talin
Yearling
Posts: 201
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Post by talin on Jan 24, 2015 22:19:09 GMT -6
Have a 3 yo cow bought as a heifer from a large breeder 4 months bred starting to water mild proptosis and minimal mass lower lid vet says no treatment would require enucliation. ? sell now while she has marginal salvage value or try and wait out pregnancy and risk losing the salvage value but getting the calf? Second ? I bought her a year and half ago is this a situation that a breeder should make right?
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Post by timbernt on Jan 24, 2015 22:39:52 GMT -6
Treatment with BCG at this stage will probably stop the growth. Cost is about $200 to your vet. Simply inject (about 1 cc) into the effected area with a TB syringe. Easily done in a head gate with a halter to pull the head around. No other restraint needed. In my experience you will be able to gain at least a year without losing market value. As far as warranty or genetics you are the one to ask yourself that question.
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talin
Yearling
Posts: 201
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Post by talin on Jan 25, 2015 5:54:09 GMT -6
Fascinating I just returned from a lung cancer meeting and immunomodulation of squamous cell is the future. BCG is basically an extreme irritant used extensively in the 70's but never showed a significant advantvantage although still used for superficial bladder cancer. That is easy and cheap enough I thought about a radioactive plaque but the licensure etc would be prohibitive and the topical 5 FU's are not effective for invasive. My hope is it would be similar to the melanomas in grey horses and be slow growing
Think this was fate telling me to stay with my own kind first group of pure horned cattle I have had on the place.
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Post by guffeygal on Jan 25, 2015 9:17:54 GMT -6
As for the guarantee, It would not hurt to ask the breeder. To quote your former State Secretary Guy Shull "You won,t know until you ask."
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Post by bookcliff on Jan 25, 2015 11:18:08 GMT -6
Have a 3 yo cow bought as a heifer from a large breeder 4 months bred starting to water mild proptosis and minimal mass lower lid vet says no treatment would require enucliation. ? sell now while she has marginal salvage value or try and wait out pregnancy and risk losing the salvage value but getting the calf? Second ? I bought her a year and half ago is this a situation that a breeder should make right? hate to say it, but good luck. it sure seems that guys who pervay these kind of issues don't often see it as their problem. I agree with TIm on this, get her to your vet and get it addressed as soon as possible either via the injection he mentioned, or if not to advanced, freezing via cyro with liquid nitrogen (the mentiod my vet prefers to use, only seen him do it one time but it damn sure worked). it will allow you to get her shipped while she still has salvage value. the thing about cancer eye these days, as far as what the boys up Gibbon Packing(where I sell cull cows) do with em these days, they will look at em when they get unloaded and their a 50/50 chance they will reject em, and even if they do accept em you run a pretty good chance of the cow being tanked and you recieve zip on her. thats why the cull cow buyers at the salebarn won't pay hardly anything at all for one they think may have it nowadays. so in my mind you best get her "addressed" before you ship her so she does bring salvage value. if choose to not adress it, you run a pretty good chance of being religated to just having to shoot her. |
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talin
Yearling
Posts: 201
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Post by talin on Jan 25, 2015 11:31:37 GMT -6
Bookcliff
Very interesting agree I am going to bring her back to the house and see what I can do the vets where she is don't like messing with it I have treated probably 150 periorbital human skin and lacrimal tumors but will be a bit hobbled without my "Ray" gun my day job is Radiation Oncology. We have some hungry vets around they do a nice job and don't mind back seat drivers I am certain we can figure something out.
I saw an interesting thing at a sale this summer in southern Oklahoma a pen of Hereford cows 2 of which had noticeable severe eye cancers ie 1/2 the ant face rest were pretty gnarly. I really wondered what it was all about for dog food? And why they would be collecting them
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Post by strojanherefords on Jan 25, 2015 13:23:37 GMT -6
I consider a cancer eye at three years old to be a "manufacturers defect" and the breeder should make it right with you. If the breeder does not make it right, then we should know what the heifer was so we do not suffer the same misfortune.
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Post by kph on Jan 25, 2015 14:30:04 GMT -6
Something like cancer eye 1 1/2 years after the sale is way above and beyond any standard breeders guarantee and something I would never even consider asking for compensation on. If he offers to do anything on it then that's great and you should sing his praises from the rooftops, but if not then there should be no criticism given.
