cattle. We also aren't willing to give up any of the positive traits we've already established. We've searched far and wide to find proven performance cattle who happen to be polled. Gotta have more proof than those pretty blue boxes or pimped by your local bull stud. Seen too many cattle with no muscle, no guts and no butt, polled and horned. Time will tell, but we think we've found some genetics that might work. To my knowledge the offspring have not walked the tanbark at your favorite circus, aka stock show.
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Post by larso on Mar 1, 2015 2:25:06 GMT -6
I've seen good Horney's and I've seen sh..t Horney's, I've seen good pollies and I've seen sh..t pollies, there can be just as much variance between a breed as there is between different breeds but surely there needs to be a united front. The enemy is not each other, the enemy is the massive market dominance that Angus have over us. It's funny I hardly ever hear mentioned on here Charolaises or Shorthorns or any other breed being a threat, it's Angus that have taken our markets. Nothing p.sses me off more than going to some Hereford talk or field day and the speaker starts telling us what the Angus are doing, as if that adds weight to what he's saying. Promote the Hereford for it's virtues, concentrate on addressing areas that need improving and let's be leaders rather than followers.(sorry fellows ,it's been very hot here today and I've been on the end of a pick and shovel, I probably should have waited till tomorrow to make a comment.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 7:26:03 GMT -6
Lot of good comments. We should be more united in our efforts to improve the breed and it starts by working together not against each other. Regarding the Angus I do think they have lost some ground around here not only to their herefords but red angus and semmintals are selling better than the black angus lately at least around us they seem to be in more demand than black angus. I dont think it's necessarily the angus we're competing directly against as other breeds are rapidly improving and making dents in the angus market as well. I realize there are guys that have been horned breeders a long time and you just won't change that mindset but my point was instead of downgrading polled cattle and essentially thinking of them as competition why cant polled and horned breeders work together as we all want to put the best cattle out there because if you dont believe in what your fellow breeder is working towards then we have a problem with I our own breed to address too. Thats what is the most frustrating when you feel like some of your own fellow breeders see you as the enemy.
One last thing, timbernt you said we listen to jack ward and not commercial breeders and I disagree with that statement as nearly all our bull buyers are commercial breeders and if we were not producing a bull they want to use then we wouldnt be getting the amount of interest that we do. Do we take into consideration things jack talks about, sure but nothing anyone says in this business should be taken as gospel for success. We want to breed cattle that will work not only in our own program but in a commercial herd too. I think we all have similar goals but just different ways of reaching them based on regional variables and the types of genetics we've used over the years
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 8:07:21 GMT -6
When using genetics it is helpful to view DNA as a range of possibilities as opposed to a carved in stone certainty. Genotype is only half of the equation. Phenotype is the genotype plus environment.
This fall was dry and warm. Birthweights across all of the ABC commercial cows were low. Even the Charolais sired calves were in the upper 60's and lower 70's. This winter has been cold and wet. The birthweights have been 10 pounds heavier on average.
Sexual reproduction is notoriously fickle. It makes life a lot simpler to concentrate on the things you can control: stocking rates, water management, soil enhancement, forage types, etc. You can also control how many bulls you think you can sell in your market. A lot of the animosity seems to be centered around bull sales. The writing on the wall is screaming that bull sales are a shrinking and unreliable income option for the registered breeder.
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Post by picketwire on Mar 1, 2015 10:01:13 GMT -6
I Have been thinking a lot on how best to get my point across of the frustrations of what goes on in this deal with everything. Everybody touches on about 15% and in most things in this world 15% just aint good enough. Until we can all move forward with an open mind and forget about sides we will not make any progress. It begins with accepting the things that are fact and right now there's too many people that just can't move past that. We have loads of potential but we also have too many not working with their eyes open and ears working. I would absolutely be tickled to identify multiple genetic sources that can keep pace with my current choices. There are two problems with that. #1 I am very limited with the factory, small herd and right now very limited possibilities to expand. Working on that but it is slow so I can ill afford any setbacks. #2. The '2nd tool' that is supposed to help with that is broken and I don't have enough time to travel everywhere to find what I need or think I need. That is where I hope HT can help. For the breeders that are polled it is important to please understand that I very well know you select based on multiple traits and maybe we share 50 to 70% in common on those traits but that DOES NOT WORK in my environment. Before the herd here started shrinking, we sampled a lot of different polled genetics and the truth here is only one panned out and it was I believe due to a healthy dose of L1. I maybe wrong but it is fact here. Did I sample all, no and I have been pretty open and honest about that. Now that also doesn't mean I look at L1 with a jaundiced eye. I truly am super critical of everything and probably too much so. The reasons why the rest of the polled I sampled failed in order of most common to least is this: did not perform poundwise, did not rebreed, did not raise a marketable calf, bad eyes, not sound, not marketable(color pattern). Now before I get lambasted here is the list of reasons why the horned side that doesn't stay gets the walking papers: did not perform poundwise, failed to rebreed, not marketable(color pattern), not sound. Rebreed includes failing to pass semen test and no performance poundwise includes not surviving at higher elevation. So for me whether or not it has horns is way down on the list. I am not always confident the rest of the world agrees! That is also the story I hear from those who buy our genetics so that is where I continue to place emphasis. I truly hope there will be a day when we can all have a meaningful discussion about strengths and weaknesses without it falling back to just one trait, and someday it will and I hope we all get to see it but it ain't here yet.
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Post by picketwire on Mar 1, 2015 10:06:09 GMT -6
Just to add this, my frustrations with the office in KC has everything to do with the problems of not tackling enough of the big picture so to speak. Not enough multiple trait selection going on.
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