We as breeders can't be expected to cover health issues unrelated to fertility or soundness especially long term after the sale as a matter of course. Some things are just part of the cattle business.
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Post by tartancowgirl on Jan 25, 2015 15:48:32 GMT -6
It's very unfortunate in such a young cow. Is this definitely considered an inherited problem and is it known how it is transmitted?
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talin
Yearling
Posts: 201
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Post by talin on Jan 25, 2015 19:19:57 GMT -6
I have given a lot of thought on this cow today reviewed her breeding and it is straight horned line bred I won't publicly out the breeder very reputable and believes in what he is doing. I didn't pay a large premium and am happy in general with these cattle.
However after 25 years of dealing with Oncology including time at St Jude Children's I can say that a 3 yo would be suspect to have a genetic component to this malignancy. That doesn't mean anything except if Herefords have a problem then we need to identify it and fix it. I don't think its a white face my Charlois don't have this problem.
This is a horrible issue a visual disturbing and economically devastating problem. It's been awhile since I have been in cattle but I remember this being an old cow disease maybe this is a fluke but a worrisome development.. I called the local auction barn and I can't ethically sell this cow into a possible human food supply chain even if I treat her. Bottom line I fix her or dispose of her.
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Post by nicky on Jan 25, 2015 20:13:46 GMT -6
Something like cancer eye 1 1/2 years after the sale is way above and beyond any standard breeders guarantee and something I would never even consider asking for compensation on. If he offers to do anything on it then that's great and you should sing his praises from the rooftops, but if not then there should be no criticism given. We as breeders can't be expected to cover health issues unrelated to fertility or soundness especially long term after the sale as a matter of course. Some things are just part of the cattle business. I would disagree with this. While I wouldn't be surprised if the breeder doesn't do something, they should. Cancer eye, prolapse, and bad udders are why more commercial people won't use herefords. If more breeders would take care of the problem we'd get more people using Herefords! |
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Post by jayh on Jan 25, 2015 20:45:13 GMT -6
Something like cancer eye 1 1/2 years after the sale is way above and beyond any standard breeders guarantee and something I would never even consider asking for compensation on. If he offers to do anything on it then that's great and you should sing his praises from the rooftops, but if not then there should be no criticism given. We as breeders can't be expected to cover health issues unrelated to fertility or soundness especially long term after the sale as a matter of course. Some things are just part of the cattle business. I would disagree with this. While I wouldn't be surprised if the breeder doesn't do something, they should. Cancer eye, prolapse, and bad udders are why more commercial people won't use herefords. If more breeders would take care of the problem we'd get more people using Herefords! Yep |
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Post by hoekland on Jan 25, 2015 22:51:27 GMT -6
I consider a cancer eye at three years old to be a "manufacturers defect" and the breeder should make it right with you. If the breeder does not make it right, then we should know what the heifer was so we do not suffer the same misfortune. I agree, typically cancer eye is only seen in cattle 8 years or older and even then I see it as a "manufacturer's defect" although I would not hold the breeder responsible for an animal that age, even if I bought the animal as an old cow as I knew the risk involved and would have paid accordingly. If a 3 year old that I bought get cancer eye I see it as my responsibility to the breed to let the breeder know and I would expect of him to make it right. |
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Post by larso on Jan 26, 2015 15:10:56 GMT -6
Just my opinion, but I've always considered my 1st loss the cheapest, in other words cull her now. If she was to have a female calf that was a keeper you are only perpetuating the problem. There has been many times when I have had to cull a certain animal that I've really liked and it hurt me to have to do it, but at the end of the day there is satisfaction in knowing you have done the right thing for the breed.
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Post by btlrupert on Jan 26, 2015 21:33:11 GMT -6
Been there done that ! Cut her head off or let her calve and gamble and then send both to the sale barn.. I do feel your pain.
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Post by herfdog on Jan 27, 2015 8:18:17 GMT -6
If I was to sell an animal and it got cancer eye any time I would want to know about it. And second I would make it right. That would go the same for a prolapse.
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Post by kph on Jan 27, 2015 11:34:07 GMT -6
So would I, and have done so more than once. The point is, it shouldn't be expected or assumed, and the breeder's reputation shouldn't be tarnished for sticking to the standard breeders guarantee, unless it was specified before the sale. If I buy something, unless it's infertile I figure I'm taking my chances with other health problems.
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